Pay-to-fly wannabee damages Thomas Cook Airbus

[Duchess_Driver]

What strikes me as odd throughout this sorry tale is how there were so many 'second chances' given here. The report details a history of poor landing technique both in the sim and in the aircraft. After additional sim time to 'get it right' the F/O reverts to the previously displayed 'sub standard landings' once on the line.

[Roy Bouchier]

There was never much wrong with the old system whereby a PPL got himself an instructor's rating, then enough hours to get a CPL + IR. By that time, he not only knew which way was up but could judge how to flare.
If I were a paying customer with My Travel, I would certainly be asking for my money back - and avoid them like the plague in future.

[Dani]

let me guess: They did zero flight training?

It often strikes me how many cadets have problems with landing. Maybe because I was lucky enough not to ever suffer from. But when I listen to some instructors how they teach landings, I don't really wonder why some (very small) numbers of cadets have a problem with landing, and continue to do so, even after long trainings.

Biggest mistake is that even some instructor don't really know how an aircraft lands. Basically an airliner's landing isn't much different to one of a Cessna 150: You stay on your glide until 50 ft, then start the flare. Flare means you reduce the power and for the lack of lift you pull the yoke/stick to compensate. In addition to that, you hear the RA counting down, when it's 30 latest, you pull.

But those instructors they tell endless stories about vectors and where to look at and energy trends and what the heck else. I would never understand if I would be their cadet...

Dani

[fade to grey]

Dani, I don't agree that an airliners landing is like a 150.For a start I don't know what your'e flying but 50 feet flare on my aircraft would have me sh**ting myself.Its too high.

Secondly we are not trying for a greaser in an airliner - you flare, hold off briefly and fly on.......I don't think we often hear the stall warner like a 150 !Its much more purposeful in an airliner, it has to be you are eating up hundreds of feet of tarmac if you faff about.

[Dani]

FtG, I didn't say you retard at 50, I said a landing starts at 50ft. That's a small but important difference. Think about it, the next time you come over the treshold...

[Phileas Fogg]

The cost of a type rating, inc base training, is circa £15k + any VAT. who said they don't pay to fly?:

XXXXXX Aviation Training and XXXXXX Training, in conjunction with leading UK operator T..... C... Airways, are proud to offer a unique A-320 Self-Sponsored Type Rating Programme.

Facts At A Glance – Pricing


Application
Free Of Charge

Psychometric Assessment
£150 inc. UK VAT

Simulator Assessment
£200 inc. UK VAT

Bridge Course
£5,440 inc. UK VAT

Jet Orientation
£3,350 inc. UK VAT

Type Rating, Base, Line
£26,563 inc. UK VAT

[dahawg123]

I am an A320 pilot working for a major UK charter airline. I joined as a cadet with 250hrs earlier this year and to be quite honest I find some of the attitudes towards cadet pilots on these forums to be offensive.

It is one thing to be concerned about the erosion of pilot T + Cs caused by pay-to-fly pilots (I am opposed to it personally) but to assume that all cadets are incapable of flying a jet and should have a 2-3 year apprenticeship on turboprops is unfair. We have to jump through the same hoops as any other pilot (TR, LPC/OPC, base training, line training, line check) and at the end of the day are either assessed as either capable or incapable.

The incident may well have been avoidable but please don't use it as an excuse for indiscriminate cadet-bashing.

[CABUS]

This Pay&Go hero bought thier way onto the flightdeck of a commercial airliner

Stick with the facts yeah! Cadets pay for the TR not for the line flying as do cadets pilots in other airlines such as Aurigney, Eastern Airways. No comments about them buying their way onto the FD. Also TCX cadets do get paid, I think it expences plus a nominal ammount.

[Dan Winterland]

But the point is that the handling pliot wasn't a cadet as such, he was paying for his training on a revenue flight. Commercial considerations clouded judgement in this case and as a result, the safety margins were clearly erroded, leading to this accident.


As an aside, one thing the A320 FCOm alludes to, but does not fully explain is that landing law is goverend by the rate of descent. However, this rate is measured by the rad alts. If the ground immediately before the threshold is not level, then the landing mode gives a different 'feel' to the landing, with the gradual change to 'direct' law coming much quicker. this results in a slightly firmer landing if you are not prepared. This is noticeable at one of my company's destiantions with a valley immediately before the runway.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Under the scheme, a cadet would pay for a ‘Jet Bridge’ course, type rating and 150 hours of line flying with the airline.

This from the AAIB report, so this is the facts....yeah.

Cadet only in the most loose of terms.

[CABUS]

If they are paying for the line training why have TCX got them on a wage i excess of 1500/month? just doesnt make sence!

Also that last comment wasnt a dig, re reading it, it came accross that way, sorry!

[General_Kirby]

Are people not getting mixed up between two different schemes? CTC cadets being selected by TC, 6 months line training on a salary, then if TC are happy with you you get a job (A very good successful scheme with very high standards etc.....OR are TC now involved in the shenanigans where a random idiot can pay a load of money for some hours flying the line, then "possibly" offered a job, when in reality they will be dispensed to make way for the next cretin with to much money. Which is it?

