Ryanair Loss of Pressurisation 25th Aug
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I would recommend anyone wanting to know about oxygen masks and flow etc, to read SN3Guppy on Why don't Oxygen Mask "bags" inflate?
on post 5 on the Questions page.
Its the most informative post you are ever likely to read about the subject, in my view, and will possibly make that arctic explorer sit up and think!!
on post 5 on the Questions page.
Its the most informative post you are ever likely to read about the subject, in my view, and will possibly make that arctic explorer sit up and think!!
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no-one has given any indication of how high the cabin went i.e. whether or not the passengers were actually exposed to any non-breathable low pressure
I seriously doubt whether many of these whingers are fit for the gene pool. It is all in the briefing! What else can you do but 'pull the mask towards your mouth and nose and breath normally'? There is nothing else to grab a hold of, so maybe do as one is told 'pull the mask towards your mouth and nose and breath normally', even if, according to your judgement, it doesn't seem to be working! Do you expect bells and whistles to show the mask is working? Anybody who stands to place their face on the mask- the world is definitely a better place without them breeding subsequently. What is not clear? What is not clear about 'see to yourself first before taking care of others'? It is the fools who don't listen and watch who risk others, because it is possible the cabin crew may risk their own safety to help these candidates for gene extermination! They are fools, and Hadow demonstrated not listening to the briefing, and frankly, no amount of additional briefing would get these people to understand you 'pull the bloody thing to your mouth and nose and breath normally'! You don't need PAs, you don't need personal demonstrations in the event of an emergency, you don't need a video of Jordan placing a mask over her mouth and nose (after pulling it of course), you DO need to have watched the briefing and read the card and understood it! Unfortunately with the lowering of education standards and general decrease in IQ, even that is too much for many people. The world is better off without them.
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Thanks for your candid response Rainboe "It got high" ... I am not so daft as not to recognise that as straight-talking from an aviator in true aviation fashion and armed with what you have concluded (I am sure you have your sources too) I accept your suggestion - the back up life support must have worked.
However, as I mentioned before there's a bunch of us with not unduly shabby IQs that might easily have observed things much as Pen Hadow did purely because despite hundreds of flights, we were hesitant about pulling the things too hard, didn't know there were four masks to one pin and one candle, and just hadn't a clue that there may still be a risk of hyperventilating if we sucked too much before we blew or whatever
On that score, this has been an particularly enlightening thread for informed passengers I think. It may even save a heart-attack or two now everyone understands that so long as they can don their mask, they may as well go back to sleep for another 10 minutes rather than panic because they see no bags inflating
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Flintstone I'm sorry if I misunderstood the gist of your posts. I marked you out as banging on that airlines DO routinely tell passengers about what to expect with regard to bag inflation.
Ryanair is a big airline in Europe of course but they DO NOT routinely tell their passengers about that particular aspect. This is a Ryanair incident, so that's why I turned your comments around ... so I hope I'm not too far off the mark
PS I'd still really like to know what went wrong, or is that still to much to ask?
However, as I mentioned before there's a bunch of us with not unduly shabby IQs that might easily have observed things much as Pen Hadow did purely because despite hundreds of flights, we were hesitant about pulling the things too hard, didn't know there were four masks to one pin and one candle, and just hadn't a clue that there may still be a risk of hyperventilating if we sucked too much before we blew or whatever
On that score, this has been an particularly enlightening thread for informed passengers I think. It may even save a heart-attack or two now everyone understands that so long as they can don their mask, they may as well go back to sleep for another 10 minutes rather than panic because they see no bags inflating
.Flintstone I'm sorry if I misunderstood the gist of your posts. I marked you out as banging on that airlines DO routinely tell passengers about what to expect with regard to bag inflation.
Ryanair is a big airline in Europe of course but they DO NOT routinely tell their passengers about that particular aspect. This is a Ryanair incident, so that's why I turned your comments around ... so I hope I'm not too far off the mark
PS I'd still really like to know what went wrong, or is that still to much to ask?
