Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC
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I've only skim read the previous 50 odd pages so I don't know if this has come up yet. 2 Aircraft in 3 months brought down by birds. Ive had loads of birdstrikes over the last few years not to mention the ones I don't know about and the ones that I only just missed. Its going to happen again. What ideas do people have to control bird populations near airports. I actually killed the airport hawk in Finland last year when I hit it in the flare. Current bird control procedures clearly are not working.
Whats the point in all the rest of the precautions we take when I can be taken out by 6 geese?
I don't know. Aural systems? More vehicle runs up the runway? One suggestion ive made many times is that some of the regional airports I go into keep the frickin' grass shorter on the field so a large flock can't be hidden, only to rise up as the other bloke calls V1.
This has made me much more bird aware. And I mean the flying kind.
Whats the point in all the rest of the precautions we take when I can be taken out by 6 geese?
I don't know. Aural systems? More vehicle runs up the runway? One suggestion ive made many times is that some of the regional airports I go into keep the frickin' grass shorter on the field so a large flock can't be hidden, only to rise up as the other bloke calls V1.
This has made me much more bird aware. And I mean the flying kind.
BelARgUSA:
There is a story widely circulated in airline circles of a B747 that was flown intentionally by an "eastern" carrier with an engine that had been strapped at the fan blades to stop the blades from rattling when parked on the ground in a strong breeze. The story is accompanied by a photograph of an engine with straps installed in a fashion such as you described. Based on your detailed description, I am beginning to wonder if the story isn't a load of hooey, and if instead the photograph is a picture of the engine on your aircraft after it was flown out for repairs. What do you think?
End of story, we did a 3 engine ferry some 2 days later to Luxembourg to get another engine, with the fan "caged" to prevent windmilling (and vibrations) by cargo pallet straps attached through the blades.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Hoffa Rocks
Bird sanctuaries
" Maybe it's now really high time to get rid of anomalies such as bird sanctuaries close to major airports? "
Chirstiaan J
What do you propose to do nuke em ?
" Maybe it's now really high time to get rid of anomalies such as bird sanctuaries close to major airports? "
Chirstiaan J
What do you propose to do nuke em ?
Skip back a moment to post #790, and read the report that's linked there.
Having bird sanctuaries so close to a major airport is insanity.
Considering the size of the US, or even the state of New York, getting rid of a couple of square miles of bird sanctuary won't change anything for the birds, but a lot for us humans.
And techniques exist for rendering them unattractive to the birds (geese in particular), plus culling of the die-hards...
I'm sure USAir, the other airlines, and their insurance companies would be only too happy to fund the clean-up, rather than lose a few more aircraft...
The birds have been there before the airports
So what? There are now far more airports, far more airplanes AND far more birds. They don't go together.
We have had discussions on bird strikes before on PPRuNe, perhaps you have read them. There's a lot of info on it
As it stands there will be more bird strikes and we have to deal with it.
CJ
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J.O. - strapped engine might have been on the 5th pylon for transporting engines.
Not sure if that's still done, or if current 747's have the capability to transport a fifth engine.
Not sure if that's still done, or if current 747's have the capability to transport a fifth engine.
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B747 that was flown intentionally by an "eastern" carrier with an engine that had been strapped at the fan blades
snopes.com: Air China Jet Engine
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My failed engine was nº 4
Hola Señor J.O. -
xxx
Well, looked at your engine picture. Looks like a nº 1 or 2 engine...
As the airplane fuselage is on the LH side of the picture.
Our airplane was a "white whale", with red titles and MK logo on fin.
Not a blue stripe as shown.
xxx
Looking at the straps, yes, looks same as the they secured it in Accra.
But apparently, it is an approved method.
Both F/E and ride-along engineer told me "fan secured, will not windmill".
Like you think yourself, it is my opinion that is a strange way to secure a fan.
I had done engine-out ferries with other planes, a real "inlet plug" installed.
xxx
Fact is also, that our plane was a 9G- Ghana registry, and I trust their CAA.
One of the oldest CAA in West Africa, and generally of good reputation.
I am sure their inspectors gave their own blessings.
And if it vibrated again for the 3-engine ferry, would have been back to Accra.
And have a few other beers at the Golden Tulip hotel bar, near the airport.
Had taken a picture of the engine, but provided it to MK with my report.
xxx
My own lesson from this event was -
Do your checklists, they say, accelerate, and retract flaps at V2+80...
Well, I learned that it cannot always be as the checklist says.
Fly airplane first, best as you can. And bend SOPs when/where required.
I was happy we did not get 2 engines out...
Would have told the F/O to lower the nose at 200' AGL and accelerate.
No obstacles ahead, get airspeed (airspeed makes you fly).
Second segment, to 800' AGL with 2 engines-out at V2...?
Just an average pilot here, not the "ace of the base".
xxx
Hapy contrails
P.S. - I adore goose liver...
xxx
Well, looked at your engine picture. Looks like a nº 1 or 2 engine...
