Ryanair Tail Strike at Dublin Sept 11
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: by the fire
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TRSS
Career F/Os? Some never get a look due to seniority (or lack of). There are plenty of experienced pilots out there in the market now who would probably be suitable for upgrade in fairly short order yet Ryanair will not take them on. Ryanair are recruiting experienced DEC's presumably to improve the average experience levels in the LHS. Why not give experienced F/Os a look too - it's more likely to be F/Os out of work at the moment.
BTW, not sure that your military pilot analagy works. As has been pointed out, they are carefully selected and trained. Aside from those creamed off for a first tour training appointment, they will also have been in the flying game for a number of years before they are sent off to CFS. You aren't comparing like with like.
Spanner
Career F/Os? Some never get a look due to seniority (or lack of). There are plenty of experienced pilots out there in the market now who would probably be suitable for upgrade in fairly short order yet Ryanair will not take them on. Ryanair are recruiting experienced DEC's presumably to improve the average experience levels in the LHS. Why not give experienced F/Os a look too - it's more likely to be F/Os out of work at the moment.
BTW, not sure that your military pilot analagy works. As has been pointed out, they are carefully selected and trained. Aside from those creamed off for a first tour training appointment, they will also have been in the flying game for a number of years before they are sent off to CFS. You aren't comparing like with like.
Spanner
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spanner, you are opening up a whole new can of worms there. Whether FR choose to take on experienced FOs or not is a management decision of theirs. In the recent past experienced people from other companies have been hired, however, the policy at the moment is cadet only.
Very few DECs are being hired compared to the 350+ cadets this year: the DECs fill the gap in the SFO ranks where suitable internal candidates are not available. In 2011 there may be no DEC recruitment as sufficient numbers of SFOs will be available internally; on the other hand, there may be a requirement for both DECs and direct entry FOs. Who knows?
The change of tack from the number of hours to the number of years is a natty sidestep: the military guys will get at best around 30 hrs a month, maybe more on ops these days, but certainly not the regular 850 a civilian accrues. I went to CFS with about 2200 hrs and apart from 1 other had the most hours on the course and years flying: that didn't make me the best though ( although I did win a trophy).
The LTC is not teaching basic handling skills a la QFI: he / she is honing certain skills, refining techniques, demonstrating via their application the importance of SOPs and teaching the practicalities of flying the line on a day to day basis. Everything from where the new cadet can find weather reports, to the suitability of certain airfields as alternates compared to others that aren't, to descent planning and energy management. Hardly the same as teaching Spinning 1 and 2.
The one big difficulty the modern LTC has is the lack of breadth to his / her experience as the business contracts and short haul guys stay short haul, long haul stay long haul: there is less movement sideways available. Equally, there are fewer ex military around to bring in advanced pure handling skills.
We are fortunate to have a balance of experience at FR: people who are ex military from many different countries, people with experience flying in different parts of the world, varied civilian backgrounds from corporate to widebody and many former civilian instructors: if you looked closely at the training departments of most companies you would probably find an equally eclectic mix, and that makes for balance, just as not focusing on the number hours a TC has, but taking in to account primarily their ability to teach and their motivation to teach is.
I always tell cadets that my way is not the only way of doing things: take the best information from all of the LTCs and distill and refine it. That is how we get better at this flying malarky.
Very few DECs are being hired compared to the 350+ cadets this year: the DECs fill the gap in the SFO ranks where suitable internal candidates are not available. In 2011 there may be no DEC recruitment as sufficient numbers of SFOs will be available internally; on the other hand, there may be a requirement for both DECs and direct entry FOs. Who knows?
The change of tack from the number of hours to the number of years is a natty sidestep: the military guys will get at best around 30 hrs a month, maybe more on ops these days, but certainly not the regular 850 a civilian accrues. I went to CFS with about 2200 hrs and apart from 1 other had the most hours on the course and years flying: that didn't make me the best though ( although I did win a trophy).
The LTC is not teaching basic handling skills a la QFI: he / she is honing certain skills, refining techniques, demonstrating via their application the importance of SOPs and teaching the practicalities of flying the line on a day to day basis. Everything from where the new cadet can find weather reports, to the suitability of certain airfields as alternates compared to others that aren't, to descent planning and energy management. Hardly the same as teaching Spinning 1 and 2.
