Latest news on Shoe Bomb (Non Political/Racial comments only)
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ATC Watcher, some additional details on 'ShoeMan' or the SneakerBomber as he is sometimes referred to on this side of the pond.
1.) Shoeman's passport had expired, and the British consulate in Brussels issued him a new one. The expired one was stapled to the back of the new, so it was apparently never lost. On examination of the expired passport, there are visa stamps for Israel and Pakistan, and several pages are torn out (which suggests he wanted to hide some of his travels from someone at some point). (More on the Isreal trip below.)
2.) The news reports on this side of the pond have consistently stated that ha had a one-way ticket purchased with cash. There have been no reports on whether the final destination on the ticket read Antigua or Miami. (I suspect that a one-way ticket from Paris to Antigua/Miami over this holiday period would not have been cheap.)
3.) Shoeman apparently had no fixed address, and the indication is that he had no job (if one sought to verify employment with an employer). However, he was well-traveled.
4.) His only luggage was a backpack. When questioned why he had no luggage, his reply was that he had clothing in Antigua, his purported ultimate destination.
5.) French police questioned him extensively, so much so that he missed his original flight. Supposedly, the questioning continued at the 4-star hotel where American paid for his lodging. There was apparently never any physical search of his shoes or clothing. There is no indication that matches were found in any search of his backpack.
6.) American's security contractor at CDG supposedly raised concerns about Shoeman when he appeared for check-in for both flights. Supposedly, at the time of check-in for the second flight, one or more of the CDG security
screeners recognized him from the day before but gave him a perfunctory wave-through this time.
7.) Shoeman traveled on El Al to Israel in July 2001. El Al security remembers him well. He supposedly fit the profile of a terrorist or potential terrorist so perfectly that they subjected him to an extensive search, including removing his shoes and scrutinizing them, before boarding him. Evan after finding nothing remiss, El Al security remained sufficiently suspicious that they sat him at the back of the cabin and sat an armed sky marshal next to him.
8.) After spending some days in Israel, Shoeman apparently transited to Egypt through Gaza. In recent weeks, he was in Belgium, France, and the Netherlands. Supposedly, the high-top sneakers he was wearing were bought in Amsterdam. (Given his height, it may be that sneakers of this type that would fit him could be more readily found there.)
9.) There is no indication that the flight crew on either American flight were alerted to any suspicions security had about Shoeman. On the flight he boarded, a woman passenger was in an adjacent seat in his row, and he did not try to light the fusing to the explosive until she had left her seat. (As an aside, this is one instance in which the no smoking prohibition may have saved an airplane and all souls on board.)
10.) The explosive was supposedly glued beneath the undersole in each sneaker. So not readily detected by a visual scan.
11.) More critically, the explosive in the sneakers was TATP, not PETN or Semtex or C-4 as earlier reported by some American news media. TATP can easily be made in a kitchen using easily obtained materials. Supposedly, it is the favored explosive of marijuana farmers, who boobytrap their plantations with it. And which is why the FBI has characterized the bombs as homemade or improvised. [Several newspapers continue to report on December 29th that PETN (Primacord) was also present in the shoes. However, the FBI in the magistrate's hearing identified only TATP as the explosive device, and further opined that to blow open the fuselage skin, the explosive would have had to been set off in a window seat. (Shoeman was assigned a window seat.) The amount of explosive in each shoe was given as 4-5 ounces, but how much of that weight is inert ingredients (for molding) has not been indicated.]
12.) TATP is highly unstable, and may readily explode prematurely. None of the basic ingredients of TATP are nitrate based, so bomb screening based on detection of nitrates might not have found the explosive.
13.) There are reports that Shoeman had bad body odor. Whether this was from not bathing or not changing his clothes is unclear. However, he did stay overnight in a 4-star hotel which, by classification, has more than adequate plumbing to wash and bathe. (One can speculate that the body odor was deliberate, perhaps to mask any odor from the TATP. One TATP ingredient has a sweet odor.)
14.) Kudoes to the cabin crew of AA 63!!! They not only saved their flight, but perhaps their airline as well. Given what is now known about Shoeman and his travels and his profile, the American tort bar could have potentially financially crippled AA with punitive damages. Unlikely this time around, given the circumstances, that Congress would have indemnified AA for this terrorist action as was done for September 11.
