BA038 (B777) Thread
The book is an excellent read-it arrived on Saturday and it got read cover to cover,I couldn't put it down.
Think BA treated Pete and Maria very badly-the CC trainers should be totally ashamed of themselves.
Buy the book-it is available in many places and well worth a read
Think BA treated Pete and Maria very badly-the CC trainers should be totally ashamed of themselves.
Buy the book-it is available in many places and well worth a read
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I am another who has purchased Peter and Maria's most excellent book it is an eye opener the way the situation was dealt with by this airline and,what they have been through as a family since in coming to terms and dealing admirably with the situation.
I stand by my post a couple of days after the accident that it was a very bad management decision to parade the crew on TV as the crew were still clearly in a state of shock naturally.
Still, Peter and Maria best of luck for the future things will turn around for you of that I am sure.
I stand by my post a couple of days after the accident that it was a very bad management decision to parade the crew on TV as the crew were still clearly in a state of shock naturally.
Still, Peter and Maria best of luck for the future things will turn around for you of that I am sure.
Last edited by d71146; 8th Apr 2010 at 09:50.
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Quote from d71146
"I stand by my post a couple of days after the accident that it was a very bad management decision to parade the crew on TV as the crew were still clearly in a state of shock naturally"
Could not agree more with you d71146, a bad decision, lets hope management types have learned from it.
I will also be buying the book and look fwd to reading it.
Best wishes to all the crew and passengers on that flight.
"I stand by my post a couple of days after the accident that it was a very bad management decision to parade the crew on TV as the crew were still clearly in a state of shock naturally"
Could not agree more with you d71146, a bad decision, lets hope management types have learned from it.
I will also be buying the book and look fwd to reading it.
Best wishes to all the crew and passengers on that flight.
Last edited by Joetom; 9th Apr 2010 at 01:15.
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Whilst I think about it, Explosive decompression on an aircraft operating low level off the horn of africa one crew member almost lost. Aircraft under control - sort of, no one to hear a mayday, first opportunity lets relay it!! - great idea until you realise you get the only guy on the planet who says the exact opposite of what you said to who you want it to be said to!!! May Day calls don't neccessarily do what you want them to do!!!!
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Am I missing the point in this conversation re taking action against the Airline and individual pilot management. As a retired BA pilot it was my understanding that Captain Burkhill had taken voluntary retirement, probably trusting for further employment as a direct entry captain. Unfortunately that did not materialise for whatever reason.
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Robert f Jones wonders whether he is missing the point. Well the point is simply this. Peter was 43 years of age at the time of the accident, with 12700 hrs of flying time to his credit, an unblemished record and a loyal long serving employee of BA, whose pilot training had been sponsored by BA. He was offered and accepted so called "early retirement".
Why should anyone of his age and position retire early. It leads one to suspect that it was not a matter of retirement but was one of resignation. Is it not a possibility that there may have been irresistible financial inducements, sufficently persuasive, particularly influential at such difficult times when he was unable to exercise best judgment, for him to accept to be fitted out with the gentle cloak of retirement. So the ultimate question is was he gently leaned on, pushed or shoved out of BA.
The question for law is whether or not there is a case for constructive dismissal. Ofcourse in seeking redress in law would the outcome of such a course of action be likely to yield a better remedy for Peter and his family.
It would seem there simply is no accident without a victim.
Why should anyone of his age and position retire early. It leads one to suspect that it was not a matter of retirement but was one of resignation. Is it not a possibility that there may have been irresistible financial inducements, sufficently persuasive, particularly influential at such difficult times when he was unable to exercise best judgment, for him to accept to be fitted out with the gentle cloak of retirement. So the ultimate question is was he gently leaned on, pushed or shoved out of BA.
The question for law is whether or not there is a case for constructive dismissal. Ofcourse in seeking redress in law would the outcome of such a course of action be likely to yield a better remedy for Peter and his family.