The one big difficulty the modern LTC has is the lack of breadth to his / her experience as the business contracts and short haul guys stay short haul, long haul stay long haul: there is less movement sideways available. Equally, there are fewer ex military around to bring in advanced pure handling skills.
We are fortunate to have a balance of experience at FR: people who are ex military from many different countries, people with experience flying in different parts of the world, varied civilian backgrounds from corporate to widebody and many former civilian instructors: if you looked closely at the training departments of most companies you would probably find an equally eclectic mix, and that makes for balance, just as not focusing on the number hours a TC has, but taking in to account primarily their ability to teach and their motivation to teach is.
I always tell cadets that my way is not the only way of doing things: take the best information from all of the LTCs and distill and refine it. That is how we get better at this flying malarky.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trying to compare a military instructor with an airline LTC is madness.
Military pilots are usually pretty good, the selection procedure ensures that, but what makes the real difference is the training that they are then put through. The quality and expense of military pilot training ensures a great "product". Thrown the same resources at civvies and you'd also get great results much of the time. Mil pilots were all civilians at some point.
This incident sounds like a total mess.
However good RYR's training and checking system is, I would be far happier to have the same system, but with more experienced people in the front seats, or at least people with a bit more experience than just an integrated course from Oxford and then a type rating.
I've trained many people in the past who went onto to RYR and the mix is enormous. We always did our job and moved them through, but many only just scraped it. I wouldn't have employed them myself though.
All airlines have a mix of good and bad people, that's just how it is and it's a testament to RYR's SOP's that there haven't been more incidents or any major accidents.
However, when the recruitment procedure does seem to focus on inexperience and the ability to pay, over and above the quality of cadet, then you are storing up problems for the future.
It's not rocket science to see this. I wonder how far this thing can be pushed before it breaks down and someone gets hurt?
Modern airliners are much more reliable and easier to fly than they ever have been, but they aren't immune from problems. Experimenting on how low you can push the pilot quality bar is at total odds to how I see a safe operation being run.
You should be pushing for the best you can get, not who's easiest to manipulate or the cheapest. Why employ a 250 hr cadet over an experienced SFO if it isn't to do with cost? It is absolutely naff all to do with the 250hr pilot being better, that is one thing that is certain.
I was a 250hr cadert once and I know how rubbish I was then (some might say that nothings changed...!)
Safety and cheapness ARE mutually exclusive.
Military pilots are usually pretty good, the selection procedure ensures that, but what makes the real difference is the training that they are then put through. The quality and expense of military pilot training ensures a great "product". Thrown the same resources at civvies and you'd also get great results much of the time. Mil pilots were all civilians at some point.
This incident sounds like a total mess.
However good RYR's training and checking system is, I would be far happier to have the same system, but with more experienced people in the front seats, or at least people with a bit more experience than just an integrated course from Oxford and then a type rating.
I've trained many people in the past who went onto to RYR and the mix is enormous. We always did our job and moved them through, but many only just scraped it. I wouldn't have employed them myself though.
All airlines have a mix of good and bad people, that's just how it is and it's a testament to RYR's SOP's that there haven't been more incidents or any major accidents.
However, when the recruitment procedure does seem to focus on inexperience and the ability to pay, over and above the quality of cadet, then you are storing up problems for the future.
It's not rocket science to see this. I wonder how far this thing can be pushed before it breaks down and someone gets hurt?
Modern airliners are much more reliable and easier to fly than they ever have been, but they aren't immune from problems. Experimenting on how low you can push the pilot quality bar is at total odds to how I see a safe operation being run.
You should be pushing for the best you can get, not who's easiest to manipulate or the cheapest. Why employ a 250 hr cadet over an experienced SFO if it isn't to do with cost? It is absolutely naff all to do with the 250hr pilot being better, that is one thing that is certain.
I was a 250hr cadert once and I know how rubbish I was then (some might say that nothings changed...!)
Safety and cheapness ARE mutually exclusive.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The Burrow, N53:48:02 W1:48:57, The Tin Tent - EGBS, EGBO
Posts: 2,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I then have the "pleasure" of them on the jumpseat conducting my annual line check, giving me (a 15,000 hour Capt) the "benefit" of their vast experience !
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Safety and cheapness ARE mutually exclusive.