15.) The magistrate hearing in Boston on December 28 had the effect on detaining ShoeMan in prison until trial. Additional charges will quite likely be brought, including the attempted murder of all on board. The FBI's main effort at this point is in identifying who aided Shoeman, which would then lead to additional charges of conspiracy and the indictment of one or more co-conspirators.
16.) In response to an earlier post, the flight was diverted to Boston once Shoeman was sedated and the crew assured themselves there was no other accomplice on-board. (One can assume the passenger list for the original flight is being carefully checked.) Diverting to Canada would only mean delay in investigating Shoeman because he would have to be exttadited to the US. A diversion to Boston rather than Bangor was likely the mutual preference of the FBI, because there is a much larger FBI staff in Boston, and AA, which has a large station at BOS.
[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: SaturnV ]</p>
1.) Shoeman's passport had expired, and the British consulate in Brussels issued him a new one. The expired one was stapled to the back of the new, so it was apparently never lost. On examination of the expired passport, there are visa stamps for Israel and Pakistan, and several pages are torn out (which suggests he wanted to hide some of his travels from someone at some point). (More on the Isreal trip below.)
2.) The news reports on this side of the pond have consistently stated that ha had a one-way ticket purchased with cash. There have been no reports on whether the final destination on the ticket read Antigua or Miami. (I suspect that a one-way ticket from Paris to Antigua/Miami over this holiday period would not have been cheap.)
3.) Shoeman apparently had no fixed address, and the indication is that he had no job (if one sought to verify employment with an employer). However, he was well-traveled.
4.) His only luggage was a backpack. When questioned why he had no luggage, his reply was that he had clothing in Antigua, his purported ultimate destination.
5.) French police questioned him extensively, so much so that he missed his original flight. Supposedly, the questioning continued at the 4-star hotel where American paid for his lodging. There was apparently never any physical search of his shoes or clothing. There is no indication that matches were found in any search of his backpack.
6.) American's security contractor at CDG supposedly raised concerns about Shoeman when he appeared for check-in for both flights. Supposedly, at the time of check-in for the second flight, one or more of the CDG security
screeners recognized him from the day before but gave him a perfunctory wave-through this time.
7.) Shoeman traveled on El Al to Israel in July 2001. El Al security remembers him well. He supposedly fit the profile of a terrorist or potential terrorist so perfectly that they subjected him to an extensive search, including removing his shoes and scrutinizing them, before boarding him. Evan after finding nothing remiss, El Al security remained sufficiently suspicious that they sat him at the back of the cabin and sat an armed sky marshal next to him.
8.) After spending some days in Israel, Shoeman apparently transited to Egypt through Gaza. In recent weeks, he was in Belgium, France, and the Netherlands. Supposedly, the high-top sneakers he was wearing were bought in Amsterdam. (Given his height, it may be that sneakers of this type that would fit him could be more readily found there.)
9.) There is no indication that the flight crew on either American flight were alerted to any suspicions security had about Shoeman. On the flight he boarded, a woman passenger was in an adjacent seat in his row, and he did not try to light the fusing to the explosive until she had left her seat. (As an aside, this is one instance in which the no smoking prohibition may have saved an airplane and all souls on board.)
10.) The explosive was supposedly glued beneath the undersole in each sneaker. So not readily detected by a visual scan.
11.) More critically, the explosive in the sneakers was TATP, not PETN or Semtex or C-4 as earlier reported by some American news media. TATP can easily be made in a kitchen using easily obtained materials. Supposedly, it is the favored explosive of marijuana farmers, who boobytrap their plantations with it. And which is why the FBI has characterized the bombs as homemade or improvised. [Several newspapers continue to report on December 29th that PETN (Primacord) was also present in the shoes. However, the FBI in the magistrate's hearing identified only TATP as the explosive device, and further opined that to blow open the fuselage skin, the explosive would have had to been set off in a window seat. (Shoeman was assigned a window seat.) The amount of explosive in each shoe was given as 4-5 ounces, but how much of that weight is inert ingredients (for molding) has not been indicated.]