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I hope that was indeed the sequence of events here, as the previous Limoges incident "may" have ended with a precipitious evacuation given the absence of fire or any life threatening circumstances ( with the caveat here being that the report hasn't been published so that opinion is firmly in the "rumours" section of rumours and news )
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slip and turn, go to the naughty corner please!
The briefing is simple and concise: Pull the mask to your mouth and nose and breath normally! See to yourself before seeing to others!
We don't listen, do we? You don't have to know that it takes just one pull to set off each seat row generator, do we? The first pull will deliver immediate oxygen. You just reach out and pull the thing to your face, and breath normally. It's all there in 2 sentences. But people read newspapers and talk to each other whilst the cabin crew go through the motions , even demonstrating to everyone how to pull the mask and bring it to your face!
If there was any breakdown in the system, I would be first to call for changes to be made, but it is in fact as good as you can get. The failure is people who are plain stupid, and ignorant. They are not good breeding stock anyway.
Jet Fuel Addict- when you are a bit more experienced in this industry, you will come to learn almost every single evacuation results in some broken bones or serious injury. It is not something to be called on lightly- definitely only when other major factors are involved. Can you imagine the scene with injuries or unconsciousness involved and an evacuation ordered 'because there might be some structural damage'? Can you imagine Qantas baling out?
we were hesitant about pulling the things too hard, didn't know there were four masks to one pin and one candle, and just hadn't a clue that there may still be a risk of hyperventilating if we sucked too much before we blew or whatever
We don't listen, do we? You don't have to know that it takes just one pull to set off each seat row generator, do we? The first pull will deliver immediate oxygen. You just reach out and pull the thing to your face, and breath normally. It's all there in 2 sentences. But people read newspapers and talk to each other whilst the cabin crew go through the motions , even demonstrating to everyone how to pull the mask and bring it to your face!
If there was any breakdown in the system, I would be first to call for changes to be made, but it is in fact as good as you can get. The failure is people who are plain stupid, and ignorant. They are not good breeding stock anyway.
Jet Fuel Addict- when you are a bit more experienced in this industry, you will come to learn almost every single evacuation results in some broken bones or serious injury. It is not something to be called on lightly- definitely only when other major factors are involved. Can you imagine the scene with injuries or unconsciousness involved and an evacuation ordered 'because there might be some structural damage'? Can you imagine Qantas baling out?
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I'm astonished that people are still arguing that Pax need more information about this.
It's simple, pull mask to put over your mouth. They don't need to know why the bag doesn't inflate they don't need to know how hard to pull the mask just follow the simple instructions. The only time you'd ever need to remember to pull the mask toward you would be if you were stood at the toilets and grabbed the nearest dangling mask.
Let's be honest, if your mask wasn't working for some bizarre and unlikely reason there is very little you will be able to do about it anyway.
What next, Pax needing to be briefed on what happens during a G/A, rejected T/O etc...
It's simple, pull mask to put over your mouth. They don't need to know why the bag doesn't inflate they don't need to know how hard to pull the mask just follow the simple instructions. The only time you'd ever need to remember to pull the mask toward you would be if you were stood at the toilets and grabbed the nearest dangling mask.
Let's be honest, if your mask wasn't working for some bizarre and unlikely reason there is very little you will be able to do about it anyway.
What next, Pax needing to be briefed on what happens during a G/A, rejected T/O etc...
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I don't agree. It sounds like there is an ergonomics issue here. Passengers are incorrectly assuming masks aren't working and some may try to change seat. Imagine someone shouting "they are all working down the back" and whole sections trying to rush aft. You might even get people taking off their working masks to join the general rush, people climbing over seats, people trampled in the isle etc. Can't happen? Panic can trigger big problems in a crowded situation.
