Crew fatigue
Join Date: Nov 2006
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ray - I appreciate our jobs are completely incomparable. I have many good friends who are flight crew and not in a million years could I put up with the responsibility, workload and schedules they do, but that's why they get paid the big bucks 
Agree that fatigue is a serious issue and also agree that the rules are there as a limit, not a target but sadly the big bosses want to see everyone working as hard as they can for their money, rarely caring about any possible consequences
Agree that fatigue is a serious issue and also agree that the rules are there as a limit, not a target but sadly the big bosses want to see everyone working as hard as they can for their money, rarely caring about any possible consequences
Join Date: Jul 2001
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I think you UK chaps that work with CAP371 are missing the point. The poster said he flys overnight for 8hrs 30 mins, lands, then after a 90 min turn flys off again (he does not mention how long for). For one the Florida 2 only allows a single sector back to the UK (i think). Secondly the UK rules on ETOPS 2 Man crew are well known to be flawed, factorisation for one. There's no medical evidence to support if a 3 man crew will be less tired than a 2 man crew. the only thing that happens is one Nigel gets pi$$ed off as he does not get a landing.
The UK CAA are aware the whole subject needs looking at, and this is one area where the "experts" are looking as EU Sub part Q gave it a wide birth.
In a previous life, crews flew SFB MAN and got off. Alongside came a Spanair aircraft and the crew flew SFB-MAN-PMI.
CA371 gives plenty of protection.
The UK CAA are aware the whole subject needs looking at, and this is one area where the "experts" are looking as EU Sub part Q gave it a wide birth.
In a previous life, crews flew SFB MAN and got off. Alongside came a Spanair aircraft and the crew flew SFB-MAN-PMI.
CA371 gives plenty of protection.
DrPat, point taken. Regretfully it is only fingerpointing at this stage. Hopefully Fatigue Risk Management will really take off one day, and we can fly according to what is sensible. Meaning sometimes longer duties, sometimes shorter duties.. Everybody happy. 
Join Date: Mar 2007
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you guys have not been to Canada.14 hours max add 1 hour with an augment crew member.no seat in the back as they are all sold.and oh yah you can go unforseen to 17 hours plus 1 hour for the augment crew member.any time of day or nite.
good old TC.but you can use the fatigue card.
good old TC.but you can use the fatigue card.
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It helps to be in a small complany where the boss thinks highly of the FD crew.
Example.
Depart JED at 2am local.
No overflight clearance available from KRT, so return.
Refuel/refile via CAI/TIP FIR's, and depart.
Arrive at destination, with a weather problem.
Divert.
Wait for weather improvement at original destination, then dispatch toward same.
Call the company, and say...we are tired, please arrange HOTAC.
Company says, no problem, HOTAC informed, dispatch when you are rested, your decision as to length of stay.
An unusual occurance?
Not with this company.
The CEO is a former pilot and understands fatigue.
Example.
Depart JED at 2am local.
No overflight clearance available from KRT, so return.
Refuel/refile via CAI/TIP FIR's, and depart.
Arrive at destination, with a weather problem.
Divert.
Wait for weather improvement at original destination, then dispatch toward same.
Call the company, and say...we are tired, please arrange HOTAC.
Company says, no problem, HOTAC informed, dispatch when you are rested, your decision as to length of stay.
An unusual occurance?
Not with this company.
The CEO is a former pilot and understands fatigue.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Just to follow up. I don't know if it was because of line pilot and union pressure (doubtful) or if they just made a mistake constructing the trip. In any case the tag leg after the all night flight has been removed and crews layover. Now it flies MIA-SSA, layover 24 hours. Next day SSA-REC-MIA. A much saner pairing since it is augmented day time flying.
I don't know what prompted it but we all welcome the change. I guess it doesn't hurt to raise hell every now and again.
I don't know what prompted it but we all welcome the change. I guess it doesn't hurt to raise hell every now and again.
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Fatigue and scheduling
Does anyone remember the accident at Halifax 2 years or so ago-involving MK Airlines-the duty time was over 20 hours and fatigue played a major factor.
Unfortunately all 7 crew members died.
Unfortunately all 7 crew members died.
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We probably have one of the longer legal days out there, 18 hours on duty with 12 hours aloft. Course, the whale has good bunks. Occasionally, we are asked to perform a ferry flight after all of that time (in the US, ferry flights are not subject to duty limits). While I can expound for pages on this, what makes this work, moderately well, is that the company has an iron clad fatigue policy. The second anyone says the word fatigue, we walk off of the airplane, and the day is done. Personally, that happens to me about once a year. That's just my airline though, but if you are too tired to fly, you are too tired to fly.
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Fatigue Risk Management
Just spoken to one of our crewing people about this, and she told me she'd been on a course to find out all about it.
However, the course was scheduled at 10am, after she finshed a 12 hour nightshift at 7am.
You couldn't make it up...