12.) TATP is highly unstable, and may readily explode prematurely. None of the basic ingredients of TATP are nitrate based, so bomb screening based on detection of nitrates might not have found the explosive.
13.) There are reports that Shoeman had bad body odor. Whether this was from not bathing or not changing his clothes is unclear. However, he did stay overnight in a 4-star hotel which, by classification, has more than adequate plumbing to wash and bathe. (One can speculate that the body odor was deliberate, perhaps to mask any odor from the TATP. One TATP ingredient has a sweet odor.)
14.) Kudoes to the cabin crew of AA 63!!! They not only saved their flight, but perhaps their airline as well. Given what is now known about Shoeman and his travels and his profile, the American tort bar could have potentially financially crippled AA with punitive damages. Unlikely this time around, given the circumstances, that Congress would have indemnified AA for this terrorist action as was done for September 11.
15.) The magistrate hearing in Boston on December 28 had the effect on detaining ShoeMan in prison until trial. Additional charges will quite likely be brought, including the attempted murder of all on board. The FBI's main effort at this point is in identifying who aided Shoeman, which would then lead to additional charges of conspiracy and the indictment of one or more co-conspirators.
16.) In response to an earlier post, the flight was diverted to Boston once Shoeman was sedated and the crew assured themselves there was no other accomplice on-board. (One can assume the passenger list for the original flight is being carefully checked.) Diverting to Canada would only mean delay in investigating Shoeman because he would have to be exttadited to the US. A diversion to Boston rather than Bangor was likely the mutual preference of the FBI, because there is a much larger FBI staff in Boston, and AA, which has a large station at BOS.
[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: SaturnV ]</p>
Trash du Blanc
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I still would have put it down at the nearest suitable. Let the FBI worry about travelling to get him.
This incident illustrates one of the commandments of aviation - when you're scared, stay scared. Too many accidents have occured because some crewmember/ground worker thought something was wrong, and maybe even did some preliminary inquiries, but did not assume the worst nor follow through to the final steps. Think of the agony the CDG screeners must be feeling now - their job is to stop these idiots, and they came so close, but just didn't stick to their guns.
This incident illustrates one of the commandments of aviation - when you're scared, stay scared. Too many accidents have occured because some crewmember/ground worker thought something was wrong, and maybe even did some preliminary inquiries, but did not assume the worst nor follow through to the final steps. Think of the agony the CDG screeners must be feeling now - their job is to stop these idiots, and they came so close, but just didn't stick to their guns.
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Interestingly, Triacetonetriperoxide (TATP) is the most common terrorist explosive used in Israel, largely because of its ease of manufacture. However, in order to be effective, it requires to be detonated in an enclosure (such as a pipe-bomb) and in the format used would not have been very effective. Indeed, even without being detonated, it is likely to have caused significant damage to the wearer's shoes! However, it is highly sensitive to jarring and putting it in one's shoes is akin to playing Russian Roulette with an automatic pistol.
It's actually used as a 'primary' explosive; ie one that detonates another, more powerful charge such as C4.
It is therefore improbable that much damage to the aircraft could have been caused in this case.
It's actually used as a 'primary' explosive; ie one that detonates another, more powerful charge such as C4.
It is therefore improbable that much damage to the aircraft could have been caused in this case.
Rainbow Chaser
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SaturnV
Excellent summation.
Becoming slightly Orwellian let me speculate on the future. I can begin to envisage the day when upon arrival at an airport pax are checked in, provided with a "flight suit" and slippers and their personal clothes, which themselves are of specific style/design, and handbaggage are subjected to rigorous scrutiny and heat-sealed into transparent bags by checkin staff (pax have to change in sex specific open changing rooms). Pax will go through a radiograph-style scan that will highlight any objects in body cavities. Hold baggage will be limited to non-metallic objects only, packed in soft cases. Only items bought in special shops airside will be permitted in the cabin and these items will be sealed in plastic and taken direct to the flight by the store (so a pax can't tamper with items in lavatories). All public areas (including lavatories) will be surveilled and lavatory cubicles will be on timers...anyone spending longer than a specific time in a cubicle will find the door spring open! and finally ... people will only be allowed to fly on specific airlines according to nationality having obtained "safe flyer" status by prior clearance from the authorities and accepting the implanting of a microchip (similar to the Pet ID ones) !!!
