Crash landing in KRT
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Via a colleague who has been there since the accident:
ATC told them of a headwind. It was a 15 knot tailwind and the runway was "flooded" after a TS. They landed long due to the tailwind and overran.
Ingested FOD which damaged the engine.
RIP
ATC told them of a headwind. It was a 15 knot tailwind and the runway was "flooded" after a TS. They landed long due to the tailwind and overran.
Ingested FOD which damaged the engine.
RIP
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Bollocks Sudan19
"I Don't know why people keep talking about the airport and not the real issue.
the airport is fine if you know your s**t you can fly there no problems. but it seems like every one wants ATC to do the job for them while they sit there pressing the buttons."
If your theory is correct there would be no need to invest in any airport or airplane infrastructure, just leave all airports and ATC in Third World crap status and hire astronaut pilots that can do the job.
the airport is fine if you know your s**t you can fly there no problems. but it seems like every one wants ATC to do the job for them while they sit there pressing the buttons."
If your theory is correct there would be no need to invest in any airport or airplane infrastructure, just leave all airports and ATC in Third World crap status and hire astronaut pilots that can do the job.
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Good point Croc,
But even in this perfect world you desire, a real driver can't depend on everything working as advertised all the time.
This is why they pay electric jet pilots the big bucks: In the case of this first generation glass A310: to cross-check the Huge Groundspeed readout right in front of both pilot's faces in the corner of the ND display. Turning final, slow to ref 150, if it's GS170 instead of GS130 something's wrong. But you electric jet pilots are too busy putzing around with the FMS to look at any raw data. 
Maybe they trained you to run both sides in map mode without the Pilot flying switching to rose mode to check and see which way the reported quartering head/tail wind should be influencing that last turn against the raw data..... Maybe you electric jet pilots are always on the autopilot so you can't feel that the last turn happened too fast warning you of either bad, bad wind shear coming or of a transposed wind direction from ATC.
Huh? Am I right?
You bet your sweet tail skid I'm right.
A310 Airbus automation was hawked to reduce crew workload, when in fact, it greatly increased it (ref: AW&ST July 1995? IIRC.) Thousands of new Waypoints each month slowed the greenbox down to a crawl, but to have a new faster chip required Multi-million dollar FAA recertification of the whole airplane, which nobody could pay for and which mama bus wanted a kings ransom to get involved with. In seven years I almost never witnessed anybody's head out of the cockpit under ten. "Please Wait" and "Button push ignored" were the two most common messages in the scratch pad. Midairs waiting to happen. Better to just quit dicking with building the tinker-toy map on a non-precision approach, set up the raw data and HAND FLY. (because on every missed approach one guy has to rebuild the damn thing in slow motion, talk to the gov idiot on the ground, configure the flying pilots calls for config changes...set up his instruments and pretend to listen to a briefing... talk about being out of the loop. You're lucky if he even knows which way the ship is headed when he gets done with all that. It goes without saying that in off-track-FMS vetored autoflight the Pilot Not Flying is not doing a manual three percent descent calculation in his head, e.g. five miles track to go?: damn were high!)
Oh, sacrilege you cry! Hand Fly? That's Cowboy stuff! Shame! Shame! That's so John Wayne! We all know we're supposed to sit up straight, couple it up and pretend to be scanning out the windshield for traffic! Our sacred automated duty! (when in reality: you're watching the FMS typing like a hawk out of the corner of your eye because you know that dumb new sonofabiiitch is going to dork it up bigtime!)
Barring any additional revelations forthcoming out of the upcoming finger-pointing investigation, this accident and many others like it, must be laid where it belongs, not on ATC or some defered items or phantom cell pone interference, but at the door of
management and the door of government. This model of early glass was an experiment in the 1970's where the automation was designed around the computer not the pilot. As long as you understand that, and click down to a lower level of automation at the first sign of overload, you're fine. But the coupled A310 is not for kids; as many tail-slide incidents and accidents attest. It can get away from you rather quickly.
Now who's going to tell em? Whose going to tell management and government that they (the authorities) are wrong and that pilots should manually hand-fly every opportunity they have? (how about one of you Sudan pilots?; you'll either be fired or promoted to chief pilot!)
