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Spanair accident at Madrid

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Spanair accident at Madrid

Old 8th Sep 2008, 11:43
  #1581 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SW Europe
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another thing I always wanted to mention but... I noticed several times, in almost zero wind weather conditions, that IBERIA pilots use lots of rudder inputs during the take-off run, making the plane zigzagging along the runway, (on 767, A320 and MD83) a quite annoying and worrying technique for passengers. Has this something to do with their pilot training?
Hello again,
Yes, I've noticed too, but only with crosswinds or when making a running T/O.
Maybe you feel it because you were seated in the last rows. If you are seated in the front ones, this sensation is less annoying .

By the way, Iberia hasn't 767's in its fleet, probably you flew in an A 321.

BR
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 12:35
  #1582 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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to hetfield

This is what I was saying. Thanks for backing me up
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 12:40
  #1583 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Some years ago, I witnessed the fallout of a cabin crew 'incident'. One of the flight attendants had enjoyed a passionate weekend in Sydney with a boyfriend. Come tearful time to go, how could she stop? So, on taxi out, she came up with 'I can smell smoke!'. Despite nobody else being able to sniff the meerest whiff she insisted she had been smelling smoke. that was it, 747 flight and hundreds of people delayed a night for technical reasons. She got her extra time with her boyfriend and obviously managed to leave at a later date.

So I am supposed to rely on an unreliable source from the cabin? When I have got a perfectly good flap gauge? And God forbid after this thread, we are going to have fools pelting up to the flight deck and hammering on the door 'flaps are not down!/'I can see ice on the wing!'/'have you seen that storm out west!'/'there's a panel open on the wing!'. No way, I wouldn't have it! It will be utterly ignored.
I do believe that you are insulting qualified professionals, the acts of one do not qualify the category...


PJ2 post says it all... I lost count of how many times the word training he used in the post... what will you be without the proper training?


Regards
AN
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 12:43
  #1584 (permalink)  
 
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So I am supposed to rely on an unreliable source from the cabin? When I have got a perfectly good flap gauge? And God forbid after this thread, we are going to have fools pelting up to the flight deck and hammering on the door 'flaps are not down!/'I can see ice on the wing!'/'have you seen that storm out west!'/'there's a panel open on the wing!'. No way, I wouldn't have it! It will be utterly ignored.
Sadly, CC are many times their own worst enemy with actions as Rainboe has described.
I personally have no tolerance for such nonsence.
If CC have proven reliable in some circumstances, they will be listenened to....otherwise totally and completely ignored.
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 12:47
  #1585 (permalink)  
 
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If CC have proven reliable in some circumstances, they will be listenened to....otherwise totally and completely ignored.
Cracking logic! Can we please stop this nonsense? Its making this thread a laughing stock.
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 12:57
  #1586 (permalink)  
 
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The trouble with making statements such as we always take off with a particular config is that another operator may have completely different ways of operating the same aircraft.
Hetfield mentions that the majority of his take-offs in an A300 are slat only yet in my airline with the same aircraft we usually use flap 15 or sometimes 20.Both airlines have decided to use whichever is the best config for their route structure and flex policy.
Unless you have that airlines takeoff performance charts in front of you how can you ever tell what is the correct config on the day or whether the correct config is set?
If I am going to do a slat only take-off I will brief the cabin crew as the ground roll is usually much longer than normal.We only do these in BAH on hot days/nights.
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 13:04
  #1587 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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yes Ferrobus, you're right, it was not a 767 but 757.
and to another poster: the 'technique' drives me crazy too!
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 13:15
  #1588 (permalink)  
 
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The best answer is this:

PA from pilot: Ladies and gentlemen, our flaps are set for takeoff, the checklist is complete and we ask you to fasten your seat belts and relax. Flight Attendants, prepare for takeoff.
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 13:32
  #1589 (permalink)  
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
 
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Seems to me that there are a couple of suggestions to improve safety

1/ Have no obstructions/gullys on airports

2/ Get cabin crew to check flaps & slats

Now this is a forum and has no regulatory powers or influence, so perhaps the proponents of these ideas would be better spending their time writing to the international regulatory bodies and making their case to them I'm sure the relevent addresses are obtainable from the internet.
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 14:07
  #1590 (permalink)  
 
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The A300 sure as Hell does
So does the F70/100

Rainboe,

Picture one of your children undergoing complicated surgery by an
expert surgeon.
During the operation a nurse sees what she believes is a
fatal mistake about to be made by the surgeon.
In your opinion, what should she do?

