Pay-to-fly wannabee damages Thomas Cook Airbus
In a former `life` I was an aircraft qualified BTC on the A330 for seven years when most of our training was done on the aircraft before ZFT became more common and the thing about this AAIB report that really raised my eyebrows was the report that when the company involved analysed the flight data recorders they found that the candidate had been involved in 8 out of 28 DUALSIDESTICK INPUTS on landing!
This fact alone reflects very badly on the training given and presumably the subsequent `write-ups` on the training records. I am not at all surprised that the trainee, who was marginal at best, proved to have a very poor grasp of the what was required from a normal flare. Airbus go to great lengths to warn about making dual inputs yet here appears to be yet another company that chooses to ignore the experience of other operators.
This fact alone reflects very badly on the training given and presumably the subsequent `write-ups` on the training records. I am not at all surprised that the trainee, who was marginal at best, proved to have a very poor grasp of the what was required from a normal flare. Airbus go to great lengths to warn about making dual inputs yet here appears to be yet another company that chooses to ignore the experience of other operators.
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I'm not a commercial pilot but I do have experience of US flight training. The AAIB note that the pilot in question did his PPL in 45 hours and therefore must have had no problems. From my personal experience I saw PPL's being churned out in 45 hours regardless of ability, it's what you paid for and what you got. I went to a flight school to do an IMC rating. I saw student pilots get their PPL's in a uniform 45 hours, their only aptitude was a credit card. On my IMC I did it in 15 hours (the minimum) with Trevor Thom Book 5 on my lap for most of the time and the "Examiner" was handling pilot through 80% of the test - I retrained on my return to the UK to avoid killing myself. A number of the PPL's went back to the US year after year because no UK club would let them solo in a C150.
I hope that the FO in this incident was worthy of a 45 hour PPL, most aren't - even under intensive training - and some US FTO's will give the customer what they want £xxxx for a PPL guaranteed.
I hope that the FO in this incident was worthy of a 45 hour PPL, most aren't - even under intensive training - and some US FTO's will give the customer what they want £xxxx for a PPL guaranteed.
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To clarify things here. The cadet was not related to CTC in any way.
First CTC would never offer this type of candidate to the airlines.
Second CTC at the time only offered two sponsorship types and in none of them the cadet pays for the type rating or line trainning. Please get informmed before writing here.
The difference so far with CTC is that they make sure none of it's cadets let them down.
It is a very generous scheme, basically as Frozen ATPL I applied to CTC. After very rigorous selection, I was offered for 7000£ the following: Advance Handling ,MCC and CRM ( Fixed base 737) 40 hours, after completition of this course to a very high standard, they offered interview with interested airline, then A320 TR, and 6 months line flying with a 1000£ monthly allowance, possibility of further employment thereafter. All this for 7000£ an what is best they refund you with 2000£ after completing your line check. It means all that for 5000£!!! You must be doing many right things to be offered this type of deal in the current climate.
So please don't compare a CTC cadet to someone willing to pay ANY TRTO for a TR and even continue to pay for line training, there is a big difference.
First CTC would never offer this type of candidate to the airlines.
Second CTC at the time only offered two sponsorship types and in none of them the cadet pays for the type rating or line trainning. Please get informmed before writing here.
The difference so far with CTC is that they make sure none of it's cadets let them down.
It is a very generous scheme, basically as Frozen ATPL I applied to CTC. After very rigorous selection, I was offered for 7000£ the following: Advance Handling ,MCC and CRM ( Fixed base 737) 40 hours, after completition of this course to a very high standard, they offered interview with interested airline, then A320 TR, and 6 months line flying with a 1000£ monthly allowance, possibility of further employment thereafter. All this for 7000£ an what is best they refund you with 2000£ after completing your line check. It means all that for 5000£!!! You must be doing many right things to be offered this type of deal in the current climate.
So please don't compare a CTC cadet to someone willing to pay ANY TRTO for a TR and even continue to pay for line training, there is a big difference.
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I feel for the FO. His/her career is blighted, if he was not up to the job his FTO should have given him some remedial training or told him to go take up basket weaving for a living and not let him loose with x number of fair paying joe public sat behind him.
If as a PPL instructor I think a student is not fit for solo he doesn't go solo simple as that, whether he has 15 or 50 hours. Commercial pressure doesn't enter the equation.
Airlines selling surplus training capacity scares the **** out of me.
If as a PPL instructor I think a student is not fit for solo he doesn't go solo simple as that, whether he has 15 or 50 hours. Commercial pressure doesn't enter the equation.
Airlines selling surplus training capacity scares the **** out of me.