As the airplane fuselage is on the LH side of the picture.
Our airplane was a "white whale", with red titles and MK logo on fin.
Not a blue stripe as shown.
xxx
Looking at the straps, yes, looks same as the they secured it in Accra.
But apparently, it is an approved method.
Both F/E and ride-along engineer told me "fan secured, will not windmill".
Like you think yourself, it is my opinion that is a strange way to secure a fan.
I had done engine-out ferries with other planes, a real "inlet plug" installed.
xxx
Fact is also, that our plane was a 9G- Ghana registry, and I trust their CAA.
One of the oldest CAA in West Africa, and generally of good reputation.
I am sure their inspectors gave their own blessings.
And if it vibrated again for the 3-engine ferry, would have been back to Accra.
And have a few other beers at the Golden Tulip hotel bar, near the airport.
Had taken a picture of the engine, but provided it to MK with my report.
xxx
My own lesson from this event was -
Do your checklists, they say, accelerate, and retract flaps at V2+80...
Well, I learned that it cannot always be as the checklist says.
Fly airplane first, best as you can. And bend SOPs when/where required.
I was happy we did not get 2 engines out...
Would have told the F/O to lower the nose at 200' AGL and accelerate.
No obstacles ahead, get airspeed (airspeed makes you fly).
Second segment, to 800' AGL with 2 engines-out at V2...?
Just an average pilot here, not the "ace of the base".
xxx
Hapy contrails
P.S. - I adore goose liver...
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My old company had an SOP to have the landing lights on below FL100. My current company (LOCO) likes them off as much as possible to save bulbs. After ingesting some starlings recently on the initial climbout, I now leave them on a bit longer. I'm not suggesting that this has any direct relevance to this event (and it didn't help Ryanair's NG, which would have had them on) but anything that might help reduce the number of bird strikes is worth considering.
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The crew list;
The Crew:
Captain Chesley B. Sullenberger, III, joined US Airways in 1980.
First officer Jeffrey B. Skiles, joined US Airways in 1986.
Flight Attendant Sheila Dail, joined US Airways in 1980.
Flight Attendant Doreen Welsh, joined US Airways in 1970.
Flight Attendant Donna Dent, was hired by US Airways in 1982.
Some serious experience there!
The Crew:
Captain Chesley B. Sullenberger, III, joined US Airways in 1980.
First officer Jeffrey B. Skiles, joined US Airways in 1986.
Flight Attendant Sheila Dail, joined US Airways in 1980.
Flight Attendant Doreen Welsh, joined US Airways in 1970.
Flight Attendant Donna Dent, was hired by US Airways in 1982.
Some serious experience there!
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Some serious experience there!
When things are stagnant in the flying business, experience levels in every seat are high. Not good for progression but it is a luxury to work with people who really know their jobs.
I can remember years ago when the US Air crews looked so young...
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The Aviation Herald
http://avherald.com/h?article=41370ebc/0005
Accident: US Airways A320 at New York on Jan 15th 2009, ditched in Hudson River
By Simon Hradecky, created Sunday, Jan 18th 2009 21:53Z, last updated Sunday, Jan 18th 2009 21:59Z
http://avherald.com/h?article=41370ebc/0005
Accident: US Airways A320 at New York on Jan 15th 2009, ditched in Hudson River
By Simon Hradecky, created Sunday, Jan 18th 2009 21:53Z, last updated Sunday, Jan 18th 2009 21:59Z
The NTSB reported about first data from the flight data and cockpit voice recorder in their last public brief today. The data quality of both recorders is excellent, the FDR features 700 parameters.
According to the FDR the engines started to run down simultaneously as the airplane climbed through 2700-3000 feet. The airplane subsequently reached a maximum altitude of 3200 feet. This ties in with the observation, that the airplane intersected a string of primary targets visible on the radar (but not to the NY departure controller). The rolldown of the engines was very rapid and went below idle setting.
The cockpit voice recorder contains the whole flight from before engine startup. Flight preparation, working the various checklists and takeoff were routine. About 90 seconds after liftoff the captain remarks about birds, about 3 seconds later thumps are being heard and the engines can be heard running down. This is 210 seconds before the end of recording. The captain confirms loss of power and takes control of the airplane. He then calls MAYDAY (which wasn't briefed by NTSB so far), reported to ATC that they hit birds and lost both engines. The first officer is attempting to restart the engines, but isn't successful. 90 seconds before splash down the captain advises cabin "Brace for impact" via the PA, then tells ATC "We're gonne be in the Hudson", the Ground Proximity warning systems triggers and continues throughout the remainder of the flight.
The NTSB described the atmosphere in the cockpit as a very calm collected exercise (the spokeswoman even remarked "routine conversation, I was more nerveous[listening to the tape, editor's note] than them").
The airplane is currently on a barge, which is estimated to move to New Jersey late Sunday after the airplane has been defueled.
