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Ryanair incident Ciampino.

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Ryanair incident Ciampino.

Old 22nd Nov 2008, 17:06
  #341 (permalink)  
Sir George Cayley
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Controlling, deterring, moving starling flocks ain't easy; I know cos I've tried.

But, moving their sleeping quarters is possible with some percy verence.

Cutting down the attractive bushes around the terminal is usually not an option, so denying them time to rest is an alternative. It takes a number of dedicated staff to make a noise night after night until the flock decides to up camp and look elsewhere. But it works if taken to its logical conclusion.

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Old 22nd Nov 2008, 18:14
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A rather pretty plaza with a few restaurants I know has a rather intrusive noisy recording that they play each night at dusk, but as I said in my earlier post, maybe you just encourage them to move a mile or so up the approach so no big advantage, in fact possibly the opposite. All this crap about putting landing lights/ wx radar on has never seemed to me to make a blind bit of difference at known "problem airfields". What we really need is someone to invent a forward facing device that transmits on a frequency that they REALLY don't like. Problem is, there are so many different devices emitting electro -magnetic energy (and onboard mobile phone facilitators to come) that I wonder if any of us will be able to father the next generation of PPRuNers at the end of the day.
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Old 23rd Nov 2008, 00:20
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I was taught when doing my exams that birds around an airport prefered grass at a certain length, so measures were taken to cut said grass. Also, tips etc around the airport were moved further away.

I just wonder why grass is needed? Remove said grass, and tips, paint the areas where the grass were green, and that should move a great deal of the birds away.

Is there a reason why this isnt happening?
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Old 23rd Nov 2008, 02:23
  #344 (permalink)  
 
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I just wonder why grass is needed? Remove said grass, and tips, paint the areas where the grass were green, and that should move a great deal of the birds away.

Is there a reason why this isnt happening?
Small seed eating birds like long grass to hide and feed in.

Big birds like short grass to lounge in.

Gulls seem to like open spaces that catch water in puddles and where they can watch for predators between commutes to feedings. Fool with mother nature and she will fill the void with something worse.
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Old 24th Nov 2008, 19:17
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A very common note in Italian NOTAMS for nearly every airfield I've flown into in the summer is "caution, grass cutting in operation." Never seen it!

It used to be that Schiphol was Holland's biggest farm. I don't know if it still is, but some years ago it produced mega tonnes of hay. That, and the nice wet warm runways on a damp summer's day attracted seagulls like moths, but bigger.

Water on the runway on a summer's day is common danger. Usually the flocks will launch as you are about 100-150'. Hopefully you will go under them and miss. If the wind is too strong you might collect some as they are blown towards you. They are nigh impossible to see until you are very low, and IMHO a G/A might climb you into them. It happened to me at Riga. We were the frst a/c for 30mins and the TDZ was covered in them. Invisible into the sun. I only realised it at about 50' as they launched. ATC had done a lousy job of checking the Rwy and actioning scare procedures. A comment to them, and a report to company safety committee, sadly produced the square root of f'all.
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Old 24th Nov 2008, 22:37
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I find it hard to believe that some airports still rely on ATC to initiate scaring of birds to safeguard aircraft movements,

Bird dispersal is one thing Bird hazard control is another, the latter is the only effective one.

Aircrew should not be asking when was your last Bird patrol carried out?
They should be asking where is you bird controller?

Here is some very sound advice for any airport out there.

http://www.int-birdstrike.org/Standa...%20control.pdf

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Old 1st Dec 2008, 08:23
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The BBC breakfast programme and Radio 4 were running a rolling article every 30 minutes this morning on the starling problem in Rome. They focused on the pollution aspect and not once did they mention the Ciampino incident.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 09:19
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They focused on the pollution aspect and not once did they mention the Ciampino incident.
Maybe because the Ciampino incident was nothing to do with Ryanair's 737 being crapped on.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 14:59
  #349 (permalink)  
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I've found that green laser pointers are very effective at moving flocks of starlings. If there's a flock roosting in a tree, scanning the beam across them is spectacular...