However, the course was scheduled at 10am, after she finshed a 12 hour nightshift at 7am.
You couldn't make it up...
1600hrs "So what do you think of all this fatigue stuff?" "Hello! HELLO!"
Now take some physio & psycho tests and then repeat them in a couple of days when well rested - compare results.
Excellent planning!
In fact, along the same lines as going in the sim after a few beers - was interesting.
Now take some physio & psycho tests and then repeat them in a couple of days when well rested - compare results.
Excellent planning!
In fact, along the same lines as going in the sim after a few beers - was interesting.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Metal Fatigue - I suspect the seminar you attended was run by Dr Mark Rosekind. I attended one of his seminars when I was a member of the ALPA safety committee at my airline. We ran an extensive night operation out of our LAS hub and we had issues with management regarding those types of flights - tag legs after having flown all night.
In part because of the impressive evidence on fatigue that Dr Rosekind presented we established a rule that you could not start another leg after having flown past 4 am home base time (4 am considered your time of circadian low). We called this the "no sunrise service rule".
What that means for us is that after having flown a leg from HNL to PHX (departing 2230 HNL, arriving 0730 PHX) I cannot be tagged to fly PHX to SAN. The only exception to this would be if I diverted enroute to LAX (it happened) and then continued on to PHX. You do have the option to call in fatigued at the diversion station if you feel that you are unsafe to continue.
I had a good friend come close to having a CFIT incident due to fatigue. You can only delay sleep debt, you cannot eliminate it without proper rest on either side of report time for duty.
In part because of the impressive evidence on fatigue that Dr Rosekind presented we established a rule that you could not start another leg after having flown past 4 am home base time (4 am considered your time of circadian low). We called this the "no sunrise service rule".
What that means for us is that after having flown a leg from HNL to PHX (departing 2230 HNL, arriving 0730 PHX) I cannot be tagged to fly PHX to SAN. The only exception to this would be if I diverted enroute to LAX (it happened) and then continued on to PHX. You do have the option to call in fatigued at the diversion station if you feel that you are unsafe to continue.
I had a good friend come close to having a CFIT incident due to fatigue. You can only delay sleep debt, you cannot eliminate it without proper rest on either side of report time for duty.
llnfldr;
It's even worse than that for Canada's airline crews. Max duty day for two is 14hrs with a 3hr extension for "unforseen circumstances" as you say, (which is bad enough for domestic crews and schedules), but for overseas with all the time changes/circadian issues and duty days it's even worse. The CARS (Canadian Air Regulations) only recognize and provide duty period relief for one augment pilot. Most pilot associations have had to "spend" negotiating dollars to first, properly crew long haul overseas operations, second, provide SAE-standard crew rest facilities for such operations, and third, make duty periods safer by restricting duty days contractually for a four-pilot operation because Canada does not restrict them appropriately through the CARS. In point of fact, Canada does not even recognize the existence of a fourth crew member and so does not require such for long haul airline operations.
Without such legal restrictions, in Canada, a crew with one augment pilot and a "legal" (SAE-standard) bunk can legally be on duty for 20hrs, with the standard 3-hr extension available to the crew for "unforseen circumstances", making a total possible legal duty period for Canadian crews of 23 hours, or just one hour less than the legal duty period for the Ghana African crew flying the accident MK 747 at Halifax.
From the accident report:
Bear in mind that even the Ghanan regulations specified a four-pilot crew, (two captains, two first officers), with two engineers. The actual crew scheduled by MK were three pilots, which is only illegal in Canada by one hour thirty minutes for this crew's duty day.
One might conclude from this that Ghana's air regulations, as written anyway, are more restrictive than Canada's. I realize that the obvious wider practises are at odds with the Ghanan regulations but that is why the above cited actions were taken by the FAA.
If Canada is serious about SMS, the regulator can begin with appropriate recognition of the worldwide substantial research and literature into crew fatigue and the risk of accidents as well as studying those accidents where fatigue is already indicated as a causal factor, and stop leaving it up to professional pilot associations to individually negotiate safe duty day limitations.
you guys have not been to Canada.14 hours max add 1 hour with an augment crew member.no seat in the back as they are all sold.and oh yah you can go unforseen to 17 hours plus 1 hour for the augment crew member.any time of day or nite.
good old TC.but you can use the fatigue card.
good old TC.but you can use the fatigue card.
Without such legal restrictions, in Canada, a crew with one augment pilot and a "legal" (SAE-standard) bunk can legally be on duty for 20hrs, with the standard 3-hr extension available to the crew for "unforseen circumstances", making a total possible legal duty period for Canadian crews of 23 hours, or just one hour less than the legal duty period for the Ghana African crew flying the accident MK 747 at Halifax.