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Most, if not all, companies whether they be airlines or TRTO's specify a minimum number of total hours, CV's (Resumes) are often delicately written to conceal the truth, in any occupation, hence the need for specific application forms.
Now whether 'Cigar' (sound alike) Aviation have a specific application form or whether then go on a CV I have no idea but normally either will say total hours, SEP hours, MEP hours and, of course, the wannabees will often bolster it up with a minimal number of hours in, often, a geriatric simulator during an MCC course or similar but I have yet to see an application form that asks that they break down their total hours in to a year by year account.
By all accounts this individual had barely flown enough SEP hours in recent years to make it to the local supermarket so he obviously slipped through the net, do you have 200 hours? Yes! He meets the criteria, 'we' cannot refuse him.
But, thereafter, many warning signs were there which, perhaps, cannot be excused, hindsight is a wonderful think 'oh, I knew it would all end in disaster' but how exactly so far are application criteria's to be dissected? Should they ask one for their inside leg measurement to ensure they can reach the pedals of a particular aircraft type etc. etc. etc?
As they say 'sh1t happens' and on this occasion a pay-to-fly individual slipped through the net, do full time employed Flight Crew never 'bend' aeroplanes, I can think of a few that have and they weren't paying to fly!
Now whether 'Cigar' (sound alike) Aviation have a specific application form or whether then go on a CV I have no idea but normally either will say total hours, SEP hours, MEP hours and, of course, the wannabees will often bolster it up with a minimal number of hours in, often, a geriatric simulator during an MCC course or similar but I have yet to see an application form that asks that they break down their total hours in to a year by year account.
By all accounts this individual had barely flown enough SEP hours in recent years to make it to the local supermarket so he obviously slipped through the net, do you have 200 hours? Yes! He meets the criteria, 'we' cannot refuse him.
But, thereafter, many warning signs were there which, perhaps, cannot be excused, hindsight is a wonderful think 'oh, I knew it would all end in disaster' but how exactly so far are application criteria's to be dissected? Should they ask one for their inside leg measurement to ensure they can reach the pedals of a particular aircraft type etc. etc. etc?
As they say 'sh1t happens' and on this occasion a pay-to-fly individual slipped through the net, do full time employed Flight Crew never 'bend' aeroplanes, I can think of a few that have and they weren't paying to fly!
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Experienced people do bend aircraft, the problem in this case is that the warning signs for this exact incident were there from day one and they weren't acted upon.
This is a failing of a training/checking system rather than an simply a human error by the handling pilot. Which is far more concerning. Everyone makes mistakes, what isn't acceptable is that the systems aren't rigorous enough to catch potential problems before they happen.
Having said that, quite frankly even the daftest frozen ATPL should be able to fly and land a medium jet. If they have been taught properly. Especially on a day like that with innocuous weather. We've all been guilty of banging a/c down a bit harder than we wanted to, but in this case the chap just wasn't getting it and a major problem was more or less assured.
This is a failing of a training/checking system rather than an simply a human error by the handling pilot. Which is far more concerning. Everyone makes mistakes, what isn't acceptable is that the systems aren't rigorous enough to catch potential problems before they happen.
Having said that, quite frankly even the daftest frozen ATPL should be able to fly and land a medium jet. If they have been taught properly. Especially on a day like that with innocuous weather. We've all been guilty of banging a/c down a bit harder than we wanted to, but in this case the chap just wasn't getting it and a major problem was more or less assured.
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Can someone tell me this is the first time a self sponsored had an Incident. If that is the case until now everyone who had an accident or incident they are company sponsered, what is the ratio to 1000000
I Have Control
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Arrogant pilots' comments.
I see the recurring theme here that medium jets are straightforward to land, no problems for a frozen ATPL, etc etc. Including the A320.
What rubbish! I have logged over 1500 manual landings on A319, A320, and A321's. Plus a couple of hundred on the A330, both -200 and -300's.
I do not consider landing these aircraft easy, straightforward, or simple. It requires full concentration to achieve successfully, along with a high level of anticipation for a possible go-around.
Landing at Kos, as at many holiday destinations, can be a challenge for the most experienced. Visual cues make the place non-standard, along with the r/w length and offset approach. LHR, CDG, FCO, and other fully-equipped fields are no easier on the day.
I write this just to set the record straight for those who are gaining the impression that landing the newer Airbus aircraft is a simple matter. It is not. Good professionals understand that.
I am against folk paying the airlines for line-flying. Morally indefensible.
What rubbish! I have logged over 1500 manual landings on A319, A320, and A321's. Plus a couple of hundred on the A330, both -200 and -300's.