Last edited by Self Loading Freight; 1st Dec 2008 at 15:00. Reason: (checking why laser had an @ sign in it)
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 16:57
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SLF,

A shotgun is more effective.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 23:08
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SLF,

A shotgun is more effective.
Tried it ... it aint

Took six of us with shotguns to knockdown 20 starlings in two hours out of a million or so as they came in to roost.

The little buggers simply passed the word up the incomming line where we were and the rest simply flew around us using trees for shielding.
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Old 2nd Dec 2008, 10:56
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In LIS they use trained falcons to scare the birds, and they are very effective on the job. You may not know this but all around the LIS airport there are literally hundreds of huts filled to the brim with pigeons used for races, sometimes extremely close to the airport fence. The owners of these birds are always setting the pigeons out to train them and sometimes all you can see is a cloud of feathers moving in circles, but in spite of this apparent chaotic scene the birds seem to know exactly where NOT to go, mostly because of the constant falcon patrol. Sometimes a trespassing (and expensive) racing pigeon has to fall at their claws for others to remember where the border is. Even migratory birds seem to avoid LIS airspace.

The only problem that arises with this solution is when some other type of small eagle (sorry don't know the exact name for it) engage the falcons in a territorial fight for food. Sometimes they come home like they really went trough a turbine, but they're tough little buggers.

GD&L
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Old 3rd Dec 2008, 16:04
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There are more than enough videos online of falcons attacking the large flocks of starlings. Safety in numbers and all that - doesn't really affect the starlings much at all. I'm not really sure there is anything effective that can be done.
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Old 5th Dec 2008, 23:30
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Falconry seems a good idea except it sometimes has a few problems.

Falcons cannot be flown in high wind, rain, poor visibility, or when the bird/s are moulting, the training involved is very time consuming and they cannot be just locked away at the end of the shift or be forgotten about when you go on holiday.

There is also the chance a Falcon may take a bird out, then carry it off the airfield to feed on it, then end up refusing to come back to the handler, until it has fully digested its prey, meanwhile if Falconry is the only means of control you have on your airfiled, the other birds are having a riot all over the airfield while the Falconer is trying to coax it back to his/her arm, that is if the handler can find it through its transponder signal.

One final and important thing to mention the Falcon may well become a Birdstrike statistic its self, this has happened
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Old 8th Dec 2008, 16:45
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Something I think that no-one confirmed ( although someone tried to post photo's at one stage & the link was subsequently removed ? ) Were the engines badly damaged ( fan/turbine) or did they just suffer from terminal indigestion due to the amount of poultry consumed ? ( like the rest of us in a couple of weeks time )
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Old 8th Dec 2008, 20:03
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Surely this thread is now 'for the birds'. I know they were first, but really...????
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Old 8th Dec 2008, 20:47
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When the first experiments were being done with Sapho they tried to make tape recordings of distressed gulls. Some bright spark decided the best way would be to put a gull into a cage with a cat.

They ended up with screams of a distressed moggy.
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 08:21
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Captplaystation,

From the photo's I saw there wasn't catastrophic fan blade damage but it's difficult to tell from the pictures regarding smaller damage. I'm guessing there were some 'nicks' and bent blades here and there but nothing serious enough to stop the fan from rotating.
That then points the finger at terminal ingestion but nothing has been confirmed as yet.

PJ2
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 16:37
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Ryanair thanks the crew.

They had a party with Ray Convay and Michael Horgan at Frankfurt-Hahn, a nice photo for the press and they got some kind of trophy...

MOL sended his best wishes and a "great job - well done" to them.

Nice: not only the pilots got a trophy but also the cabin-crew.


german press release Ryanair.de - Aktuelle Nachrichten : Ryanair dankt Frankfurt-Rom-Crew für Einsatz -
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 18:50
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Good to see and it will also be good publicity for Fred's flying school at St Hubert. I have had the pleasure of training some of his students and they have all been good.
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