RVSM over Africa
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Lack of ATC & radar coverage in Africa is a real problem.
If you query the ATC facility telling that readability is 2 or 3, they tell you the problem is your equipment & not theirs!!
We all know that there is varying degrees of ATC radio & radar coverage in Africa, they need to "standardise" the service we get.
I am much happier when I reach parts of Africa & I hear "radar identified".
If you query the ATC facility telling that readability is 2 or 3, they tell you the problem is your equipment & not theirs!!
We all know that there is varying degrees of ATC radio & radar coverage in Africa, they need to "standardise" the service we get.
I am much happier when I reach parts of Africa & I hear "radar identified".
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sincerely...i get your reason for panicing..but get the facts right..2000feet separation was used due to the errors inherent in altimeters of older aircrafts...with the new generation of aircraft, RVSM started to be used because of the precision of altimeters. With that in mind, what is required in RVSM airspace is for an aircraft to be upto required standards....2 altimeters with a min diff of 75ft....is one of them; in Africa each contracting state has to give a certification for RVSM approval which by the way is from ICAO/FAA....and infact, since most of the airlines using this airspace had previous certification from ICAO and have been flying in Europe and Asia...certification is valid also in africa.....therefore if an acft does not have RVSM approval, we will not allow it to fly in the airspace btwn FL290-410...hence, no cowboys, bushflyers, old antonovs....
About radar coverage, i agree it is lacking in many states but you should understand that it is not A MUST....procedural separation will suffice. There are procedures to be followed in case of turbulance, mountain waves etc and i'd urge all pilots flying over Africa to be aware of them. check ICAO | ESAF Office
ATC watcher.....i can assure you, its not about national or continental pride, we have signed the letters of agreement, ticked all the boxes, and ready to provide the ATC ......and sincerely, we aint doing it "to be like Europe"...from my desk i can tell you i had more headache with pilots competing for 310.350...
....compared to then.....separation is easier......just keep your altimeters in good condition
About radar coverage, i agree it is lacking in many states but you should understand that it is not A MUST....procedural separation will suffice. There are procedures to be followed in case of turbulance, mountain waves etc and i'd urge all pilots flying over Africa to be aware of them. check ICAO | ESAF Office
ATC watcher.....i can assure you, its not about national or continental pride, we have signed the letters of agreement, ticked all the boxes, and ready to provide the ATC ......and sincerely, we aint doing it "to be like Europe"...from my desk i can tell you i had more headache with pilots competing for 310.350...
....compared to then.....separation is easier......just keep your altimeters in good condition
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therefore if an acft does not have RVSM approval, we will not allow it to fly in the airspace btwn FL290-410...
Join Date: Dec 2000
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How about North Atlantic Tracks - no radar coverage and the first to introduce RVSM!!!!!!!
2. Operated in a generally more benign wx environment (at least as far as fewer wx deviations required)
3. Operated in a fixed track environment with quite few aircraft crossing tracks
4. Operated generally by modern aircraft, well maintained by international scheduled airlines from well regulated countries
5. Operated usually with 98% of traffic going in same direction on a given track
Now lets talk about Africa again ...... need I say more?
Topbunk, I think the point he was trying to make was you don't need radar to have "safe" RVSM. As I pointed out on the last page what most of Africa needs is ATC that works effectively both within individual countries and across borders. If you put in 100% radar coverage across the whole of Africa tomorrow it would make no difference to the ATC environment that we operate in because you can still fly over several countries without talking to a controller (despite trying) 
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S-i-D
I didn't say you needed radar, and in that respect I don't think we disagree. Indeed, to go further, I agree that what is needed for any ATC system to work (RVSM or non-RVSM) is cross border coordination, working comms, etc. Africa doesn't have it and I doubt it will in the next decade either.
The example I gave of the NAT system, was what has made RVSM on the NAT tracks a resounding success, and then asked how Africa compares
I have now made a post-RVSM transit of Africa and was pleasantly surprised that
the comms were much better than a month or so ago - immediate HF with Tripoli, better VHF with Brazza and Kinshasa, even HF with Luanda
.
Still not much in the way of Selcal though, without which the Control of ATC on HF will never be good enough and 126.9 will rule - even on my transit I heard of an aircraft at a non-standard level due conflicting traffic. At least previously the even FL's were unoccupied and 1000ft separation could be safely achieved.
For me, the jury is still out if it is better, I am thinking on balance it is with more levels available, but we still are faced with the fundamentals not being in place for proper control of air traffic.
Remind me, when does the Hadj season start
Safe flying
I didn't say you needed radar, and in that respect I don't think we disagree. Indeed, to go further, I agree that what is needed for any ATC system to work (RVSM or non-RVSM) is cross border coordination, working comms, etc. Africa doesn't have it and I doubt it will in the next decade either.
