Cabin crew face trial after speaking up about icing on the wing
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Well if ex is enjoying large alimony payments, some may find satisfaction at making ex pay fat lawyer fees -- to say nothing of the prospect of a favorable judgement being paid back out of said alimony
Provided of course that you have a good case that will persuade a jury; if not, the downside is that you will get stuck with her costs and end up in an even more penurious existence
Provided of course that you have a good case that will persuade a jury; if not, the downside is that you will get stuck with her costs and end up in an even more penurious existence
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Are you guys for real?
It is fascinating but a bit scary to read what sort of thoughts hit the screen here, sometimes.
We have one fellow who thinks the flight attendants are merely "flying waitresses," another who doesn't even know that they are crew members and a third who seems to think that the well-documented risks of frost contamination can safely be ignored, just because... yet according to their profiles they are all professional aviators!
I realise that there can be a wide range of opinions on various topics, usually more driven by personality than fact but is this the freedom of anonymity letting some of us go off the edge of the screen? Particularly, going into print to show contempt ("flying waitresses"), ignorance (not knowing the cabin crew is, umm, "crew") or a willingness to violate a regulation (3 inches of ice is no problem so why de-ice?). This is the sort of stuff we used to share in the privacy (?) of a bar, not as here in semi-public. Remember, the reptiles are watching us!
Is this why they have that warning about the people who post not necessarily being who they say they are? Golly, I hope so!
We have one fellow who thinks the flight attendants are merely "flying waitresses," another who doesn't even know that they are crew members and a third who seems to think that the well-documented risks of frost contamination can safely be ignored, just because... yet according to their profiles they are all professional aviators!
I realise that there can be a wide range of opinions on various topics, usually more driven by personality than fact but is this the freedom of anonymity letting some of us go off the edge of the screen? Particularly, going into print to show contempt ("flying waitresses"), ignorance (not knowing the cabin crew is, umm, "crew") or a willingness to violate a regulation (3 inches of ice is no problem so why de-ice?). This is the sort of stuff we used to share in the privacy (?) of a bar, not as here in semi-public. Remember, the reptiles are watching us!
Is this why they have that warning about the people who post not necessarily being who they say they are? Golly, I hope so!
Gents,
If I might make a few observations here:
I'm surprised, although I probably shouldn't be, at the speed with which a few have posted their support for the Cabin Crew and also been quick to lambaste the FO. This is based on nothing more than an article written in a newspaper. Aren't we normally, as a profession, fairly derisory and cynical about the level of journalism when it comes to articles about the aviation industry written in the mainstream press??
There are also a few posts that contain disbelief that this Captain would allow the FO to make a decision as to the need to de-ice. It's worth noting that until the last 12 months, USAir hadn't hired in almost 10 years and that there is every reason to believe that if this was an A320/B737, the FO has probably been with the company for at least 18 years and was very likely a Captain prior to 9-11. I don't know about others but I fly with FO's that have not only the initiative and common sense but also the experience to work out if we need to de-ice. If not then I check, myself.
And thirdly, although not a Yank, I've flown in the US for the last 10 years and I know USAir's deicing procedure intimately. It's simple: Clean Aircraft Concept. To think that any professional pilot whether Captain or FO at USAir would knowingly not de-ice, when it's obviously needed, is asinine. Whether Euro, Aussie or American, we all know what happens when an airliner tries to take off with contaminated wings. The results have been widely documented.
Personally, I think that this has more to do with a personal grudge than de-icing.
If I might make a few observations here:
I'm surprised, although I probably shouldn't be, at the speed with which a few have posted their support for the Cabin Crew and also been quick to lambaste the FO. This is based on nothing more than an article written in a newspaper. Aren't we normally, as a profession, fairly derisory and cynical about the level of journalism when it comes to articles about the aviation industry written in the mainstream press??
There are also a few posts that contain disbelief that this Captain would allow the FO to make a decision as to the need to de-ice. It's worth noting that until the last 12 months, USAir hadn't hired in almost 10 years and that there is every reason to believe that if this was an A320/B737, the FO has probably been with the company for at least 18 years and was very likely a Captain prior to 9-11. I don't know about others but I fly with FO's that have not only the initiative and common sense but also the experience to work out if we need to de-ice. If not then I check, myself.
And thirdly, although not a Yank, I've flown in the US for the last 10 years and I know USAir's deicing procedure intimately. It's simple: Clean Aircraft Concept. To think that any professional pilot whether Captain or FO at USAir would knowingly not de-ice, when it's obviously needed, is asinine. Whether Euro, Aussie or American, we all know what happens when an airliner tries to take off with contaminated wings. The results have been widely documented.