It would seem there simply is no accident without a victim.
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[QUOTE]So the ultimate question is was he gently leaned on, pushed or shoved out of BA.[QUOTE]
Which is a very good question to ask.
I've read the book, in 2 days and that's because I was busy. These would have been trying times for a normal familiy ( 3 children in 3 years ), add a crash on top of this and you create the perfect environment for a well balanced individual to lose the plot.
Now, who is the sleezy twatt who sold that chocolate licking picture to the tabloïds ?
Second, how in God's name could a man let himself be so put down by trolley dollies gossip and quit his job ??
Third, BALPA calls itself a union ??? LOL !!! That's your idea of supporting a colleague ?? Go for a curry and get sloushed after a major accident ??? And then leave him with a fig leave when it comes to salary and reputation ?? We've heard the lousy job BA managers did but hey !!! smell the coffee here, what about BALPA when it came to the man's reputation. Nothing but a very loud silence. How about facing those trainers and do what you wrere supposed to do.............represent a member ???? Let me explain the concept to you : It spells " Making a claim on somebody else's behalf who cannot, at the given time, defend himself as well as he otherwise would " Capicce ???
I'm sure no one at BA or BALPA gives a toss about Peter Burkill's fate and now he is out not even his book will create a ripple in this " pond of corporate tranquility " .
Which is a very good question to ask.
I've read the book, in 2 days and that's because I was busy. These would have been trying times for a normal familiy ( 3 children in 3 years ), add a crash on top of this and you create the perfect environment for a well balanced individual to lose the plot.
Now, who is the sleezy twatt who sold that chocolate licking picture to the tabloïds ?
Second, how in God's name could a man let himself be so put down by trolley dollies gossip and quit his job ??
Third, BALPA calls itself a union ??? LOL !!! That's your idea of supporting a colleague ?? Go for a curry and get sloushed after a major accident ??? And then leave him with a fig leave when it comes to salary and reputation ?? We've heard the lousy job BA managers did but hey !!! smell the coffee here, what about BALPA when it came to the man's reputation. Nothing but a very loud silence. How about facing those trainers and do what you wrere supposed to do.............represent a member ???? Let me explain the concept to you : It spells " Making a claim on somebody else's behalf who cannot, at the given time, defend himself as well as he otherwise would " Capicce ???
I'm sure no one at BA or BALPA gives a toss about Peter Burkill's fate and now he is out not even his book will create a ripple in this " pond of corporate tranquility " .
Last edited by Me Myself; 9th Apr 2010 at 06:49.
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I seem to remember that on early retirement or voluntary severance as BA call it you sign to say that you will not take any legal action against BA. Don't know if this would actually stand up to legal scrutiny.
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The book, a terrific read, raises more questions than it answers.
My lasting impression will be one that the Burkill's treatment by his employer was an utter disgrace.
Why was the Captain isolated from his crew in the immediate aftermath?
Why all the immediate questioning after the end of a very long traumatic day?
How can any organisation promote getting its staff drunk as a solution to dealing with shock?
Why was he kept from the ones that he cared about for so long?
Why was there no moral, humanitarian and immediate financial support given to his wife and family?
Couldn't his employer even provide him with some clothing at the end of the day?
Why couldn't the internal report be produced in a more timely manner and when it was, why were the findings concealed from all but the management?
The company's disinterest or inability to deal with the rumours.
etc. etc. etc.
There seems to be a huge warning sign to this company's aircrew here - avoid accidents at all costs, because your employer is not going to do the right thing by you after the event.
I'm left bemused. Did Capt. Burkill and his F/O achieve the same outcome as Capt. Sullenberger and his F/O? Perhaps, by virtue of the later timescale, that statement should be reversed - but the US Air crew would not have been keen on Peter's treatment, would they.
If that is indeed the case and passengers and friends and families from both accidents are able to make the most of the lives that they are now lucky enough to have to-gether - then why are the different situations that these two pilots find themselves in like chalk from cheese?