[flyingman-of-kent]

The full report offers a balanced and fair view, as you would expect from the AAIB. The airline were in the process of amending the training anyway, but good lessons have been learnt and applied. Rather than dismiss the whole scheme, think about BA for example who puts FO's into the right seat with many less hours than the pilot in this report.

[Todders]

All very good you older chaps in here complaining about people "paying" to get in the FD.

But please think about who let the airlines go down these routes and make these people pay for their type ratings etc. Where was the anger and dismay at your own managment pilots that decided this is the way to go to make/save the airline money.

I happened to join a 737 operator with around 300hrs experience and i had to pay for my type rating. Others with more experience joined and they had to pay the same. As has been said before just because the airlines are making it standard practice to charge you up front for a type rating instead of having you on a reduced payscale (as the worlds fav airline do) doesn't mean the pilots being employed are of a lesser standard.

Two separate issue's here i hope.

If not then we are in a bad situation.

Aptitude and ability must still be the method of selection.

[Black Knat]

If anyone on here has the relevant connections with those 'high up' in the insurance industry/City, they may like to bring this report (and similar) to the attention of them. Airline accountants don't (generally) care about safety- it's not their job. However, if airline insurers think they are going to get large bills because airlines are taking on 'new drivers' to fly their aircraft then things may well change. In the 'old days' insurance companies wanted a certain level of experience for flight deck before giving insurance, hence the requirements to build hours.

[fireflybob]

Nothing wrong with the principle of cadet pilots - dare I say it, that's how I started BUT there was a comprehensive selection procedure (including basic educational requirements, aptitude tests to assess suitability for pilot skills, team exercises and psychometric tests etc) and then we had to get through the course (and not everyone made it) and this was in the 1960s and 70s.

The training was at the College of Air Training, Hamble which was specifically set up by BOAC/BEA (now BA) to provide well trained and effective airline pilots who had good command potential. No system is perfect but I think there is little doubt that in general Hamble was extremely successful.

In my opinion there are really no short cuts to producing good airline pilots. Many of the goal posts seem to have been taken away over the years and if you start taking short cuts don't be surprised if you have the odd incident like this one.

But don't blame the individual "cadets" - any incident such as this is a product of the "system" and it this (or maybe a lack of it) which needs to be overhauled with a much more pro-active attitude as to how the airlines produce safe and effective pilots.

[CABUS]

I am not confused in the slightest! Alteon cadets are also on a wage where they work for 150hrs and then are in the same position as CTC cadets after their 6 months where they are offered temp or perm contracts depending on TC requrements.

[Flintstone]

Originally Posted by Todders

All very good you older chaps in here complaining about people "paying" to get in the FD.

But please think about who let the airlines go down these routes and make these people pay for their type ratings etc. Where was the anger and dismay at your own managment pilots that decided this is the way to go to make/save the airline money.

Todders. Many experienced pilots have been arguing against these schemes for years. Do you really think management give a tinker's cuss about their opinions? How, exactly, would those pilots already in the company have prevented their management from introducing this?

[Mercenary Pilot]

I'm not sure if it is CTC, I was under the impression that it was run by STORM aviation but I could be wrong?

How somebody progressed to line training with comments like "there is a need to greatly improve the landing technique which is still almost out of control." in thier training record beggers belief!

AAIB report

However, it was not until the tenth simulator detail that an instructor wrote any detailed analysis of the co‑pilot’s landing technique. Constraints of time meant that early action to concentrate upon correcting his landing technique was not taken and it is surprising that such a comment made at this stage of his training, did not result in an immediate attempt to remedy his difficulties.

AAIB report

The co-pilot’s training record to PPL issue was not available. The fact that he achieved licence issue in 45 hours of flying could be taken as a sign that he did not experience significant problems at that stage. However, it took him two attempts to pass the CPL skills test, and three to pass the IR test. From 2003 until he began the cadetship programme, he flew fewer than ten hours each year and not being particularly current, possibly, did not enable him to progress as straightforwardly as others through the conversion course onto the Airbus. Having failed to achieve the required standard at the simulator stage of the selection process, his second attempt was assessed not by an employee of the operator, but by an employee of the flying training organisation.

It seems to me that the "cadet" was struggling through all of their commercial flight training and was certainly not ready to step up to a complex heavy jet but due to the scheme being available, no regulations preventing it and a large chequebook it made it possable for this situation to occur.

But don't blame the individual "cadets" - any incident such as this is a product of the "system" and it this (or maybe a lack of it) which needs to be overhauled with a much more pro-active attitude as to how the airlines produce safe and effective pilots.

Spot on.

[Mungo Man]

The thought an Airbus was flown by a pilot who only had 234hrs total flying experience is just staggering. I know it is not at all uncommon, and that many get on fine, but I still find it incredible. At 234 hours I was still bimbling around in 152s enjoying myself and developing my arimanship. The thought of spending so little time learning things the hard way on your own in a lttle plane I find hard to accept as sensible.

Airlines say safety is their top priority but clearly it is influenced heavily by cost...