Trying to compare a military instructor with an airline LTC is madness.
However, when the recruitment procedure does seem to focus on inexperience and the ability to pay, over and above the quality of cadet, then you are storing up problems for the future.
The benefit of hiring a cadet is that you get a blank canvas: getting guys with X thousand hours to adapt to your SOPs is more intensive than starting from scratch.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With only 2 manufacturers and the extremely rigourous certification procedure for civvy aircraft types, then I'm not too fussed about the lowest bidder malarkey.
If I was in the military then I think I'd be more worried about that!
The discussion about whether it is easier to train someone from scratch or to retrain is valid, however, most SOP's aren't a million miles from each other, at least not amongst the major European carriers. Even if you do revert to an earlier method, it should still be safe enough, though obviously not ideal in anyway.
A 250hr pilot from an integrated course has never really been in total command of an aircraft or had to make the major decisions themselves until they find themselves in the LHS of a high performance public transport jet.
Sometimes you do have to throw the book away and revert to your own experience. It isn't often fortunately, but this incident has highlighted that even in a relatively simple emergency, things sometimes don't run smoothly for whatever reason.
I assume these will be investigated thoroughly and that recommendations and changes to the working practises will be made to stop this sort of thing happening again.
I'm not going to get into a discussion about Line training flights. At my first airline job I was let loose after less than 20. There are other comments that could be made, especially when you look at home RYR pilots are renumerated before their final line check. Were one to be uncharitable, then you could argue that RYR want as many Line Training flights as possible, though I think that is total nonsense.
I have no concern about RYR pilots really. I know many and the vast majority are top notch and if they don't see a problem, then neither do I. However, this incident and a couple of others have raised a few questions about some of the practises in RYR.
I'm not RYR bashing, that is boring and unfair, I'm just having a discussion about issues that I find interesting.
If I was in the military then I think I'd be more worried about that!
The discussion about whether it is easier to train someone from scratch or to retrain is valid, however, most SOP's aren't a million miles from each other, at least not amongst the major European carriers. Even if you do revert to an earlier method, it should still be safe enough, though obviously not ideal in anyway.
A 250hr pilot from an integrated course has never really been in total command of an aircraft or had to make the major decisions themselves until they find themselves in the LHS of a high performance public transport jet.
Sometimes you do have to throw the book away and revert to your own experience. It isn't often fortunately, but this incident has highlighted that even in a relatively simple emergency, things sometimes don't run smoothly for whatever reason.
I assume these will be investigated thoroughly and that recommendations and changes to the working practises will be made to stop this sort of thing happening again.
I'm not going to get into a discussion about Line training flights. At my first airline job I was let loose after less than 20. There are other comments that could be made, especially when you look at home RYR pilots are renumerated before their final line check. Were one to be uncharitable, then you could argue that RYR want as many Line Training flights as possible, though I think that is total nonsense.
I have no concern about RYR pilots really. I know many and the vast majority are top notch and if they don't see a problem, then neither do I. However, this incident and a couple of others have raised a few questions about some of the practises in RYR.
I'm not RYR bashing, that is boring and unfair, I'm just having a discussion about issues that I find interesting.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: by the fire
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TRSS
I understand it's Ryanair's trainset.
Are you saying that once a pilot learns their first set of SOPs they aren't able to assimilate changes to those SOPs? I've flown different types and seen major SOP re-writes, and with applied use on the line it is a non-event (assuming the new SOPs aren't a crock). Perhaps an airline's culture is harder to absorb but SOP changes and development are part of the scenery at most (all?) airlines.
Back to the thread
Out of interest are your 737's fitted with the short field package?
donnlass
On the 737-800 a variety of reasons, the main one - rotating too quickly (more than 3 degrees per second). Some aircraft types even require a 2 stage rotation (not the 738 though).
Spanner
I understand it's Ryanair's trainset.
The benefit of hiring a cadet is that you get a blank canvas: getting guys with X thousand hours to adapt to your SOPs is more intensive than starting from scratch.
Back to the thread
Out of interest are your 737's fitted with the short field package?
donnlass
On the 737-800 a variety of reasons, the main one - rotating too quickly (more than 3 degrees per second). Some aircraft types even require a 2 stage rotation (not the 738 though).