Have I missed anything?
OK so it is a dull and dreary southern UK, my car has gone u/s and I have let my mind run away with what is practical but at least these measures would mean that the risks to pax/crews airbone would revert to ATC/pilot skill/engineering!
Just kidding (or am I?).
edited to embolden SaturnV name!!
[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: brockenspectre ]</p>
Excellent summation.
Becoming slightly Orwellian let me speculate on the future. I can begin to envisage the day when upon arrival at an airport pax are checked in, provided with a "flight suit" and slippers and their personal clothes, which themselves are of specific style/design, and handbaggage are subjected to rigorous scrutiny and heat-sealed into transparent bags by checkin staff (pax have to change in sex specific open changing rooms). Pax will go through a radiograph-style scan that will highlight any objects in body cavities. Hold baggage will be limited to non-metallic objects only, packed in soft cases. Only items bought in special shops airside will be permitted in the cabin and these items will be sealed in plastic and taken direct to the flight by the store (so a pax can't tamper with items in lavatories). All public areas (including lavatories) will be surveilled and lavatory cubicles will be on timers...anyone spending longer than a specific time in a cubicle will find the door spring open! and finally ... people will only be allowed to fly on specific airlines according to nationality having obtained "safe flyer" status by prior clearance from the authorities and accepting the implanting of a microchip (similar to the Pet ID ones) !!!
Have I missed anything?
OK so it is a dull and dreary southern UK, my car has gone u/s and I have let my mind run away with what is practical but at least these measures would mean that the risks to pax/crews airbone would revert to ATC/pilot skill/engineering!
Just kidding (or am I?).
edited to embolden SaturnV name!!
[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: brockenspectre ]</p>
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Unbelievable buffoonery on the part of the UK for issuing this guy a replacement passport without question after seeing ripped out pages in his old one. Also, buffoonery on the part of the French for passing him through their suppossed check.
Trash du Blanc
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"It's actually used as a 'primary' explosive; ie one that detonates another, more powerful charge such as C4."
I believe, Guv, that the "more powerful charge" was the fuel tanks. That may explain why he did not go to a lavatory and ignite the charge in privacy. They are full aft and full forward. His seat was over the tanks.
In which case this was a pretty dam' sophisticated plan.....
I believe, Guv, that the "more powerful charge" was the fuel tanks. That may explain why he did not go to a lavatory and ignite the charge in privacy. They are full aft and full forward. His seat was over the tanks.
In which case this was a pretty dam' sophisticated plan.....
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I read that he did not pick his seat beforehand, since he got an upgrade courtesy of AA the day of the flight. I also read that he was trying to move to a window seat just before he was accosted (probably to see his feet better. Also what make anybody think that they can cause a fuel tank explosion at altitude with cold soaked fuel by blowing a hole through the floor.
Definitley not a sophisticated plan with much intelligence, but alas just the appearance of a terrorist will drive more passengers away and acchieve the desired goals.
Definitley not a sophisticated plan with much intelligence, but alas just the appearance of a terrorist will drive more passengers away and acchieve the desired goals.
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Huck - the explosive capabilities of those shoes would have been roughly equivalent to a couple of packets of firecrackers. It would only have done serious damage had it been in a container that would have concentrated and directed the blast.
Put another way: I certainly wouldn't have wanted to wear those shoes, but if I was sitting in the row behind this guy, I would almost certainly not have been injured had they gone off.
The chances of penetrating the fuel tanks and causing an explosion there would have been miniscule.
Put another way: I certainly wouldn't have wanted to wear those shoes, but if I was sitting in the row behind this guy, I would almost certainly not have been injured had they gone off.
The chances of penetrating the fuel tanks and causing an explosion there would have been miniscule.
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What a lot of 'experts' we have here... NOT! Why do the moderators allow such imbeciles to post all this drivel. We have the Guvnor going into orgasmic spasm because he has an opportunity to waffle on about explosives or guns when we all know he is a failed businessman whose only experience of authority is the ones after him for various illegal activities and lewd behaviour.
