Crash at ZRH
Trash du Blanc
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Is the RJ like the BAe-146 in that a certain minimum N1 must be maintained when operating the hot wings? That combined with a steep approach at night would be a nightmare!
My prayers for all and their coworkers.
My prayers for all and their coworkers.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Years ago, circled (many times) to rny 28 from an ILS 16 in a B707, always at night and in rain and snow....and believe me there are traps for the unwary...bit of a black hole...not easy.
Join Date: Jan 2000
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Gear up, E (Enhanced) GPWS only works in conjunction with GPS. It gives you a warning if you descend outside a predetermined boundary around an airport stored in the database. I don’t know for sure, but I doubt that LX has its RJ equipped with GPS receivers.
A colleague of mine landed about 45 min before the accident with a 738 in ZRH. According to him he picked up a lot of ice on the way down and he was also warned about it by ATC. He was one of the last guys who got in on RWY 14 so he didn’t have to fly the lengthy approach procedure for the VOR/DME on 28. As you know, severe icing can also lead to unreliable airspeed, which can be difficult to detect during the final stage of a non-precision approach in turbulent air. They were more than 500 feet below the minimum altitude at the point of impact. It’s difficult to imagine that two professionals neglected minimum altitudes during approach at the home base. They must have experienced a stall or some other serious malfunctions. Anyway, it is all speculation; the investigation will hopefully reveal the real cause of the accident.
Sad, I just found out that the Captain was one of the good guys. He gave me my check-ride for my initial swiss B-IFR 26 years ago. He was real pro with an outstanding personality. I don’t know if he survived, but I sure do hope so.
A colleague of mine landed about 45 min before the accident with a 738 in ZRH. According to him he picked up a lot of ice on the way down and he was also warned about it by ATC. He was one of the last guys who got in on RWY 14 so he didn’t have to fly the lengthy approach procedure for the VOR/DME on 28. As you know, severe icing can also lead to unreliable airspeed, which can be difficult to detect during the final stage of a non-precision approach in turbulent air. They were more than 500 feet below the minimum altitude at the point of impact. It’s difficult to imagine that two professionals neglected minimum altitudes during approach at the home base. They must have experienced a stall or some other serious malfunctions. Anyway, it is all speculation; the investigation will hopefully reveal the real cause of the accident.
Sad, I just found out that the Captain was one of the good guys. He gave me my check-ride for my initial swiss B-IFR 26 years ago. He was real pro with an outstanding personality. I don’t know if he survived, but I sure do hope so.
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Dear WOW400,
"Steamdriven"? If your 319 had hit the ground like this RJ, it would have been unrecognizable, let alone have survivors.don't compare this aeroplane with large pax planes. Regional, made to cost and for it's own niche market.
Icing? please! we've flown RJ/146's in worse conditions.
I'm just glad for the lives saved...
"Steamdriven"? If your 319 had hit the ground like this RJ, it would have been unrecognizable, let alone have survivors.don't compare this aeroplane with large pax planes. Regional, made to cost and for it's own niche market.
Icing? please! we've flown RJ/146's in worse conditions.
I'm just glad for the lives saved...
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Some but not all Crossair RJ are equiped with EGPWS, can't remember if this one was.
The aircraft normaly handle ice well but yes, the engines need a higher N1.A figure of 70% rings a bell. Might be wrong. You have ample dingdongs to remind you. The ice-detector is the first. It is LX procedure to have wing and engine anti ice on when entering cloud even if it is 30deg C.
The aircraft normaly handle ice well but yes, the engines need a higher N1.A figure of 70% rings a bell. Might be wrong. You have ample dingdongs to remind you. The ice-detector is the first. It is LX procedure to have wing and engine anti ice on when entering cloud even if it is 30deg C.
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Schit for brains; what an apt name!
What's your problem son? I read Wow400's post; can't see anything wrong in that. Maybe you have a chip on both shoulders mate cos you fly a 'steam-driven' machine. We all did once, so lighten up a bit.
More importantly, condolences to all concerned. Very tragic, regardless of the circumstances.
What's your problem son? I read Wow400's post; can't see anything wrong in that. Maybe you have a chip on both shoulders mate cos you fly a 'steam-driven' machine. We all did once, so lighten up a bit.