Spanner
Last edited by spanner the cat; 30th Dec 2009 at 03:02.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From The Real Slim Shady
So, getting back on topic, the PF who was a training Captain banged the tail on T/O and then it was a training captain who then initiated a depressurisation of the cabin !
I think the point that others as well as myself were trying to make is that some people are being promoted to training positions a bit too quickly for their level of experience that's all ......
There are no short cuts to experience, in life - it's a factor of time
Thanks guys, underpins my statement quite succintly. Ability, not hours, counts.
I think the point that others as well as myself were trying to make is that some people are being promoted to training positions a bit too quickly for their level of experience that's all ......
There are no short cuts to experience, in life - it's a factor of time
Hi DX 
Here a quote, from your good self, on another thread:
.. that's all anyone is saying here, as well. 
Here a quote, from your good self, on another thread:
I was a District Midwife for many years so spent a lot of time driving around in snowy conditions during winter - this does not mean I think I know, or drive better than everyone else, it means that I have had more experience and don't panic at the sight of a snowflake falling from the sky or two of them piled up on top of each other.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Put your willies away chaps.
That's all very well having experienced Captains, but what about the "cadets" in the RHS? Wasn't it proved a very long time ago that too steep a cockpit gradient is bad? (Rhetorical question obviously.)
That's all very well having experienced Captains, but what about the "cadets" in the RHS? Wasn't it proved a very long time ago that too steep a cockpit gradient is bad? (Rhetorical question obviously.)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The commander in the event raised in this thread had in excess of 10,000 hours, doubtlessly gained over many years, so the point you were making was …?
“…the experience and ability shown by captain Sully and his crew on US air flight 1549,should be the norm not the exception…”
Unfortunately one cannot get Captain Sully’s experience without starting with none. He once flew with only 200 hours and little experience, perhaps he should have been stopped there and then!
I have not had the pleasure of seeing pictures of the cabin crew to whom you refer, but have witnessed cabin crew from many airlines including Ryanair. I have noticed little difference in their apparent ability with regard to “restling a potential bomber to the ground”. However I’m pleased to admit that I have never seen it put to the test.
I stand to be corrected, but I assume from your location that your knowledge of Easyjet and Ryanair has largely been gained from this website. Here there is an abundance of opinion, a scarcity of facts and an opportunity to hide behind anonymity whilst grinding an axe
A little more research into facts may allay some of your fears.
“…the experience and ability shown by captain Sully and his crew on US air flight 1549,should be the norm not the exception…”
Unfortunately one cannot get Captain Sully’s experience without starting with none. He once flew with only 200 hours and little experience, perhaps he should have been stopped there and then!
I have not had the pleasure of seeing pictures of the cabin crew to whom you refer, but have witnessed cabin crew from many airlines including Ryanair. I have noticed little difference in their apparent ability with regard to “restling a potential bomber to the ground”. However I’m pleased to admit that I have never seen it put to the test.
I stand to be corrected, but I assume from your location that your knowledge of Easyjet and Ryanair has largely been gained from this website. Here there is an abundance of opinion, a scarcity of facts and an opportunity to hide behind anonymity whilst grinding an axe
A little more research into facts may allay some of your fears.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: netherlands, amsterdam
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nothing wrong with a good slamming match
I wonder, and worry, much more about the way people look at the job. I really belief pilots are worse prepared for their job in the current system. They know the freebees in the hotel by heart, but the implications of any decision made by them is an area for improvement. What happened to the armchair flying? Of all the stupid things I have done in my professional career 99% could have been avoided by thinking beforehand about them... I still feel
stupid I didn't. Any crew thinking aloud what to do after a suspected tail strike or when the alt. alert sounds could have avoided the whole situation with the touch of a single button... The amount of experience doesn't count at all, just the quality (of the brain work)
I wonder, and worry, much more about the way people look at the job. I really belief pilots are worse prepared for their job in the current system. They know the freebees in the hotel by heart, but the implications of any decision made by them is an area for improvement. What happened to the armchair flying? Of all the stupid things I have done in my professional career 99% could have been avoided by thinking beforehand about them... I still feel
stupid I didn't. Any crew thinking aloud what to do after a suspected tail strike or when the alt. alert sounds could have avoided the whole situation with the touch of a single button... The amount of experience doesn't count at all, just the quality (of the brain work)