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That's why the seat belt signs will be on. If they are going to do something really stupid, then they are not worth saving. I would be more concerned the cabin crew were safe and on a supply than giving any thought to idiots dropping a mask and moving around. Sometimes you cannot save people from their own stupidity. It's all there in the briefing (that they weren't watching). No point wasting any more time or effort on them. Maybe some of you would like people should only be allowed to travel if they have a 5 yearly certificate to show they have completed a ground training course in a safety training centre and been through all this nitty gritty training to get their certificate to permit them to fly? What else do some of you want? Or maybe just sitting for 3 minutes and watching the adequate safety briefing might suffice instead?
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Just one question, if I may.
The simple act of pulling the mask to your face, without any force in excess of that necessary to just pull it towards you, will be enough to release the pin and start the oxygen flow. Fine. Most SLF can accept that, newspaper reading types notwithstanding. Why, then, do cc always use a double tug motion when they do the safety briefing? You've all seen them do it, one hand holding the tube up to the ceiling, the other pulling the mask down in a 'tug-tug' motion.
That visual cue suggests having to tug at the mask, pulling it harder than the force that we know will in fact be enough. So, us canned goods in the back are being told one thing, but being shown another.
Fair enough, the briefing deserves more attention than it gets, but ultimately if a process isn't working (ie, the briefing isn't getting through) then the process should be improved. Maybe it might be worth starting with the alignment of visual cues with the aural ones.
And apropos of nothing much, it's all very well sitting in judgement saying 'well, we've gone through the briefing, what more can we do?' but as aviation professionals you should bear in mind that we in the back aren't. We don't train for emergencies, we don't have simulator rides, we don't do this day in day out. And when the brown stuff hits the fan we panic and do and think stupid things. That's why we're at the back and you're at the front.
The simple act of pulling the mask to your face, without any force in excess of that necessary to just pull it towards you, will be enough to release the pin and start the oxygen flow. Fine. Most SLF can accept that, newspaper reading types notwithstanding. Why, then, do cc always use a double tug motion when they do the safety briefing? You've all seen them do it, one hand holding the tube up to the ceiling, the other pulling the mask down in a 'tug-tug' motion.
That visual cue suggests having to tug at the mask, pulling it harder than the force that we know will in fact be enough. So, us canned goods in the back are being told one thing, but being shown another.
Fair enough, the briefing deserves more attention than it gets, but ultimately if a process isn't working (ie, the briefing isn't getting through) then the process should be improved. Maybe it might be worth starting with the alignment of visual cues with the aural ones.
And apropos of nothing much, it's all very well sitting in judgement saying 'well, we've gone through the briefing, what more can we do?' but as aviation professionals you should bear in mind that we in the back aren't. We don't train for emergencies, we don't have simulator rides, we don't do this day in day out. And when the brown stuff hits the fan we panic and do and think stupid things. That's why we're at the back and you're at the front.
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Well said, lawyerboy.
The problem, which rainboe clearly can't comprehend, isn't a failure to listen to the briefing, or even a failure to correctly don the mask. It seems to be the complete lack of any clues to the pax that the system is working. The bag doesn't inflate, the flow is so weak it can't be felt, and Rainboe expects every one of the self-loading freight to sit happily and believe!
Perhaps he would like to fly the thing with no feedback, no warning lights, no instruments and the seat of his pants turned off.
The problem, which rainboe clearly can't comprehend, isn't a failure to listen to the briefing, or even a failure to correctly don the mask. It seems to be the complete lack of any clues to the pax that the system is working. The bag doesn't inflate, the flow is so weak it can't be felt, and Rainboe expects every one of the self-loading freight to sit happily and believe!
Perhaps he would like to fly the thing with no feedback, no warning lights, no instruments and the seat of his pants turned off.
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Who uses a 'double tug' motion during the pax briefing ? Ryan Air don't, you can see their briefing here http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wklnjZ8-jeQ&feature
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I know exactly what Lawyerboy means by the 'double tug'. I think the FA just means to emphasise the action, but it is confusing.