Is this a European/British psyche versus the American? We know how good the British media are at shooting the good guys off pedestals!
Having gone through a clearly horrendous time, how long would it take and with what psychological support would the average person be able to make sound decisions about the shape their future should take? Even one that had shown the ultimate professionalism in the cockpit.
Yet again, the uninformed point the finger at his (their) decision making with little understanding of the pressures on them at probably a very emotional and vulnerable time.
We would like to think that passengers and their Friends & Family are well catered for post accident by the world's leading airlines.
Have some overlooked their crew's needs?
The accident happened at the airline's base - Heathrow. One can but contemplate their fete had the aircraft come down on another continent and the nights that his wife might have had to cope all alone having been instructed by B.A. to leave the sanctity of her own home.
BALPA ......on second thoughts, if all you'll need is a curry and a stiff drink, keep paying your dues.
Hopefully this whole fiasco will become an academic case study for an esteemed psychologist/psychiatrist and lessons can be learned and safeguards enshrined.
My lasting impression will be one that the Burkill's treatment by his employer was an utter disgrace.
Why was the Captain isolated from his crew in the immediate aftermath?
Why all the immediate questioning after the end of a very long traumatic day?
How can any organisation promote getting its staff drunk as a solution to dealing with shock?
Why was he kept from the ones that he cared about for so long?
Why was there no moral, humanitarian and immediate financial support given to his wife and family?
Couldn't his employer even provide him with some clothing at the end of the day?
Why couldn't the internal report be produced in a more timely manner and when it was, why were the findings concealed from all but the management?
The company's disinterest or inability to deal with the rumours.
etc. etc. etc.
There seems to be a huge warning sign to this company's aircrew here - avoid accidents at all costs, because your employer is not going to do the right thing by you after the event.
I'm left bemused. Did Capt. Burkill and his F/O achieve the same outcome as Capt. Sullenberger and his F/O? Perhaps, by virtue of the later timescale, that statement should be reversed - but the US Air crew would not have been keen on Peter's treatment, would they.
If that is indeed the case and passengers and friends and families from both accidents are able to make the most of the lives that they are now lucky enough to have to-gether - then why are the different situations that these two pilots find themselves in like chalk from cheese?
Is this a European/British psyche versus the American? We know how good the British media are at shooting the good guys off pedestals!
Having gone through a clearly horrendous time, how long would it take and with what psychological support would the average person be able to make sound decisions about the shape their future should take? Even one that had shown the ultimate professionalism in the cockpit.
Yet again, the uninformed point the finger at his (their) decision making with little understanding of the pressures on them at probably a very emotional and vulnerable time.
We would like to think that passengers and their Friends & Family are well catered for post accident by the world's leading airlines.
Have some overlooked their crew's needs?
The accident happened at the airline's base - Heathrow. One can but contemplate their fete had the aircraft come down on another continent and the nights that his wife might have had to cope all alone having been instructed by B.A. to leave the sanctity of her own home.
BALPA ......on second thoughts, if all you'll need is a curry and a stiff drink, keep paying your dues.
Hopefully this whole fiasco will become an academic case study for an esteemed psychologist/psychiatrist and lessons can be learned and safeguards enshrined.
Last edited by GK430; 9th Apr 2010 at 07:57.
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GK340, the points you have raised are excellent and were exactly what I was thinking when I was reading the book.
BA and BALPA handled this dreadfully. Were Cpt Eric Moody and the rest of his crew treated like this by BA after their incident back in 1982? Were Cpt Tim Lancaster, F/O Alastair Atchison and the rest of their crew treated like this by BA after their incident back in 1990?
As for your point about US Airways 1549 - I did initially think about that. However, with the US Airways incident, it was far more obvious to the public at the time that it was not pilot error, whereas with BA 038 it was not absolutely known what the problem was and whether the crew had made a slip up during the flight.