Some things in Aviation never change.
Thanks for your indulgence, my fellow aviators, in reading my favorite WARSTORY.
pac - Out
.
.
But even in this perfect world you desire, a real driver can't depend on everything working as advertised all the time.
This is why they pay electric jet pilots the big bucks: In the case of this first generation glass A310: to cross-check the Huge Groundspeed readout right in front of both pilot's faces in the corner of the ND display. Turning final, slow to ref 150, if it's GS170 instead of GS130 something's wrong. But you electric jet pilots are too busy putzing around with the FMS to look at any raw data. Maybe they trained you to run both sides in map mode without the Pilot flying switching to rose mode to check and see which way the reported quartering head/tail wind should be influencing that last turn against the raw data..... Maybe you electric jet pilots are always on the autopilot so you can't feel that the last turn happened too fast warning you of either bad, bad wind shear coming or of a transposed wind direction from ATC. Huh? Am I right?
You bet your sweet tail skid I'm right.
A310 Airbus automation was hawked to reduce crew workload, when in fact, it greatly increased it (ref: AW&ST July 1995? IIRC.) Thousands of new Waypoints each month slowed the greenbox down to a crawl, but to have a new faster chip required Multi-million dollar FAA recertification of the whole airplane, which nobody could pay for and which mama bus wanted a kings ransom to get involved with. In seven years I almost never witnessed anybody's head out of the cockpit under ten. "Please Wait" and "Button push ignored" were the two most common messages in the scratch pad. Midairs waiting to happen. Better to just quit dicking with building the tinker-toy map on a non-precision approach, set up the raw data and HAND FLY. (because on every missed approach one guy has to rebuild the damn thing in slow motion, talk to the gov idiot on the ground, configure the flying pilots calls for config changes...set up his instruments and pretend to listen to a briefing... talk about being out of the loop. You're lucky if he even knows which way the ship is headed when he gets done with all that. It goes without saying that in off-track-FMS vetored autoflight the Pilot Not Flying is not doing a manual three percent descent calculation in his head, e.g. five miles track to go?: damn were high!)
Oh, sacrilege you cry! Hand Fly? That's Cowboy stuff! Shame! Shame! That's so John Wayne! We all know we're supposed to sit up straight, couple it up and pretend to be scanning out the windshield for traffic! Our sacred automated duty! (when in reality: you're watching the FMS typing like a hawk out of the corner of your eye because you know that dumb new sonofabiiitch is going to dork it up bigtime!)
Barring any additional revelations forthcoming out of the upcoming finger-pointing investigation, this accident and many others like it, must be laid where it belongs, not on ATC or some defered items or phantom cell pone interference, but at the door of
management and the door of government. This model of early glass was an experiment in the 1970's where the automation was designed around the computer not the pilot. As long as you understand that, and click down to a lower level of automation at the first sign of overload, you're fine. But the coupled A310 is not for kids; as many tail-slide incidents and accidents attest. It can get away from you rather quickly.Now who's going to tell em? Whose going to tell management and government that they (the authorities) are wrong and that pilots should manually hand-fly every opportunity they have? (how about one of you Sudan pilots?; you'll either be fired or promoted to chief pilot!)
Some things in Aviation never change.
Thanks for your indulgence, my fellow aviators, in reading my favorite WARSTORY.
pac - Out
.
.
Last edited by pacplyer; 17th Jun 2008 at 07:00.
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Croc
you should be able to land your plane any where in the world as long as there is a runway.
investing in airports is good. it makes our job easy.
but if its a third world country and they don't have the money to provide everything you need. it shouldn't stop you from doing your job.
you should be able to land your plane any where in the world as long as there is a runway.
investing in airports is good. it makes our job easy.
but if its a third world country and they don't have the money to provide everything you need. it shouldn't stop you from doing your job.
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Pacplyer
Excellent post, you are absolutley right, that is exactly what is happening in the Airbus cockpits. And a combination of an inexperienced Captain and new cadet FO and a Third World airport and horrific WX we can see the results.