More importantly, condolences to all concerned. Very tragic, regardless of the circumstances.
I don't think wow400 was criticising steam driven machines, rather, saying that it's difficult enough in a high tech scarebus and therefore he didn't envy the clockwork drivers having to do it all themselves. Some of us steamdriven boys are being hyper-sensitive. Settle down!
Condolences to all.
Condolences to all.
Join Date: Sep 2000
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This really is awful.Thoughts are with yet more families deprived of their loved ones.
If this 22:00 flyover restriction resulted in a 28 approach,with cloud at 600',it is one of the worst examples ever of the noise lobby compromising safety.
The descent is initiated at 4,000' adjacent to a spot ht of 2,927' in the 8 miles that follow the Jep plate only gives ONE check alt (at 6 miles 3,360').After that you are on your own until MAP at 2 miles-MDA 2390'(974').
It is a slightly higher than normal ROD onto by far the shortest of Zurich's three runways.
This may all have nothing to do with Saturdays accident,but even so they should never have been asked to do this approach in these conditions.
If this 22:00 flyover restriction resulted in a 28 approach,with cloud at 600',it is one of the worst examples ever of the noise lobby compromising safety.
The descent is initiated at 4,000' adjacent to a spot ht of 2,927' in the 8 miles that follow the Jep plate only gives ONE check alt (at 6 miles 3,360').After that you are on your own until MAP at 2 miles-MDA 2390'(974').
It is a slightly higher than normal ROD onto by far the shortest of Zurich's three runways.
This may all have nothing to do with Saturdays accident,but even so they should never have been asked to do this approach in these conditions.
Join Date: May 2000
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My condolances for every family involved. I really hope that local'' noise regulations did not contribute to this crash''. I mean far too often noise prevails above safety and that is unacceptable. Schiphol got a black star for it!!
Join Date: Nov 2001
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but even so they should never have been asked to do this approach in these conditions.
Any transport pilot who can't fly a VOR/DME procedure - perhaps the easiest non-precision approach to perform - with 2.5 miles visibility, negligible wind, and a ceiling above 1500 feet doesn't need to be flying at all.
Something else had to happen to cause that aircraft to crash at 5.5DME, where they should have been descending through about 1300' AGL, in my opinion.
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Firstly, terrible to see another aircraft lost and my condolences to all involved.
The VOR/DME approach into ZRH is suprisingly hard with a complex interception via sometimes 2 other VORs and with a large number of height steps. It requires far more skill than any other VOR/DME i have every done. As well as this I think it has proved impossible to install any precision approach onto the runway due to terrain which is why the slope on the approach is steeper than usual.
There have also been comments made about the combination of a steeper approach and high power settings required for the hot wings on the RJ/146 and this being a nightmare. Let me just say that the aircraft has a FABULOUS airbrake and very effective flaps. It would be no problem.
Has anyone suggested the old one of 1013/QNH? Seem to remember an Alitalia not making ZRH some years ago.
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: jetgirl ]
The VOR/DME approach into ZRH is suprisingly hard with a complex interception via sometimes 2 other VORs and with a large number of height steps. It requires far more skill than any other VOR/DME i have every done. As well as this I think it has proved impossible to install any precision approach onto the runway due to terrain which is why the slope on the approach is steeper than usual.
There have also been comments made about the combination of a steeper approach and high power settings required for the hot wings on the RJ/146 and this being a nightmare. Let me just say that the aircraft has a FABULOUS airbrake and very effective flaps. It would be no problem.
Has anyone suggested the old one of 1013/QNH? Seem to remember an Alitalia not making ZRH some years ago.
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: jetgirl ]
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This looks like very old data...
I have the Jepp LSZH 13-2 in front of me from 10 NOV 00.
DME 8.0: 4000 (2584)
DME 6.0: 3360 (1944)
DME 2.0: 2390 (974) the MDA and MAP
KLO is 114.85 not 116.4
Missed Approach:
Proceed to KLO VOR. Follow R-255 KLO to intercept R-012 WIL (116.9). Proceed to EKRIT climbing to 6000.
Unfortunately I can´t scan it into the system and bring it onto this page due to "not enough knowledge".
Approaches into LSZH after 22.00 loc time are required to use 28 instead of 14/16 because of noise abatement. What a b*llsh*t!!!