The example I gave of the NAT system, was what has made RVSM on the NAT tracks a resounding success, and then asked how Africa compares
I have now made a post-RVSM transit of Africa and was pleasantly surprised that
the comms were much better than a month or so ago - immediate HF with Tripoli, better VHF with Brazza and Kinshasa, even HF with Luanda
.Still not much in the way of Selcal though, without which the Control of ATC on HF will never be good enough and 126.9 will rule - even on my transit I heard of an aircraft at a non-standard level due conflicting traffic. At least previously the even FL's were unoccupied and 1000ft separation could be safely achieved.
For me, the jury is still out if it is better, I am thinking on balance it is with more levels available, but we still are faced with the fundamentals not being in place for proper control of air traffic.
Remind me, when does the Hadj season start
Safe flying
We don't disagree!
I guess the Hajj season will be starting in the first couple of weeks of November this year.
Heading down that way this week, guess I'll get to experience it all for myself
I guess the Hajj season will be starting in the first couple of weeks of November this year.
Heading down that way this week, guess I'll get to experience it all for myself
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Hmmm, just like in the old days.
European snobs telling the Africans just how to arrange things.
I don't suppose that it ever occurred to these European/UK snobs that ATC in Africa will always be a tad different.
Nevertheless, these same European/UK snobs keep complaining about ATC elsewhere, and yet...just where was it where two airplanes met, in RVSM airspace?
Ahhh, Europe.
Seems with these same European/UK snobs, it is continually the pot calling the kettle black...
European snobs telling the Africans just how to arrange things.
I don't suppose that it ever occurred to these European/UK snobs that ATC in Africa will always be a tad different.
Nevertheless, these same European/UK snobs keep complaining about ATC elsewhere, and yet...just where was it where two airplanes met, in RVSM airspace?
Ahhh, Europe.
Seems with these same European/UK snobs, it is continually the pot calling the kettle black...
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Except that the Swiss mid air has no relevance to this debate as it could just as easily happen in Africa with two aircraft at the same - correct - level. The Swiss mid air was caused by:
i) ineffective comms between ATC units (where else does that happen)
ii) insufficient manpower to perform the ATC role (where else does that happen)
ii) incorrect response to a TCAS RA by one party (that could happen anywhere)
So perhaps you can put your colonial stereotypes back into the box.
i) ineffective comms between ATC units (where else does that happen)
ii) insufficient manpower to perform the ATC role (where else does that happen)
ii) incorrect response to a TCAS RA by one party (that could happen anywhere)
So perhaps you can put your colonial stereotypes back into the box.
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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Hmmm, attempted hijack of a thread using irrelevant data for the sole apparent purpose of flinging one’s nose pickings in the general direction of Europe.
So, 411A, how are you feeling today, old son?
So, 411A, how are you feeling today, old son?
Join Date: Nov 2007
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411A........thanks for telling it as it is.......not very sweet words for them to swallow....
''How can you be so sure that this theoretically correct statement will be implemented by all African states?''
very fortunately, our governments have total compliance when it comes to matters aviation and ICAO implemented ...so be sure the acft 1000ft below is RVSM approved....
"The Swiss mid air was caused by:
i) ineffective comms between ATC units (where else does that happen)
ii) insufficient manpower to perform the ATC role (where else does that happen)
ii) incorrect response to a TCAS RA by one party (that could happen anywhere)
.......does pot calling kettle black sound familiar.......
"I have now made a post-RVSM transit of Africa and was pleasantly surprised that
the comms were much better than a month or so ago - immediate HF with Tripoli, better VHF with Brazza and Kinshasa, even HF with Luanda......................THANK YOU.......we are trying (if i can speak for all of us)
am also dreading hajj.......
''How can you be so sure that this theoretically correct statement will be implemented by all African states?''
very fortunately, our governments have total compliance when it comes to matters aviation and ICAO implemented ...so be sure the acft 1000ft below is RVSM approved....
"The Swiss mid air was caused by:
i) ineffective comms between ATC units (where else does that happen)
ii) insufficient manpower to perform the ATC role (where else does that happen)
ii) incorrect response to a TCAS RA by one party (that could happen anywhere)
.......does pot calling kettle black sound familiar.......
"I have now made a post-RVSM transit of Africa and was pleasantly surprised that
the comms were much better than a month or so ago - immediate HF with Tripoli, better VHF with Brazza and Kinshasa, even HF with Luanda
......................THANK YOU.......we are trying (if i can speak for all of us)am also dreading hajj.......