I also wondered why the ATC tapes were released to the public for the US Airways flight and not BA flight. Could somebody answer this? I'm assuming (and most likely wrong) that it was because there were two mistakes (understable given the pressure!!!!!) by Pete on the BA ATC tapes - even though they were very minor.
BA and BALPA handled this dreadfully. Were Cpt Eric Moody and the rest of his crew treated like this by BA after their incident back in 1982? Were Cpt Tim Lancaster, F/O Alastair Atchison and the rest of their crew treated like this by BA after their incident back in 1990?
As for your point about US Airways 1549 - I did initially think about that. However, with the US Airways incident, it was far more obvious to the public at the time that it was not pilot error, whereas with BA 038 it was not absolutely known what the problem was and whether the crew had made a slip up during the flight.
I also wondered why the ATC tapes were released to the public for the US Airways flight and not BA flight. Could somebody answer this? I'm assuming (and most likely wrong) that it was because there were two mistakes (understable given the pressure!!!!!) by Pete on the BA ATC tapes - even though they were very minor.
BA038
May I offer another reaon why I absolutely believe this whole thing stinks.
In the last ten years or so TWO One World jets have been destroyed, a QF 744 in BKK (yes I know it was "repaired" ) and the BA777 at LHR.
I have read the accident reports on both :
In one, a perfectly serviceable jet was "badly mishandled" being polite after reading the CASA synopsis. The Captain still flies, with his original employer, having made some very serious and fundamental errors of basic airmanship which caused the "loss" of his aircraft. I make that statement after almost 20 years in the LHS of various Boeings and after reading the report in detail.
In the other, a captain saved a situation which few, if any, of us had been trained for. He had less than 50 seconds before he hit the ground. The report makes NO significant criticism of his handlng of the event and concurrs that his flap retraction WAS the right and only thing he could have done to save the day.
This captain is now out of a job.
That, to me at least, seems a HUGE injustice.
In the last ten years or so TWO One World jets have been destroyed, a QF 744 in BKK (yes I know it was "repaired" ) and the BA777 at LHR.
I have read the accident reports on both :
In one, a perfectly serviceable jet was "badly mishandled" being polite after reading the CASA synopsis. The Captain still flies, with his original employer, having made some very serious and fundamental errors of basic airmanship which caused the "loss" of his aircraft. I make that statement after almost 20 years in the LHS of various Boeings and after reading the report in detail.
In the other, a captain saved a situation which few, if any, of us had been trained for. He had less than 50 seconds before he hit the ground. The report makes NO significant criticism of his handlng of the event and concurrs that his flap retraction WAS the right and only thing he could have done to save the day.
This captain is now out of a job.
That, to me at least, seems a HUGE injustice.
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You couldn't have summed it up better RetiredBA/BY!
"This captain is now out of a job. That, to me at least, seems a HUGE injustice" me too and I'm sure a whole lot of other folk!
"This captain is now out of a job. That, to me at least, seems a HUGE injustice" me too and I'm sure a whole lot of other folk!
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RetiredBA/BY/J.Jetset
I also agree with your comments, it is a HUGE injustice - it is a national disgrace, which makes me ashamed to be British.
I have just started to read Peter and Marias book, so I will be returning.
I have just started to read Peter and Marias book, so I will be returning.
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Why don't you folk at BA and other British airlines and unions get together and petition the heck out of BA to fix the situation.
They could now make some great publicity out of it........ or more the point Virgin Atlantic, and Sir Richard is always looking for a timely shot at BA. That would be a sweet victory for VA.
After all he offered Sully the world if he wanted it........
They could now make some great publicity out of it........ or more the point Virgin Atlantic, and Sir Richard is always looking for a timely shot at BA. That would be a sweet victory for VA.
After all he offered Sully the world if he wanted it........