The first stage fan blades of the right engine are intact, there is damage (denting) to the front cowling of the engine (editor's note: probably meant engine inlet). Both wings show leading edge damage, the right wing is badly damaged and leaks fuel. The belly underneath the tail is badly damaged, all doors to belly compartments opened causing bad damage there, too.
Because of the fuel leakage it was decided to defuel the airplane on the barge before moving it to a workshop in New Jersey.
The left hand engine may have been located in the Hudson river, there has been one sonar return of interest, which has not been known to local authorities so far. Additional survey is currently being done on that object before probably divers will be sent down to prepare the object for recovery.
The NTSB said, that "Miracle of the Hudson" is a wonderful picture, although both flight and cabin crew had been trained for years to do this.
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Birds at altitude
As a SLF and Birder, I seem to recall that the record height for a birdstrike was 37,000 feet - A Vulture over Africa. I also remember reading of a group of Whooper Swans being radar tracked at 26,000 feet over Scotland.
#1004
Picture shows a completely acceptable method of Fan retention iaw MM practices , such as for JT9 and CF6 engines...have personally done this for a 2 engine ferry on a DC10.......... lots of other checks are carried out, such as boroscope insp on the other engines. RB211 required that the fan blades are removed altogether .
Picture shows a completely acceptable method of Fan retention iaw MM practices , such as for JT9 and CF6 engines...have personally done this for a 2 engine ferry on a DC10.......... lots of other checks are carried out, such as boroscope insp on the other engines. RB211 required that the fan blades are removed altogether .
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Birds at Altitude
Honeybuzzard Quote: I also remember reading of a group of Whooper Swans being radar tracked at 26,000 feet over Scotland.
Fortunately ATC warned us and it was 'all eyes looking'. (about 1985)
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Just a thought, but how about l@sers to target flocks and scare them away??
Had I not see it I wouldn’t have believed it.
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fuel contamination
Now that we know this same a/c experienced a compressor stall in the right engine 2 days earlier....and that US Airways prefers a pilot to carry less than full fuel....would condensation be a factor? Could an engine go through a series of stalls from water contamination in the fuel and be damaged to the point that the damage is not noticed until tasked? Is a compressor stall so routine that they go unreported?
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CHfour:
Are aircraft bulbs that unreliable then? The ones used on cars seem to be amazingly reliable considering the vibration and other environmental factors. Granted that aviation is probably worse, but mechanical damage is going to happen whether the bulbs are powerd or not. Or is your current company concerned that it might have to upload a couple pounds more fuel to keep them on for a few more minutes?
JayEmKay:
I've seen quotes from WW2 bomber pilots who say that taking a straight course through the flak was best because it provided minimum time in the target area. Perhaps geese work the same way?
(OK, if it's targetted flak or you get coned by searchlights then you'd better evade)
Birds in general don't seem to cope very well with high-speed objects - even when faced with a car they react very late sometimes, and a few don't make it. I assume this is evolution, in that they've never needed to react to something that big and fast.
My old company had an SOP to have the landing lights on below FL100. My current company (LOCO) likes them off as much as possible to save bulbs.
Are aircraft bulbs that unreliable then? The ones used on cars seem to be amazingly reliable considering the vibration and other environmental factors. Granted that aviation is probably worse, but mechanical damage is going to happen whether the bulbs are powerd or not. Or is your current company concerned that it might have to upload a couple pounds more fuel to keep them on for a few more minutes?
JayEmKay:
a flock of Canada geese was illuminated flying directly through the display and heading for the lake half a mile away. Their deviation due to the fireworks - absolutely nil.
(OK, if it's targetted flak or you get coned by searchlights then you'd better evade)
Birds in general don't seem to cope very well with high-speed objects - even when faced with a car they react very late sometimes, and a few don't make it. I assume this is evolution, in that they've never needed to react to something that big and fast.
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birds
Screens are a non-starter. A 4lb+ bird at 250kts is a cannon round basically. Since the encounter could be at any altitude perhaps the best defense is a good offense. Some way to
1) detect the object on approach to the engine
2) ensure it does not get to the engine(s).
The idea would be some sort of directed energy release from the side of the a/c linear with the axis from the spool. Well timed, it would remove the threat from entering the engine. I think 1) is achievable and testable but 2) is tougher given the thin sides of a/c and the extra weight needed for such a rarely needed system.
(obviously this system is only for a close to body engine mounts, #1 and #4 would be on their own in a 4 engine application).
1) detect the object on approach to the engine
2) ensure it does not get to the engine(s).
The idea would be some sort of directed energy release from the side of the a/c linear with the axis from the spool. Well timed, it would remove the threat from entering the engine. I think 1) is achievable and testable but 2) is tougher given the thin sides of a/c and the extra weight needed for such a rarely needed system.
(obviously this system is only for a close to body engine mounts, #1 and #4 would be on their own in a 4 engine application).