I do not consider landing these aircraft easy, straightforward, or simple. It requires full concentration to achieve successfully, along with a high level of anticipation for a possible go-around.
Landing at Kos, as at many holiday destinations, can be a challenge for the most experienced. Visual cues make the place non-standard, along with the r/w length and offset approach. LHR, CDG, FCO, and other fully-equipped fields are no easier on the day.
I write this just to set the record straight for those who are gaining the impression that landing the newer Airbus aircraft is a simple matter. It is not. Good professionals understand that.
I am against folk paying the airlines for line-flying. Morally indefensible.
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BEA/BOAC got it right at Hamble.
Cadet's were often chopped weeks before the end of the course, no financial pressure there, just a good training system which could see those who were not going to succeed in the long term.
How have the CAA allowed financial advantages to overide basic suitability for the job?
Cadet's were often chopped weeks before the end of the course, no financial pressure there, just a good training system which could see those who were not going to succeed in the long term.
How have the CAA allowed financial advantages to overide basic suitability for the job?
Let’s face it Ladies and Gentlemen, whether a low-hour pilot is paying up front for line training or accepting poor Terms & Conditions for a period of time, they are effectively paying for their introduction to the RHS. Until Airlines take training back in-house, ‘wannabe’ commercial pilots will be forced to pay for that first job.
There are hundreds of low-hour pilots sitting in the RHS in jets operated by Airlines from BA to Zebra Express. A single incident does not prove a rule. For every case such as this one, there are likely to be many low-hour cadets performing to a very high standard on every flight.
Where Operators are using low-hour pilots because it saves or makes them money, it is clearly essential that acceptable training standards are maintained. If TRTOs are failing to enforce high training standards, the CAA should investigate and stop the practice. Having said that, it can be inferred from the lack of incidents similar to that which occurred at Kos that most low-hour cadets are trained to an acceptable standard.
It’s easy to criticise the cadet for having a history of poor landings, but the decision to put him on the line was made by the Operator. Furthermore, the AAIB Report does not explicitly criticise the cadet. The Report criticises the Operator’s training practices and the supervision accorded the cadet by the line training captain.
A further issue which forms about half the AAIB's safety recommendations relates to neither the Operator nor the cadet. The AAIB say Kos Airport has a testing approach due to terrain and this is coupled with iffy PAPIs that exacerbate difficulties estimating rate of descent. For that reason even the Operator determined this to be a captain’s only airport at night. Granted this was a day flight, but a cursory examination of the cadet’s record should have alerted the Operator and the training captain to the fact that this particular cadet should not be asked to fly this approach. It's a seperate issue as to whether a cadet should be flying to Kos in the first place.
For the record, this cadet was current on the Airbus. He had something like 147 hours in the last 3 months. Yes, he was inexperienced but his performance - apart from landings – was said to be professional. The problem was with insufficient training on landings and, reading between the lines, I would say the cadet was therefore let down by the system, not the other way round.
There are hundreds of low-hour pilots sitting in the RHS in jets operated by Airlines from BA to Zebra Express. A single incident does not prove a rule. For every case such as this one, there are likely to be many low-hour cadets performing to a very high standard on every flight.
Where Operators are using low-hour pilots because it saves or makes them money, it is clearly essential that acceptable training standards are maintained. If TRTOs are failing to enforce high training standards, the CAA should investigate and stop the practice. Having said that, it can be inferred from the lack of incidents similar to that which occurred at Kos that most low-hour cadets are trained to an acceptable standard.
It’s easy to criticise the cadet for having a history of poor landings, but the decision to put him on the line was made by the Operator. Furthermore, the AAIB Report does not explicitly criticise the cadet. The Report criticises the Operator’s training practices and the supervision accorded the cadet by the line training captain.
A further issue which forms about half the AAIB's safety recommendations relates to neither the Operator nor the cadet. The AAIB say Kos Airport has a testing approach due to terrain and this is coupled with iffy PAPIs that exacerbate difficulties estimating rate of descent. For that reason even the Operator determined this to be a captain’s only airport at night. Granted this was a day flight, but a cursory examination of the cadet’s record should have alerted the Operator and the training captain to the fact that this particular cadet should not be asked to fly this approach. It's a seperate issue as to whether a cadet should be flying to Kos in the first place.
For the record, this cadet was current on the Airbus. He had something like 147 hours in the last 3 months. Yes, he was inexperienced but his performance - apart from landings – was said to be professional. The problem was with insufficient training on landings and, reading between the lines, I would say the cadet was therefore let down by the system, not the other way round.
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Roy, I understand exactly what you are saying, but there is a difference between being competent (which 99.999% of all flight crew are) and not getting it.