Personally, I think that this has more to do with a personal grudge than de-icing.
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With the widespread usage of computerised rostering systems, would it not have been better if the company had used a little foresight and avoided rostering Mr & (ex) Mrs on the same flight? 
Not too difficult to administer and certainly happens in other companies if a "personal" relationship is obviously too difficult, even when it hasn't involved previous carnal knowledge & alimony payments.
And to those of you who are now going to say "they are all professionals they should just get on with it", are you PERSONALLY familiar with the inspiration for the (misquoted in this instance from the historically correct) quote " Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" ?
If you are not. . . . . . I am very happy for you, but I can assure you this crew combination is unworkable, and was fated to end in tears at some stage.
Not too difficult to administer and certainly happens in other companies if a "personal" relationship is obviously too difficult, even when it hasn't involved previous carnal knowledge & alimony payments.
And to those of you who are now going to say "they are all professionals they should just get on with it", are you PERSONALLY familiar with the inspiration for the (misquoted in this instance from the historically correct) quote " Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" ?
If you are not. . . . . . I am very happy for you, but I can assure you this crew combination is unworkable, and was fated to end in tears at some stage.
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Are You Sure?
"One of the flight attendants involved is the F/O's ex-wife, she is receiving large sums monthly in the form of alimony payments, taken directly from his paycheck by court order. The post-marital relationship continues to be a somewhat frigid one, any thaw previously considered may now be well out of reach."
Unless the F/O is independently wealthy, I doubt "Large sums.. alimony." Last I knew, F/O pay was meager. And unless there were a great pay disparity between them, I would doubt there were any alimony involved at all. Also, wasn't this before the merger?
GB
Unless the F/O is independently wealthy, I doubt "Large sums.. alimony." Last I knew, F/O pay was meager. And unless there were a great pay disparity between them, I would doubt there were any alimony involved at all. Also, wasn't this before the merger?
GB
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Perhaps by "large sums" the writer really meant "large share". Now that would be grounds for a law suit as and when the opportunity offered itself. Why do I get the feeling that there's an avaricious, opportunistic member of the oldest profession in the background here, manipulating all concerned for his or her financial gain and their detriment?
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I'm intrigued to know how Bugg Smasher is so well acquainted with the case that he can tell us not only about the divorce and the alimony, but also about the probable future relations between the ex-spouses.
Is this information in the public domain somewhere?
Is this information in the public domain somewhere?
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I reported a pilot to my company and like the cabin crew in this case, all I got was a **** storm for my troubles.
It wasn't until we had to make an emergency landing a week later that anyone believed me. Pilot had a fit at 10,000ft, he was suffering from vertigo but had managed to keep it secret as he was a helicopter pilot. Unfortunately our operation required a high level flight to calibrate our instruments.
I was made to feel like traitor for exposing his 'little' problem.
There seems to be an unwritten rule between pilots that they will never support criticism of another pilot, unless it's from a pilot. Similar to the way attorneys behave.
It wasn't until we had to make an emergency landing a week later that anyone believed me. Pilot had a fit at 10,000ft, he was suffering from vertigo but had managed to keep it secret as he was a helicopter pilot. Unfortunately our operation required a high level flight to calibrate our instruments.
I was made to feel like traitor for exposing his 'little' problem.
There seems to be an unwritten rule between pilots that they will never support criticism of another pilot, unless it's from a pilot. Similar to the way attorneys behave.
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spacepilot . the question is " did you have the integrity to tell him you were concerned and you were going to take it higher , therefore allowing him/her the option too get himself the help required? " , if you did this then thats ok . if you simply went ahead and "told" on him/her like a child then I would support the "storm" you experienced fully.
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Looks to me like the old 3rd world problem of loss of face rearing it's ugly head again. As mentioned previously hopefully a lot of this macho stuff was stamped out during CRM training but clearly we have a long way to go. Most responsible flight deck crew encourage other crew members to speak up if they have concerns about state of the a/c.
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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Earl, you are correct. I have no knowledge of the event in question, or the folks involved.
Suffice to say, in the annals of frivolous lawsuits here in America, this one belongs to the by-now-proverbial Ministry of Silly Walks. The intense labor strife at the yet-to-be-merged America West/US Air is a well known story here in the colonies, the subject of this thread only serves to bring it to ever new lows.
Regarding the question of ice present on the wings, or any other safety related concern for that matter, any and all input from the cabin is most welcome, even necessary, in this writer’s opinion, at any time before, during or after the flight. They would, in truth, be remiss in not reporting to the flight deck.