I loved your war stories, you were lucky to get away just with stained underwear mate
And to you Sudan. In KRT they have the equipment and the money. But these idiots have the ILS on test since years.
I loved your war stories, you were lucky to get away just with stained underwear mate
And to you Sudan. In KRT they have the equipment and the money. But these idiots have the ILS on test since years.
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gotta love it,
Just over ran the runway, hit a pole and didn't notice.
The burnt out wreckage is 200m off the threshold in the sand, the tail was sitting on a trailer.
Hand flying/old school/new school. I'd far rather take the next generation out anyday.
'F**king superior airmanship on my behalf'
Just over ran the runway, hit a pole and didn't notice.
The burnt out wreckage is 200m off the threshold in the sand, the tail was sitting on a trailer.
Hand flying/old school/new school. I'd far rather take the next generation out anyday.
'F**king superior airmanship on my behalf'
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you should be able to land your plane any where in the world as long as there is a runway.
investing in airports is good. it makes our job easy.
but if its a third world country and they don't have the money to provide everything you need. it shouldn't stop you from doing your job
investing in airports is good. it makes our job easy.
but if its a third world country and they don't have the money to provide everything you need. it shouldn't stop you from doing your job
It would appear that the rest are button pushers who never learned how to operate a heavy jet...manually.
I would suggest these folks refrain from operating to Africa...leave it to the professionals.
I'll take a lot of convincing that it is safer to hand fly a non-ILS approach in a big jet.
I don't mean build the fanciest looking map, but simply use (on B744) the rwy c/line display to aid your tracking if there in no ILS in the data base. Then use the A/P in HDG SEL and V/S modes. Now you have another "pilot" you can rely on flying the A/C while you monitor and think. You may be lucky and have a suitably coded approach in the data base to give you LNav and VNav. Either way, A/P is the safe way.
I don't mean build the fanciest looking map, but simply use (on B744) the rwy c/line display to aid your tracking if there in no ILS in the data base. Then use the A/P in HDG SEL and V/S modes. Now you have another "pilot" you can rely on flying the A/C while you monitor and think. You may be lucky and have a suitably coded approach in the data base to give you LNav and VNav. Either way, A/P is the safe way.
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Hi Mustafagander,
Agree with your FMS technique. Haven't flown the -400, jumpseat only. But it looks like your Honeywell box is a lot faster responding than the early airbus units. Flew the 741 and 742 for four years without FMS and we did some of both on NPA's: hand fly and A/P in hdg sel and v/s. Hand flown NPA's were frightening if you didn't do them very often
Later with the bus, we were based at a field were an iffy Vor was all we had. Sometimes the co-located ADF was the only thing working. We became fairly good at these and all noticed that our sim NPA's had become easy. IMHO, the 747 automation had a more logical interface, was more predictable and caused a lower monitoring workload when coupled than the A300 series or even DC-10. "What's it doing now?" was a common phrase you heard in an airbus jumpseat with both guy's heads down and traffic zipping by the windscreen.
I'm not arguing a blanket statement for all models and situations that it's safer to hand fly a Non Prec apprch as opposed to a coupled monitered one. It's probably not. I am arguing however, that the proficiency benefit is of sufficient value that voluntary hand flying on a regular basis should be permitted as policy (at the discretion of the PIC of course.) In allowing some white knuckle driving, you could virtually wipe out these type of accidents that result most likely from over-reliance on automation. We lost two airframes due to guys being essentially afraid/reluctant to disconnect and get control early and then not going around when they found themselves high and fast (similar overrun accidents to the above.)
I question the tyranny of strict standardization where we must pretend that every pilot is identical in skill, proficiency and capability. Some come back from vacation and need to hand fly. Some just aren't very good pilots and need to stay practiced. A very few are natural flyers who can ride around on A/P for years pushing buttons and when it quits are able to hand fly 2 Eng Out NP approach like nothing happened. Most of us though, need the currency and gain nothing by fighting the boredom of supervising Otto.
I am also inclined to believe that hunching over staring at a slow, thirty year old FMS unit in the terminal area is unsafe. There's just gotta be a better way.