Midnight Blue
I have the Jepp LSZH 13-2 in front of me from 10 NOV 00.
DME 8.0: 4000 (2584)
DME 6.0: 3360 (1944)
DME 2.0: 2390 (974) the MDA and MAP
KLO is 114.85 not 116.4
Missed Approach:
Proceed to KLO VOR. Follow R-255 KLO to intercept R-012 WIL (116.9). Proceed to EKRIT climbing to 6000.
Unfortunately I can´t scan it into the system and bring it onto this page due to "not enough knowledge".
Approaches into LSZH after 22.00 loc time are required to use 28 instead of 14/16 because of noise abatement. What a b*llsh*t!!!
Midnight Blue
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Thanks for that Chris.
Apart from some of the turning involved to establish inbound, the actual procedure seems quite straight forward.
A constant 3 degree profile from 4000 feet at 8 miles will put you at the min. of 2330 at approx 2.4 miles. Absolutely nothing difficult about that at all.
There must have been something very wrong for the guys to come down where they did. RIP.
Apart from some of the turning involved to establish inbound, the actual procedure seems quite straight forward.
A constant 3 degree profile from 4000 feet at 8 miles will put you at the min. of 2330 at approx 2.4 miles. Absolutely nothing difficult about that at all.
There must have been something very wrong for the guys to come down where they did. RIP.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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New update from the Zurich newspaper NZZ (Neue Zürcher Zeitung:
Among the 9 survivors are obviously two crew-members, however it is not stated if cockpit or cabin.
According to local police statements the following nationalities and numbers were on board of the plane:
Germany: 13
Switzerland: 10
Israel: 3
The Netherlands: 2
Canada: 1
Sweden: 1
Spain: 1
Ghana: 1
Austria: 1
One comment to the weather situation shortly before the accident.
A friend of mine flew the VORDME28 approach to LSZH that evening. They were the first plane (ERJ145 of CRX) which was directed to this approach. According to his statements, they picked up a lot of ice down to the final turn onto track 275° to KLO VOR. They had to descent to MDA (2390 ft AMSL) in full IMC and had visual contact with the approach lights of runway 28 at about D 2.3 KLO, which is 0.3 NM before MAP. They touched down on RWY28 around 22:01 LT. A Saab 2000 came 2nd behind them. The ARJ100 which crashed was obviously number 3 for approach.
What a sad weekend....
CarbonBrake
Among the 9 survivors are obviously two crew-members, however it is not stated if cockpit or cabin.
According to local police statements the following nationalities and numbers were on board of the plane:
Germany: 13
Switzerland: 10
Israel: 3
The Netherlands: 2
Canada: 1
Sweden: 1
Spain: 1
Ghana: 1
Austria: 1
One comment to the weather situation shortly before the accident.
A friend of mine flew the VORDME28 approach to LSZH that evening. They were the first plane (ERJ145 of CRX) which was directed to this approach. According to his statements, they picked up a lot of ice down to the final turn onto track 275° to KLO VOR. They had to descent to MDA (2390 ft AMSL) in full IMC and had visual contact with the approach lights of runway 28 at about D 2.3 KLO, which is 0.3 NM before MAP. They touched down on RWY28 around 22:01 LT. A Saab 2000 came 2nd behind them. The ARJ100 which crashed was obviously number 3 for approach.
What a sad weekend....
CarbonBrake
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Dont normally respond to these
Guys wait and see the results becuase i have seen everything from gpws, crew compatibility, approach difficult etc
Wait and see!!
Please!
I have trained and watched many an approach on this runway, and will wait to hear results and i know its hard when told to keep speed up but I suggest we wait and find out report. In respect of those that died, please understand!
One day it could be your friend or work companion, so shall we wait????
Aircraft type who worrys, but good gossip!
But dont forget one thing! It could be _!
Guys wait and see the results becuase i have seen everything from gpws, crew compatibility, approach difficult etc
Wait and see!!
Please!
I have trained and watched many an approach on this runway, and will wait to hear results and i know its hard when told to keep speed up but I suggest we wait and find out report. In respect of those that died, please understand!
One day it could be your friend or work companion, so shall we wait????
Aircraft type who worrys, but good gossip!
But dont forget one thing! It could be _!