Medium jets are relatively simple to land. Of course it takes concentration and skill, but for a professional pilot that should be a given. I consider something like a Pitts to be challenging. A 73, 320 etc is a piece of cake compared to that.
Of course in challenging conditions things are different, but in this case we are talking about a "normal" day.
It isn't arrogance, but simply a comment on something that we should all be able to manage no matter what stage of our career we're at. If you have good basic technique and can get the thing set up on the approach properly (which as we all know is 90% of the battle) then where's the problem?
This poor chap has been let down by a training system that isn't good enough. TC have also been left with a large bill because of that system.
It is a systematic failure rather than just a personal one.
Medium jets are relatively simple to land. Of course it takes concentration and skill, but for a professional pilot that should be a given. I consider something like a Pitts to be challenging. A 73, 320 etc is a piece of cake compared to that.
Of course in challenging conditions things are different, but in this case we are talking about a "normal" day.
It isn't arrogance, but simply a comment on something that we should all be able to manage no matter what stage of our career we're at. If you have good basic technique and can get the thing set up on the approach properly (which as we all know is 90% of the battle) then where's the problem?
This poor chap has been let down by a training system that isn't good enough. TC have also been left with a large bill because of that system.
It is a systematic failure rather than just a personal one.
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Adverse bump. I appreciated it is advertised as line training but TCX dont actually recieve any monies for the line flying, they actually pay the pilots a minimal wage as I previously mentioned.
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The programme, from the agency's own website, is priced including the line flying as copy & pasted below. Whether TC be receiving any of this payment is not relevant but the pilots ARE paying for the flying:
in conjunction with leading UK operator Thomas Cook Airways, are proud to offer a unique A-320 Self-Sponsored Type Rating Programme.
Following the issue of the A320 Type Rating, students will progress to Line Training. This will be carried out in Thomas Cook Airways aircraft, with Thomas Cook Airways instructors during normal line operations and will lead to the Final Line Check. This marks the end of the training phase and successful students will continue with the Line Experience until they have attained 150 hours total flight time on the A320, inclusive of line training.
Type Rating, Base, Line £26,563 inc. UK VAT
in conjunction with leading UK operator Thomas Cook Airways, are proud to offer a unique A-320 Self-Sponsored Type Rating Programme.
Following the issue of the A320 Type Rating, students will progress to Line Training. This will be carried out in Thomas Cook Airways aircraft, with Thomas Cook Airways instructors during normal line operations and will lead to the Final Line Check. This marks the end of the training phase and successful students will continue with the Line Experience until they have attained 150 hours total flight time on the A320, inclusive of line training.
Type Rating, Base, Line £26,563 inc. UK VAT
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I'm not airbus rated but remember hearing something about dual stick inputs, the LHS has priority.
Is this true and could this have masked the pay to fly guy's bad technique, he possibly didn't realise that he wasn't flying and may even have thought that he did some nice touchdowns.
Is this true and could this have masked the pay to fly guy's bad technique, he possibly didn't realise that he wasn't flying and may even have thought that he did some nice touchdowns.
Read the AAIB Report BeViRAAM. It goes into detail about the effect of dual input in this case.
AAIB Report
AAIB Report
Mistrust in Management
John R
Nothing to be staggered about really. 62 hours after starting base training then line training on the B.737-400 I was cleared to the line. This was with a large British Airline having completed a frozen ATPL with 200 hours flying singles and twins followed by a comprehensive simulator and ground school conversion course - this was my first type as an F/O.
My next line training was about 60 hours for the RH seat of the B.777.
And so it goes on with the B.737 LH seat, the A320 LH seat and the B.757 LH seat.
Yes brand new F/O's are trained to a standard that leaves them quite capable of operating and landing the aircraft entirely on their own. Often their weather limitations are less than that of a Captain so they are also trained to divert to an airport with more suitable weather if necessary.
Regards
Exeng
My next line training was about 60 hours for the RH seat of the B.777.
And so it goes on with the B.737 LH seat, the A320 LH seat and the B.757 LH seat.
And after all we hear about incapacitation and "FOs being just as capable of landing the aircraft"...
Regards
Exeng
Yes John. Is it really staggering to you?
If a pilot has successfully completed a Commercial Pilot's Licence course, gained Instrument and Multi-engine Ratings, completed the MCC and passed the appropriate Type Rating he or she is theoretically trained to fly a passenger aircraft. It is only by completing line training in an aircraft carrying passengers that a pilot can gain operational experience and be signed off as competent.