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Not part of the industry, but as this discussion seems to be considering attitudes and actions of senior managers I'd just like to make an observation if I could, based on experience of similar happenings in other industries.
Of course its an injustice, an absolutely terrible injustice, but senior managers don't seem to want, for want of a better term 'heroes' - leaders who can perform under terrific pressure and cope with the most dire of circumstances in a way that perhaps many couldn't. They don't want people who the general public look up to and recognise are deserving of the utmost respect, because, I suspect they show where the TRUE worth and professionalism lies. Their presence could become an embarrassment and result in a lack of public support for management at the next round of pay cuts etc, or worse still, when it is revealed how much the CEO and his mates earn compared to the real 'heroes'. So after the initial lauding, they are quietly pushed to one side to avoid further embarrassment.
Sorry for butting in, but my thanks to all those to whom I entrust my life every time I step on an aircraft.
Of course its an injustice, an absolutely terrible injustice, but senior managers don't seem to want, for want of a better term 'heroes' - leaders who can perform under terrific pressure and cope with the most dire of circumstances in a way that perhaps many couldn't. They don't want people who the general public look up to and recognise are deserving of the utmost respect, because, I suspect they show where the TRUE worth and professionalism lies. Their presence could become an embarrassment and result in a lack of public support for management at the next round of pay cuts etc, or worse still, when it is revealed how much the CEO and his mates earn compared to the real 'heroes'. So after the initial lauding, they are quietly pushed to one side to avoid further embarrassment.
Sorry for butting in, but my thanks to all those to whom I entrust my life every time I step on an aircraft.
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I really really liked the book and would like to thank Peter and Maria for writing it. It is a heartbreaking story - I am a pilot but in some respects the parts of the book which affected me most were Maria's accounts of how she and the children coped in the hours, days and weeks which followed the crash. The book is well written and I would recommend it to anyone.
I have now given some serious thought to the steps I would take in the immediate aftermath of such a serious incident. My wife and I also have a far clearer idea now of what we would need to do to as a family and how we might deal with the press intrusion.
I hope, like the authors, that this book will cause BA to stop and think about its internal procedures. In particular I find it bizarre that BA had no procedure for taking care of Maria and the children in the hours after the incident. If they want the wives of staff members to avoid the press perhaps they might consider being a bit more proactive in helping out when a pack of photographers pitch up outside? I also find it hard to understand how Flight Ops managers appeared unable to address some defamatory statements about Peter being issued from SEP trainers.
Peter I'm sorry you felt you had to leave BA. I hope life works out. I know there is something of a campaign to get you back in which I hope works out if that's what you want to do now.
You - and your wife - are heroes.
I have now given some serious thought to the steps I would take in the immediate aftermath of such a serious incident. My wife and I also have a far clearer idea now of what we would need to do to as a family and how we might deal with the press intrusion.
I hope, like the authors, that this book will cause BA to stop and think about its internal procedures. In particular I find it bizarre that BA had no procedure for taking care of Maria and the children in the hours after the incident. If they want the wives of staff members to avoid the press perhaps they might consider being a bit more proactive in helping out when a pack of photographers pitch up outside? I also find it hard to understand how Flight Ops managers appeared unable to address some defamatory statements about Peter being issued from SEP trainers.
Peter I'm sorry you felt you had to leave BA. I hope life works out. I know there is something of a campaign to get you back in which I hope works out if that's what you want to do now.
You - and your wife - are heroes.
Drain Bamaged
Talk about being hang out dry by blatantly non founded gossip and rumors!
Those SEP trainers should have been fired
Does anyone know if they have been at list reprimanded ?
The way BA's management handle the situation is a total disgrace!
Those SEP trainers should have been fired
Does anyone know if they have been at list reprimanded ?
The way BA's management handle the situation is a total disgrace!
OverFlare
I also find it hard to understand how Flight Ops managers appeared unable to address some defamatory statements about Peter being issued from SEP trainers.