Sooty's point is spot-on too. There's no way of knowing whether the mask is working, and your own awareness of your body is probably shot to pieces by the panic.
Additionally, something I didn't know before this thread was that the masks seem to drop in a clump, which presumably must be untangled? I thought a single mask would drop in front of me. That's about the last thing I want to learn for the first time in a crisis.
Sooty's point is spot-on too. There's no way of knowing whether the mask is working, and your own awareness of your body is probably shot to pieces by the panic.
Additionally, something I didn't know before this thread was that the masks seem to drop in a clump, which presumably must be untangled? I thought a single mask would drop in front of me. That's about the last thing I want to learn for the first time in a crisis.
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They drop in a clump. Grab any one and pull it to your mouth and nose.....just like demonstrated in the briefing. You don't have to disentangle, untie, clean or rub it! Give it a single tug, double tug, treble tub as you like! If that is beyond you, then all hope is lost! Better to leave the bag off I think if it is going to cause so much doubt!
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Who uses a 'double tug' motion
I truly believed it needed a good tug.....there you go.....now wheres me sled and huskies
?
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If I understand the outcome correctly, all but one passenger seemingly did the right thing and nobody, even the wrongdoer, suffered from lack of oxygen. If a ‘celebrity’, who should know better, had not mouthed off, stating opinion as fact we would not be up to 400 posts on a well executed emergency procedure. The crew would have been praised and many nervous passengers saved from his outburst would have taken comfort from the success of the operation.
If a change in procedure is required as one or two ‘experts’ on this thread espouse, I expect those experienced in these matters and in the position to oblige will take heed.
Meanwhile let’s hope more folk will listen to the demonstration, or at least let others do so without interruption.
If a change in procedure is required as one or two ‘experts’ on this thread espouse, I expect those experienced in these matters and in the position to oblige will take heed.
Meanwhile let’s hope more folk will listen to the demonstration, or at least let others do so without interruption.
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Double tug or not, the bit of string between the safety pin and the mask is shorter than the hose length, so the act of pulling any of the masks from one PSU towards you, will invariably pull the firing pin and start the O2 generator. Sorry if this has been covered before, but I think this article is getting a bit laboured now. I agree with ASFKAP, it's all too easy to set one off when fitting them, so that gives you an idea of the force required.
As far as I can see the crew done a fantastic job and this should be recognised accordingly. Well done guys.
As far as I can see the crew done a fantastic job and this should be recognised accordingly. Well done guys.
I call you back
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When they raise their hands and point twice at the exits they are indicating how to get to the exits, not that they want you to go to the exits with your hands in the air pointing twice.
The double tug is instinctive, it is to emphasise a pulling down motion.
Well done to the crew.
The double tug is instinctive, it is to emphasise a pulling down motion.
Well done to the crew.
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When they raise their hands and point twice at the exits they are indicating how to get to the exits, not that they want you to go to the exits with your hands in the air pointing twice.
The double tug is instinctive, it is to emphasise a pulling down motion.
of course being SLFs in case of emergency they will evacuate with their hands in the air pointing twice, wearing the mask and still buckled to the seat because they did not understood how to release the seat belt...
How often you see passengers "fighting" to open the toilette doors... the instructions are written on the door... how often did happen to you to PUSH a door with a large PULL sticker?
If SLFs do not get the safety PA is not because they (we) are stupid. In some airlines the FA during the Safety Briefing look bored and they just want to get over with it ASAP, other airlines show a movie, others show a cartoon...
Why not standardize such briefing?
On aircraft which has screens, why not display an automated message on the screen in case of loss of pressurization repeating the instructions on how to use the mask and that the aircraft might rapidly descend?
my 2 cents
FrequentSLF
The main idea is that the passengers know what to do. This should be done using a recorded message, when masks drop. On aircraft with video equipment a video showing what to do and expect when masks drop. These should be played when masks drop, with modern technology it is easy. But no one does it yet.