Pegase Driver
Atco 749 :
RVSM airborne certification is more than just altimeters accuracy , but I grant you that most western aircraft flying above FL280 will most probably be cerified by now as they come/go to other RVSM areas.
What we am more concerned with is the Former Soviet Union aircraft operating in some states in Africa .
The ground element of RVSM certification is also worrying as we are told that not everyone is trained, especially in ASECNA Countries, Any truth to that ?
compared to then.....separation is easier......just keep your altimeters in good condition
What we am more concerned with is the Former Soviet Union aircraft operating in some states in Africa .
The ground element of RVSM certification is also worrying as we are told that not everyone is trained, especially in ASECNA Countries, Any truth to that ?
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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I think it would be helpful for the purposes of this discussion if we all had a better idea of the nature of the beast. The last Flight International airliner census, as far as I recall, listed quite a few pre-glass, pre-history aircraft still operating in Africa. That is not to say that steam-driven airplanes are not compliance-capable, given the right engineering attention, rather just to provide a better idea of probabilities in the airspace. Does anyone out there have a current copy that lists types and fleet numbers?
The other concern already reflected numerous times here, and much more significant in my view, is that in many parts of Africa, compliance issues are not readily or easily enforced. A few handfuls of commonly traded currency are usually enough to make these types of puzzles go quietly into the deepest of dark, unresolved, and dangerously hidden to the unwary.
The other concern already reflected numerous times here, and much more significant in my view, is that in many parts of Africa, compliance issues are not readily or easily enforced. A few handfuls of commonly traded currency are usually enough to make these types of puzzles go quietly into the deepest of dark, unresolved, and dangerously hidden to the unwary.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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atc watcher...if you read my post correctly....i said "altimeter with.........is one of them"...... the part you quoted was in regard to "my desk" operation where one of my responsibilites is to provide separation.
From what i see on a daily basis, the antonovs,ilyushins operate at FL 180-220......but given that my FIR has few of these, the best place to check is with ARMA(AFI Regional Monitoring Agency) which is ATNS (SA Air Traffic Navigation Services) www.atns.co.za
From what i see on a daily basis, the antonovs,ilyushins operate at FL 180-220......but given that my FIR has few of these, the best place to check is with ARMA(AFI Regional Monitoring Agency) which is ATNS (SA Air Traffic Navigation Services) www.atns.co.za
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Also done a few trips this week and ATC was much better especially Tripoli HF. N'djamena still hard to get initially and Kano busy as ever. I enjoy it really, can be challenging especially Abuja into lagos in the usual thunderstorms
Last edited by pilotbear; 20th Oct 2008 at 17:42.
Paxing All Over The World
Non-pilot speaking.
After reading the complete thread, I asked a current FO in SAA what he thought about RVSM in Africa. My nephew replied about the situation in South Africa first and then continued:
This confirms 411As view.
After reading the complete thread, I asked a current FO in SAA what he thought about RVSM in Africa. My nephew replied about the situation in South Africa first and then continued:
In Africa it seems to be working, the ATC's are however very cautious regarding direct routings etc if there is any potential conflict. I'm sure it will become more familiar to them with time. I think it will be a success, provided the TCAS is working!
Interestingly a large proportion of SAA's near misses occur in European airspace with European carriers. Those that do happen in Africa are normally also involving a European carrier that is not following the correct procedure.
Interestingly a large proportion of SAA's near misses occur in European airspace with European carriers. Those that do happen in Africa are normally also involving a European carrier that is not following the correct procedure.
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With all due respect to you, Non-pilot speaking, and your nephew of course, you might want to consider traffic density in European airspace; it is, by far, one of the busiest on the planet. Your apparent contention that flight operations in Africa are competent, whereas in Euro airspace they are not, well, I leave that to the judgment of my esteemed colleagues on this board.
As for 411A, he posts with the authority of an experienced professional pilot, but he seems occasionally torn between the desire to tell the truth, and the sway of a somewhat intense personal agenda, one which is only partially revealed in the occasional tidbits he chooses to offer of himself.
Reading between the lines is an arcane skill, at best, one can only guess.
As for 411A, he posts with the authority of an experienced professional pilot, but he seems occasionally torn between the desire to tell the truth, and the sway of a somewhat intense personal agenda, one which is only partially revealed in the occasional tidbits he chooses to offer of himself.
Reading between the lines is an arcane skill, at best, one can only guess.
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Paxboy did mention "South Africa" as far as operations are concerned. But I also agree that the traffic density in Europe compared to Africa or even South Africa is, well, not comparable.
If the African continent would only learn something from the Europeans/Uk Snobs, ATC there wouldn't be such a disaster........
If the African continent would only learn something from the Europeans/Uk Snobs, ATC there wouldn't be such a disaster........