XPM
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 14:08
  #1591 (permalink)  
 
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CC Awareness

I seem to remember reading in this thread somewhere that a survivor sitting near/next to, a dead-heading F/O / Captain saying something like "something weird here" during takeoff run.

Makes you think.
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 14:37
  #1592 (permalink)  
 
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Instruments can lie - if the flight deck instruments are telling you one thing and the cabin crew another, it's always worth confirming which is correct. How many times has a CB popped out for no apparent reason, or an alarm turned out to be a faulty sensor?
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 14:51
  #1593 (permalink)  
 
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Picture one of your children undergoing complicated surgery by an
expert surgeon.
During the operation a nurse sees what she believes is a
fatal mistake about to be made by the surgeon.
In your opinion, what should she do?

XPM

If in doubt ask ,how many mistakes have been made when people have assumed something,or been afraid to ask/mention something.
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 15:12
  #1594 (permalink)  
 
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XPMorten 1612

In this case the Nurse is not CA, she is Operating Crew
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 15:29
  #1595 (permalink)  
 
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You donīt want to know how many people die without valid reason while on the operating table, how many people get operated on the wrong part of their body or based on a wrong diagnose.
CRM in the operating room is still in a developing stage.

While I think the professional aviation community is already working on it since 1977....

They (doctors/nurses etc..) in the operating room and anywhere else in the hospital can learn (at least something..) from us...

Sorry, but thats the truth...
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 15:47
  #1596 (permalink)  
 
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Back in the 80s while boarding a Dan-Air 727 (all service vehicles now departed) front section, noticed and open access panel. Um I thought, maybe the F/O missed this on his walk around (before the service people departed?) so I brought this to the attention of cc. Two minutes later F/O leaves the f/d, down steps and has a looksie.

Now, this might have not had any detrimental effect on the safety of the a/c prior to take off, but it must have raised concern on the f/d as to the open access flap/hatch, forward/underside of the port wing. Might be a good idea that the walk around check would be more beneficial when service vehicles and support peoples have departed the vicinity of the a/c. Just a though.

Daz
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 15:59
  #1597 (permalink)  
 
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So I am supposed to rely on an unreliable source from the cabin?
A couple of years ago I was travelling from EDI to CDG on an Air France 146. 25 minutes or so into the flight I drew the cabin crews attention to a stonking oil leak from the port inner. Casual was her walk forwards, instantenous was the sound of the engine shutting down! We diverted to Stanstead!

So, be careful not to generalise. Some of us back there do keep a sensible lookout and to doubt could be somones undoing!

GS
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 16:01
  #1598 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Thanks PJ2

My point is that while it seems that having cabin crew check flap/slats is a good idea to this SLF, one thing I have learnt from PPRuNe is that an improvemnt in one area may cause greater problems in another area. As the goal is to reduce the overall risk, not specific risk of one situation, any change in procedure must be subject to an overall risk evaluation. If it costs little to nothing and does not increase the risk of another problem, then it is hard to argue agaist.

Rainboe's example of the smell smoke is a good example of the cry wolf situation and associated costs, and must be considered in this evaluation. PJ2 makes the point of routine, yet IF this accident is due to flaps/slats, then perhaps part of the problem is that the flight crew's routine was altered. In such cases there is always the chance that the cc's routine would have caught it. In this situation, perhpas having cc do visual checks may be a good idea (assuming again it does not increase other risks).

Again, I am not suggesting either course of action, just trying to understand by frameworking for the discussion.
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 16:12
  #1599 (permalink)  
 
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Might be a good idea that the walk around check would be more beneficial when service vehicles and support peoples have departed the vicinity of the a/c. Just a though.
We have that covered. We carry two ground engineers everywhere, and they do precisely as you have described...a late stage external inspection before the final door is closed.
They also personally close all cargo doors.
We leave nothing to chance in the ad-hoc charter business.
Nothing

We have all experienced personnel at our company, no 'instant experts' allowed.
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Old 8th Sep 2008, 16:40
  #1600 (permalink)  

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"You donīt want to know how many people die without valid reason while on the operating table, "

Very few, based on 35 years of experience in many different surgical disciplines and operating theaters.

"....how many people get operated on the wrong part of their body...."

In tens of thousands of procedures witnessed and preformed professionally I can recall two

"....or based on a wrong diagnose."

Yes it happens, but not very often. Can't always get the diagnosis right. I'm good, but I'm not God.

"CRM in the operating room is still in a developing stage."

That at least is true - but we have pretty good CRM in my theaters.

If you're going to be alarmist at least base it on facts.

Mac

Last edited by Mac the Knife; 9th Sep 2008 at 05:42.
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