I apologize for the red herring, I can only hope our passengers out there appreciate my general drift. Although we remain, mostly, a pretty dedicated group, there are those amongst us who take things just a little too personally.
Suffice to say, in the annals of frivolous lawsuits here in America, this one belongs to the by-now-proverbial Ministry of Silly Walks. The intense labor strife at the yet-to-be-merged America West/US Air is a well known story here in the colonies, the subject of this thread only serves to bring it to ever new lows.
Regarding the question of ice present on the wings, or any other safety related concern for that matter, any and all input from the cabin is most welcome, even necessary, in this writer’s opinion, at any time before, during or after the flight. They would, in truth, be remiss in not reporting to the flight deck.
I apologize for the red herring, I can only hope our passengers out there appreciate my general drift. Although we remain, mostly, a pretty dedicated group, there are those amongst us who take things just a little too personally.
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Facts;
1. An aircraft may or may not have had wings contaminated with ice
2. Said aircraft was de-iced
3. Aircraft took off normally
4. Cabin crew fell out with FO
5. FO to CC to court
Sounds like a serious failure of CRM to me, but I can't see a court of law wasting much time over this!
NEXT!
1. An aircraft may or may not have had wings contaminated with ice
2. Said aircraft was de-iced
3. Aircraft took off normally
4. Cabin crew fell out with FO
5. FO to CC to court
Sounds like a serious failure of CRM to me, but I can't see a court of law wasting much time over this!
NEXT!
Last edited by mona lot; 2nd Feb 2009 at 22:23.
The story is getting more publicity, want it or not. See here:
Aero-News Network: The Aviation and Aerospace World's Daily/Real-Time News and Information Service
Aero-News Network: The Aviation and Aerospace World's Daily/Real-Time News and Information Service
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spacepilot . the question is " did you have the integrity to tell him you were concerned and you were going to take it higher , therefore allowing him/her the option too get himself the help required? " , if you did this then thats ok . if you simply went ahead and "told" on him/her like a child then I would support the "storm" you experienced fully.
Okay, agreed that it may have been the decent thing to let the pilot know the incident would be reported to give him the opportunity to prepare his case but once the decision had been made to report it, it has to be reported, regardless of any other supplementary actions.
It is a very difficult call to make but nevertheless a call that had to be made.
Unless the report was made out of spite, which doesn't seem to be the case on the face of it, the hard call was probably a damn sight more responsible and adult than childish.
What if he hadn't reported it and the guy had flown another similar sortie later that same day, with fatal consequences, not just for the pilot but other observers or innocent parties on the ground? He'd have a lot more on his conscience than having to worry about whistle blowing.
Effects of Frost on Airbus Aircraft
Crossunder (post #57):
The Possibility exists that pilots may make their own judgement about the severity of a ‘small’ patch of frost and not de-ice – …But pilot actually has no means of quantifying the effect
The effect of the frost may be significant or insignificant, depending on its location, size and thickness
�� This is unknown at present on Airbus A/C, since design and certification assumes a clean wing
�� Dependent on individual aircraft design (up to 30 % wing lift reduction already measured on non Airbus aircraft)
Under current recommendations, this frost, whatever the thickness or extent, has to be removed with a full and symmetric de-icing.
ATB
The Possibility exists that pilots may make their own judgement about the severity of a ‘small’ patch of frost and not de-ice – …But pilot actually has no means of quantifying the effect
The effect of the frost may be significant or insignificant, depending on its location, size and thickness
�� This is unknown at present on Airbus A/C, since design and certification assumes a clean wing
�� Dependent on individual aircraft design (up to 30 % wing lift reduction already measured on non Airbus aircraft)
Under current recommendations, this frost, whatever the thickness or extent, has to be removed with a full and symmetric de-icing.
ATB
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They are your eyes and ears in places you have no hope of seeing or knowing. The Cabin Crew are absolutely integral to the safety of the operation.
Unfortunately, some global airlines we all know of hire them young and dumb and from subservient cultures where they'd cut their own heads off before actually saying anything to anyone up the front. That's IF they even thought of noticing anything outside their own little sphere.
Sad but true. I'm sure this won't go down well with the yanks but welcome to the rest of the world.
Yes they can be useful but let's keep it in context.
Most of the howling going on here is based on the article as it was worded by a journalist who wasn't even there. So let's jump to another conclusion: pilot has ex-wife turn up on his crew, huge fight ensues. Coincidence?????? Not likely!