What, pray tell John, is the alternative? Are you suggesting someone pays for new pilots to gain hundreds of flying hours taking empty 737s for jaunts across to Las Vegas to shoot some Crap?
The problem is that sometimes pilots of marginal ability get into the RHS before they're ready. It rarely leads to accidents. Come to think of it, I've come across people of marginal ability in positions of responsibility in all professions...It's not new. Happily, the Aviation industry can boast high standards for training and safety, leaving these cases as the exception rather than the rule.
If a pilot has successfully completed a Commercial Pilot's Licence course, gained Instrument and Multi-engine Ratings, completed the MCC and passed the appropriate Type Rating he or she is theoretically trained to fly a passenger aircraft. It is only by completing line training in an aircraft carrying passengers that a pilot can gain operational experience and be signed off as competent.
What, pray tell John, is the alternative? Are you suggesting someone pays for new pilots to gain hundreds of flying hours taking empty 737s for jaunts across to Las Vegas to shoot some Crap?
The problem is that sometimes pilots of marginal ability get into the RHS before they're ready. It rarely leads to accidents. Come to think of it, I've come across people of marginal ability in positions of responsibility in all professions...It's not new. Happily, the Aviation industry can boast high standards for training and safety, leaving these cases as the exception rather than the rule.
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i'm not going to comment on the systems that let this guy get to this place to allow this to happen, but I feel i need to reply to all the sky gods that think that we shouldn't be allowed near an airliner till weve got 30,000 hours in light twins and turbo props.
I had a mighty 210 hours total time when I first landed a B757 with passengers in the back. I underwent a very thorough type rating course, and base training, before being let near passengers and then underwent a thorough line training program. I've done night landings in Africa off of offset VOR approaches with no step down fixes on the plate, with 300 odd hours total time. How else do you think we gain experience?
I now have just unfrozen my ATPL, and although no longer officialy 'line training' to be honest every flight is a learning experience and will continue to be whether one has 200, 2000 or 20,000 hours.
Whilst it appears there were systemic failures that allowed this incident to happen, I personally cannot see why everyone is getting their knickers in a twist about 200 hour cadets getting to fly airliners - BA put 200 hour guys on 777's last year - are we suggesting that BA (widely regarded as having one of the best ongoing training systems in the business) is making a huge mistake?. There will always be people who think that 'the old ways are the best' and everyone must tread the same path as them, but thankfully they are few and far between.
I love this job and this business and I'm thankfull that there is a system that allowed me to follow my dreams and ambitions - not all of us were in fianancial positions that would have allowed us to gain thousands of hours flying for pennies on light twins.
I had a mighty 210 hours total time when I first landed a B757 with passengers in the back. I underwent a very thorough type rating course, and base training, before being let near passengers and then underwent a thorough line training program. I've done night landings in Africa off of offset VOR approaches with no step down fixes on the plate, with 300 odd hours total time. How else do you think we gain experience?
I now have just unfrozen my ATPL, and although no longer officialy 'line training' to be honest every flight is a learning experience and will continue to be whether one has 200, 2000 or 20,000 hours.
Whilst it appears there were systemic failures that allowed this incident to happen, I personally cannot see why everyone is getting their knickers in a twist about 200 hour cadets getting to fly airliners - BA put 200 hour guys on 777's last year - are we suggesting that BA (widely regarded as having one of the best ongoing training systems in the business) is making a huge mistake?. There will always be people who think that 'the old ways are the best' and everyone must tread the same path as them, but thankfully they are few and far between.
I love this job and this business and I'm thankfull that there is a system that allowed me to follow my dreams and ambitions - not all of us were in fianancial positions that would have allowed us to gain thousands of hours flying for pennies on light twins.
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Check out what the military use for pilots if you want a shock! Well, just listen out when a military crew check in on an ATC frequency, when you sometimes have to ask yourself, "Does your mother know you are out late, flying that C-5?"
The catch is what sort of material you start with, I think. The military and some of the Big Airlines can take the very best, of course, people who often are frighteningly adept at whatever they try and get it right first try.
If you have a guy who is not the sharpest knife in the drawer then you might need to make sure he gets some extra help and supervision. Passing 50 feet doing 1000 fpm is probably not the best place to start thinking deeply about that one but then hindsight is a wonderful thing!
The catch is what sort of material you start with, I think. The military and some of the Big Airlines can take the very best, of course, people who often are frighteningly adept at whatever they try and get it right first try.
If you have a guy who is not the sharpest knife in the drawer then you might need to make sure he gets some extra help and supervision. Passing 50 feet doing 1000 fpm is probably not the best place to start thinking deeply about that one but then hindsight is a wonderful thing!