From the accident report:
A ramp inspection of an MK Airlines Limited DC-8 in the United States following the accident in Halifax identified several deficiencies, and on 29 October 2004, the FAA informed the company that its Operations Specification was cancelled; no specific reason was stated.In December 2004, the FAA conducted a reassessment of the GCAA and, on 30 April 2005, it announced publicly that Ghana had failed to comply with ICAO [International Civil Aviation Organization] standards. As a result, Ghana's safety rating was lowered to Category 2.
One might conclude from this that Ghana's air regulations, as written anyway, are more restrictive than Canada's. I realize that the obvious wider practises are at odds with the Ghanan regulations but that is why the above cited actions were taken by the FAA.
If Canada is serious about SMS, the regulator can begin with appropriate recognition of the worldwide substantial research and literature into crew fatigue and the risk of accidents as well as studying those accidents where fatigue is already indicated as a causal factor, and stop leaving it up to professional pilot associations to individually negotiate safe duty day limitations.
Last edited by PJ2; 21st Oct 2008 at 07:25.
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Flight time limitations, as per CAP 371 or any other country's version, are not going to be good enough on their own soon - in Europe at least. Check out the preparation for a mandatory system based on individual carrier fatigue risk monitoring systems:
Airlines to be required to run fatigue management systems
The Luxembourg pilot union ALPL recently held an excellent two-day symposium on the subject, and it will also be one of the subjects at this:
2008 Flight International Crew Management Conference
Things are moving on. It looks as if EZY really started something here.
Airlines to be required to run fatigue management systems
The Luxembourg pilot union ALPL recently held an excellent two-day symposium on the subject, and it will also be one of the subjects at this:
2008 Flight International Crew Management Conference
Things are moving on. It looks as if EZY really started something here.
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Shortfinals, thank you for the link to the article. A couple of things stood out for me on reading over it.
[QUOTE]Dr Paul Jackson, a fatigue scientist from Australia-based Clockwork Research, said that FRMS is not just an addition to an FTL regime, but ideally it should replace it, because a single set of national FTLs can never be appropriate for all types of operation.[QUOTE]
That sounds sensible. Note his use of the word appropriate. I would suggest, although I stress that I don't know, that he is implying that in cases the FTLs may not be restrictive enough, whilst in other cases it's the contrary.
Does this suggest that this company drives forward the FRMS regime not because of the any elightened or ostensible safety benefits it will provide but rather because it will allow a freer hand in utilizing crews?
The article explains that FRMS will sit alongside an FTL regulation, in order to better reflect the particulars of the operation of a given airline. This arrangement suggests to me at least, that FRMS will allow the user to modify the FTLs to suit them.
Did anyone use self-certificated mortgages to reduce the amount of money they could borrow from a bank?
Thought not.
[QUOTE]Dr Paul Jackson, a fatigue scientist from Australia-based Clockwork Research, said that FRMS is not just an addition to an FTL regime, but ideally it should replace it, because a single set of national FTLs can never be appropriate for all types of operation.[QUOTE]
That sounds sensible. Note his use of the word appropriate. I would suggest, although I stress that I don't know, that he is implying that in cases the FTLs may not be restrictive enough, whilst in other cases it's the contrary.
EasyJet's Capt Simon Stewart, who is on the ICAO's FRMS subcommittee and oversees the system at his airline, says FRMS is a system that suits EasyJet because "we are looking for optimisation and efficiency wherever we can find it".[/
The article explains that FRMS will sit alongside an FTL regulation, in order to better reflect the particulars of the operation of a given airline. This arrangement suggests to me at least, that FRMS will allow the user to modify the FTLs to suit them.
Did anyone use self-certificated mortgages to reduce the amount of money they could borrow from a bank?
Thought not.
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Caudillo
Why do you think EASA is looking at FRMS as a reinforcement for FTLs, then?
Here's another link with a few of the considerations that are at stake. Incidentally, it doesn't sound like the easy option, it sounds like a recognition that FTLs are not enough.
How not to lose sleep
Time will tell.
Why do you think EASA is looking at FRMS as a reinforcement for FTLs, then?
Here's another link with a few of the considerations that are at stake. Incidentally, it doesn't sound like the easy option, it sounds like a recognition that FTLs are not enough.
How not to lose sleep
Time will tell.
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This is all smoke screen and mirrors.
A devise to use vodoo science to make a case for crews to work longer and more often.
It boils down to the individual reporting themselves to the system and the system always blames the individual not the vodoo science that justifies the system.
Humans are not designed to strap themselves to aircraft for hour after hour sector upon sector.
Duty hours should be no longer than 9 hours - that would be a good start.
Vodoo science = a system used to present fiction as fact.
A devise to use vodoo science to make a case for crews to work longer and more often.
It boils down to the individual reporting themselves to the system and the system always blames the individual not the vodoo science that justifies the system.
Humans are not designed to strap themselves to aircraft for hour after hour sector upon sector.
Duty hours should be no longer than 9 hours - that would be a good start.
Vodoo science = a system used to present fiction as fact.