Now we have that american white supremacist Road Trip whose dear countrymen can do no wrong yet he must be a buffoon for not realiseing that it is most likely that this terrorist probably tore out the pages from his old passort AFTER the new one was issued. While I agree the French were obviously very lax in their supervision and interrogation of this man, AA do have their own security people at all foreign airports so they must be buffoons too!
Why do we have to put up with such people on here? They are either so full of themselves that they believe their own bull or they are unable to use ther underdeveloped sense of reasoning to figure out a few basic things facts.
Thankfully I have another trip so I will not be posting here for a while and those of you that believe that the sun shines out of the Guvnors arse can post your indignation at my comments so that the Walter Mitty of the airline industry can go all moist before making another of his empty "I'll sue you" threats which worries me about as much being hit by a meteorite because we all know he he would not dare as his life of lies and deception would be exposed.
So many topics are ruined by people who think they sound good but do not have the ability to back up their comments with experience.
Now we have that american white supremacist Road Trip whose dear countrymen can do no wrong yet he must be a buffoon for not realiseing that it is most likely that this terrorist probably tore out the pages from his old passort AFTER the new one was issued. While I agree the French were obviously very lax in their supervision and interrogation of this man, AA do have their own security people at all foreign airports so they must be buffoons too!
Why do we have to put up with such people on here? They are either so full of themselves that they believe their own bull or they are unable to use ther underdeveloped sense of reasoning to figure out a few basic things facts.
Thankfully I have another trip so I will not be posting here for a while and those of you that believe that the sun shines out of the Guvnors arse can post your indignation at my comments so that the Walter Mitty of the airline industry can go all moist before making another of his empty "I'll sue you" threats which worries me about as much being hit by a meteorite because we all know he he would not dare as his life of lies and deception would be exposed.
So many topics are ruined by people who think they sound good but do not have the ability to back up their comments with experience.
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Having read so many differant views I thought I'd find out myself- basically "it would appear that what shoe man would have actually achieved is far from certain "-quote - blown a hole in the aircraft or set a fuel tank off-explosives behave differantly each time and the air pressure around them is just one factor-whether he had explosive in both shoes- in what quantity and whether both shoes would have exploded is another unknown and the result again by no means certain " the problem likely to have an effect in a -pressurised tube -is the sudden lack of oxygen and the shock, wave again the actual result not certain. One things for sure - the cabin crew and pax involved deserve a medal
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Hey Ozdude,
If I don't like what Guvnor says (which is often), I ignore it.
You don't have to put up with mate, you can f--- o-- the site.
That choice is open to us all.
And no, I don't think the photons emanate from your sphincter either.......
If I don't like what Guvnor says (which is often), I ignore it.
You don't have to put up with mate, you can f--- o-- the site.
That choice is open to us all.
And no, I don't think the photons emanate from your sphincter either.......
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AA security WERE the ones who tossed him back to French security for a thorough check. Also, why would Reid (or whatever alias he choses to use today) tear pages out of an old passport after he has his new clean one?
OZDUDE - You're slander about me being a racist is beneath contempt, and is as incorrect as your other assertions.
OZDUDE - You're slander about me being a racist is beneath contempt, and is as incorrect as your other assertions.
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Guv, TATP is not the benign explosive that you imply, as if a detonation would merely have tickled Shoeman's toes. Neither you nor I have knowledge as to how much explosive material was in the two high-top sneakers. If an FBI agent is willing to state under oath that the amount was sufficient -- if exploded adjacent to the cabin wall -- to rupture the fuselage skin and cause an explosive decompression, then I will rely on his analytical judgment at this point. Assuming Shoeman is charged with attempted murder, then it will be the prosecutor's burden at trial to demonstrate there was sufficient TATP to produce such a consequence and support an attempted murder conviction.
TATP was allegedly the explosive of choice on a Philippine Airlines 742 in 1994. The device was placed under a seat, subsequently exploded, killing one passenger, injuring others, and blowing a hole in the cabin floor. This particular terrorist incident was supposedly masterminded by an al-Qaeda terrorist who is now imprisoned for life in the United States. (This 747 bombing is also thought to have been a prelude to his more audacious scheme of simultaneously hijacking/bombing 12 US airliners throughout the world.)
lomapaseo, Shoeman was not upgraded. He was in coach, sitting in row 29. I have seen no reports that there was a commotion beforehand about his changing his seat. He did attract the attention of the cabin crew during meal service by declining both food and drink.