Cheers
Agree with your FMS technique. Haven't flown the -400, jumpseat only. But it looks like your Honeywell box is a lot faster responding than the early airbus units. Flew the 741 and 742 for four years without FMS and we did some of both on NPA's: hand fly and A/P in hdg sel and v/s. Hand flown NPA's were frightening if you didn't do them very often
Later with the bus, we were based at a field were an iffy Vor was all we had. Sometimes the co-located ADF was the only thing working. We became fairly good at these and all noticed that our sim NPA's had become easy. IMHO, the 747 automation had a more logical interface, was more predictable and caused a lower monitoring workload when coupled than the A300 series or even DC-10. "What's it doing now?" was a common phrase you heard in an airbus jumpseat with both guy's heads down and traffic zipping by the windscreen. I'm not arguing a blanket statement for all models and situations that it's safer to hand fly a Non Prec apprch as opposed to a coupled monitered one. It's probably not. I am arguing however, that the proficiency benefit is of sufficient value that voluntary hand flying on a regular basis should be permitted as policy (at the discretion of the PIC of course.) In allowing some white knuckle driving, you could virtually wipe out these type of accidents that result most likely from over-reliance on automation. We lost two airframes due to guys being essentially afraid/reluctant to disconnect and get control early and then not going around when they found themselves high and fast (similar overrun accidents to the above.)
I question the tyranny of strict standardization where we must pretend that every pilot is identical in skill, proficiency and capability. Some come back from vacation and need to hand fly. Some just aren't very good pilots and need to stay practiced. A very few are natural flyers who can ride around on A/P for years pushing buttons and when it quits are able to hand fly 2 Eng Out NP approach like nothing happened. Most of us though, need the currency and gain nothing by fighting the boredom of supervising Otto.
I am also inclined to believe that hunching over staring at a slow, thirty year old FMS unit in the terminal area is unsafe. There's just gotta be a better way.
Cheers
Pacplyer,
It's called "airmanship".
The PIC is meant to determine the safest way to execute an approach.
I venture to say that a pilot who chooses not to hand fly a non-ILS approach when conditions are perfect is a bit of a dope. One of these days you will have to do it for real when the chips are down.
I apologise to all the "naturals" reading this.
I have to work at it, I'm not a gifted aviator. 
It's called "airmanship".
The PIC is meant to determine the safest way to execute an approach.
I venture to say that a pilot who chooses not to hand fly a non-ILS approach when conditions are perfect is a bit of a dope. One of these days you will have to do it for real when the chips are down.
I apologise to all the "naturals" reading this.
I have to work at it, I'm not a gifted aviator.
"I am also inclined to believe that hunching over staring at a slow, thirty year old FMS unit in the terminal area is unsafe. There's just gotta be a better way."
If you think the old Honeywell is bad try a Smiths fms of similar vintage!It makes the Honeywell look like a super computer.
If you think the old Honeywell is bad try a Smiths fms of similar vintage!It makes the Honeywell look like a super computer.
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as a pilot you should always be ready for the unexpected (as we all know).
manually flying your bird is good every once in a while. that way you know your always at the top of your game. not saying that you will be perfect (because no one is) but if something goes wrong you will be ready to react confidently.
i know some pilots that can't even maintain straight and level flight (basic ppl stuff. any 17 year old with 15 hours can do that) and thats one of the consequences of automation.
one day everything could fail on you. and if you can't fly manually,navigate and do the rest of the duties all together at the same time. we know what will happen.
flying in Khartoum could be really nice at times because you get to do lots of things that you can't do anywhere else. especially when the weather is right.
if you come there in April/may you would love it.
Happy flying!!!!
manually flying your bird is good every once in a while. that way you know your always at the top of your game. not saying that you will be perfect (because no one is) but if something goes wrong you will be ready to react confidently.
i know some pilots that can't even maintain straight and level flight (basic ppl stuff. any 17 year old with 15 hours can do that) and thats one of the consequences of automation.
one day everything could fail on you. and if you can't fly manually,navigate and do the rest of the duties all together at the same time. we know what will happen.
flying in Khartoum could be really nice at times because you get to do lots of things that you can't do anywhere else. especially when the weather is right.
if you come there in April/may you would love it.