Additional miscellaneous information from today's newspapers: the ticket price was $1,800, paid in cash, and the routing was Paris-Miami-Antigua. Taken from Shoeman's person on the airplane was a box of matches, plus several lose matches. In early 2001, Shoeman had applied for a new British passport in Islamabad, Pakistan, but for reasons unknown, it was not issued.
On the missing pages from the expired passport. It is unclear when they were removed. If one were to speculate, the most likely time would have been prior to his July trip to Israel, where the appearance of certain visa stamps might have made the Israeli's even more suspicious of him, and resulting in a denied boarding. If as the Israeli's believe, Shoeman was testing El Al security and vulnerability, then a denied boarding would have frustrated his recon.
[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: SaturnV ]</p>
TATP was allegedly the explosive of choice on a Philippine Airlines 742 in 1994. The device was placed under a seat, subsequently exploded, killing one passenger, injuring others, and blowing a hole in the cabin floor. This particular terrorist incident was supposedly masterminded by an al-Qaeda terrorist who is now imprisoned for life in the United States. (This 747 bombing is also thought to have been a prelude to his more audacious scheme of simultaneously hijacking/bombing 12 US airliners throughout the world.)
lomapaseo, Shoeman was not upgraded. He was in coach, sitting in row 29. I have seen no reports that there was a commotion beforehand about his changing his seat. He did attract the attention of the cabin crew during meal service by declining both food and drink.
Additional miscellaneous information from today's newspapers: the ticket price was $1,800, paid in cash, and the routing was Paris-Miami-Antigua. Taken from Shoeman's person on the airplane was a box of matches, plus several lose matches. In early 2001, Shoeman had applied for a new British passport in Islamabad, Pakistan, but for reasons unknown, it was not issued.
On the missing pages from the expired passport. It is unclear when they were removed. If one were to speculate, the most likely time would have been prior to his July trip to Israel, where the appearance of certain visa stamps might have made the Israeli's even more suspicious of him, and resulting in a denied boarding. If as the Israeli's believe, Shoeman was testing El Al security and vulnerability, then a denied boarding would have frustrated his recon.
[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: SaturnV ]</p>
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I just love 20/20 hind sight. They other thing would have been every body yelling about his rights. Well nothing much happened other that some inconvience. As for the Mutt in question, well at some future date, he will be strapped to a table and put to sleep. My guess is this Mutt is singing as fast and as loud has he can with the idea that Life or 40 years in a US jail is better than being put to sleep. Now some will say that its not right to put this guy to death. Well he had no qualm in blowing up an airplane full of passingers and puting them to death, he went in snow and now will have to pay the tow.
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hmmm. He had, what roughly 10 ounces of plastic. Maybe I didn't here right, but that is what I read he had. From what my military buddies say would look like a credit card about 3/8 inch thick. Didn't the NTSB use 200 grams of the same stuff to see what it would do to a 747 after the TWA800 flight? The video I saw showed a plane that nobody would have survived from in cruise. If I am converting right wouldn't this guy have had about 280 grams?
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On the missing pages from the expired passport. It is unclear when they were removed. If one were to speculate, the most likely time would have been prior to his July trip to Israel
Highly unlikely the LY selectors would have missed something that obvious IMO.
Highly unlikely the LY selectors would have missed something that obvious IMO.
Pegase Driver
Saturn V : Thanks for both very informative posts
.A bit of more speculation on the passport's missing pages: if what I read in the press is correct, Mr Shoeman went to Pakistan after visiting Israel and Gaza .If that is the case , I do not think one can enter Pakistan ( among other Muslim Countries) if one has an Isreali stamp on his passport.(unless of course you have friends in high places )
.A bit of more speculation on the passport's missing pages: if what I read in the press is correct, Mr Shoeman went to Pakistan after visiting Israel and Gaza .If that is the case , I do not think one can enter Pakistan ( among other Muslim Countries) if one has an Isreali stamp on his passport.(unless of course you have friends in high places )