Happy flying!!!!
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well I am astonished but for the first time I agree with 411a. I am very experienced in these regions and HSSS is not much different to any African airport although there have been improvements.
You do need to plan ahead and have a plan B if ATC make mistakes. They did to us a couple of nights ago after re opening.
Radar was obviously not working as they were constantly asking for position and level. Gave us direct to VOR then after we kept saying approaching etc, now overhead, now passed gave us the VOR approach by saying report out bound. Luckily it was a clear night so we had to improvise using the non-working? ILS for assistance and our plan B which was to know exactly where we are at all times and what we are going to do if they mess up.
However, this is not unusual and you are really only using ATC as a guide in this country, it is often better to tell them what you are going to do. ( if you know)
We were only doing a fuel stop, and as usual of course they managed to lose our outbound plan!!
You do need to plan ahead and have a plan B if ATC make mistakes. They did to us a couple of nights ago after re opening.
Radar was obviously not working as they were constantly asking for position and level. Gave us direct to VOR then after we kept saying approaching etc, now overhead, now passed gave us the VOR approach by saying report out bound. Luckily it was a clear night so we had to improvise using the non-working? ILS for assistance and our plan B which was to know exactly where we are at all times and what we are going to do if they mess up.
However, this is not unusual and you are really only using ATC as a guide in this country, it is often better to tell them what you are going to do. ( if you know)
We were only doing a fuel stop, and as usual of course they managed to lose our outbound plan!!
Watching videos like this it is not difficult to see why aircraft operated by third-rate airlines like this often end up in a heap beyond the end of the runway.
YouTube - Mahan Air Airbus A300 Landing At Dubai - Cockpit view
Note the 23 second delay between crossing the threshold and touchdown!
Absolutely appalling! (regardless of runway length available)
YouTube - Mahan Air Airbus A300 Landing At Dubai - Cockpit view
Note the 23 second delay between crossing the threshold and touchdown!
Absolutely appalling! (regardless of runway length available)
Doors to Automatic
Well of course your comments enticed me to watch the video.
Why do you suppose that the video was created and posted?
Was it to entertain us with how real pilots do it, or was it to seek comments like "How's my Flying"?
I just can't see how one could judge the caliber of third world airlines by a non-descript video posted on U-tub
Watching videos like this it is not difficult to see why aircraft operated by third-rate airlines like this often end up in a heap beyond the end of the runway.
YouTube - Mahan Air Airbus A300 Landing At Dubai - Cockpit view
Note the 23 second delay between crossing the threshold and touchdown!
Absolutely appalling! (regardless of runway length available)
YouTube - Mahan Air Airbus A300 Landing At Dubai - Cockpit view
Note the 23 second delay between crossing the threshold and touchdown!
Absolutely appalling! (regardless of runway length available)
Why do you suppose that the video was created and posted?
Was it to entertain us with how real pilots do it, or was it to seek comments like "How's my Flying"?
I just can't see how one could judge the caliber of third world airlines by a non-descript video posted on U-tub
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DoorsAuto
I think I'm somewhat puzzled also. I've read your posts for some time and so I linked the YT to take a look. I had expectations of seeing some gross mishandling or bust of ATC or other. Outside of noticing an "S" turn with a max roll of 3-5 degrees (?) at 2 miles, I'm still wondering. Did you miss link? He stopped past the High Speed but short of the red ones and Freq. switch and subsequent radio chatter was not informative of anything unusual. Considering how wobbly the cam was throughout, at T/D it may well have been a greaser.
Airfoil
Airfoil
My point was the ridiculously long flare and late touchdown occuring 5000ft+ past the threshold.
Granted the runway at DXB is long but this is sloppy airmanship. That was my point.
Granted the runway at DXB is long but this is sloppy airmanship. That was my point.
well I could,nt see anything wrong with it either !!!! the 500 ft rad alt call, the 200 ft and then the subsequent 30 ft, 20 ft and 10 ft all appeared to be at the correct times..... if it continued shouting "10" or " 5" then he's floating down past the touchdown markers , but there wasnt so he didnt 
