Radiotelephony in shambles in Europe?
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Started reading this hoping to see some positive comments from crew about the EHS (enhanced mode S) we bust a gut and a piggy bank to install on our fleet last year. Are any ground stations actually capable of receiving the DAPS (downlink aircraft parameters). As a minimum EHS capable aircraft transponders should encode the following for display on a controllers screen as required by him/her.
Selected Altitude
Roll Angle
Track Angle Rate (or True Airspeed if Track Angle Rate is not available)
True Track Angle
Ground Speed
Magnetic Heading
Indicated Airspeed/Mach No.
Vertical Rate (Barometric rate of climb/descend or baro-inertial)
One of the aims of all this is to reduce RT congestion though it has many other benefits and massive scope for further development. I lost interest once we finished the mod programme but there is some basic info here, skip the first few pages
http://www.eurocontrol.int/enprm/gal...y_material.pdf
Selected Altitude
Roll Angle
Track Angle Rate (or True Airspeed if Track Angle Rate is not available)
True Track Angle
Ground Speed
Magnetic Heading
Indicated Airspeed/Mach No.
Vertical Rate (Barometric rate of climb/descend or baro-inertial)
One of the aims of all this is to reduce RT congestion though it has many other benefits and massive scope for further development. I lost interest once we finished the mod programme but there is some basic info here, skip the first few pages
http://www.eurocontrol.int/enprm/gal...y_material.pdf
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Don't tar everyone with the same brush
ZbV
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BeeBopp
Hi
About 9 months ago leaving from LGW on a 767 I got controller saying something that I found funny. The FO was flying and me being the PM. London comes and says confirm the cleared level 170 not 168. I had read back FL170 just about 10 sec back. It annoyed me but I looked at MCP ALT SEL window and voila, I had 16800 set in it. It took me some digging around to find out about the system but it seems to work atleast in UK. Don't know about the rest of Europe.
About 9 months ago leaving from LGW on a 767 I got controller saying something that I found funny. The FO was flying and me being the PM. London comes and says confirm the cleared level 170 not 168. I had read back FL170 just about 10 sec back. It annoyed me but I looked at MCP ALT SEL window and voila, I had 16800 set in it. It took me some digging around to find out about the system but it seems to work atleast in UK. Don't know about the rest of Europe.
Cunning Artificer
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To meet mandated deadlines, we back-office engineers arranged EHS modifications to all your airliners, we've even put VDL transceivers into VHF3 channels wherever we can to accomodate ACARS downlink etc. (Unfortunately, not every operator specifies triple VHF Comms when they define their fleet configuration.) Until the complementary ground systems and operational procedures to use the technology are put in place, the airwaves will remain congested. Meanwhile, for many years now, at ground level we've been able to cross national boundaries as though they weren't there. Why must the sovereignty of national airspace be guarded so jealously? The time for ditching so many superfluous ATC handovers are long overdue. We need a single Europe-wide ATC system and we need it yesterday.
JJFlyer's interesting last comment shows that pilots may in any case, be un-aware of what data their aircraft already transmit in the background. As an industry, despite technology already being in place, are we not simply clinging on to outdated procedures?
JJFlyer's interesting last comment shows that pilots may in any case, be un-aware of what data their aircraft already transmit in the background. As an industry, despite technology already being in place, are we not simply clinging on to outdated procedures?
Last edited by Blacksheep; 30th May 2008 at 07:01.
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time for ditching so many superfluous ATC handovers are long overdue. We need a single Europe-wide ATC system and we need it yesterday.
or even better than that, the for ever in utopia FREE FLIGHT!
Back to reality, I'm afraid we are not gonna see huge improvements in the way we communicate...
Causes:
- political interest
- national pride
- fear of redundancies
- loosing the "human touch"
Just looking at the way Europe has developed, and we see the reflections of bureaucracy as applied to the aviation world.
What a pity, such a waste of human and monetary resources...
ATC (let's remote control those guys...) vs Pilots (don't need those, we have TCAS...), interesting conflict in sight
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ATC (let's remote control those guys...)
Rather than blather on VHF, ATC selects the aircraft, types in next requested FL, heading, speed, etc. and datalinks it to the aircraft.
Appears as "bugs" on the aircraft displays.
If the aircraft doesn't respond/react, it's a red blip on the screen.
As soon as it does (climb, heading change, new speed selected) the blip goes orange. Once the aircraft matches the new request, the blip goes green.
I would think even the pilots would like it, especially now that they DO have TCAS.
"Ping"....
Current FL displayed say "FL280"
Just below it says "ATC > FL240" in magenta.
You set an ALT ACQ for FL240.
Once the a/c is set up for the descent, your a/c display goes to "ATC > FL240" in yellow (as does the ATC blip), and the legend disappears once you're at FL240.
Don't shoot me down immediately. I know the "interface" doesn't exist yet, and my description is over-simplistic.
But using simple visual clues and messages would seem to be a far more reliable way to communicate data than the current RT mishmash, and get rid of much of the language problems as well.
CJ
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my two cents - a lot of unnecessary talk
I am surprised nobody has mentioned this so far but there is a huge amount of unnecessary verbiage congesting the frequencies. It usually starts with "good morning" or "good evening". Listen guys and girls, if you are coming onto a busy frequency or into FRA or AMS and they are really busy, you don't need that greeting.
If you are on a busy frequency in radar contact and turned over to a new controller, you don't need to name the position or fix you are over - they already know.
You don't need to add the word "maintaining" after you give your flight level.
When transferring to a new controller the call-up can be as simple as this, "Radar, GlobaL Air 245, flight level three five zero." Instead of, "Good morning Radar, this is Global 245 air crossing enema intersection flight level 350 maintaining - squawking 1234."
Sheesh - You just don't need all that and it is using up the frequency.
Just my two cents. I don't mind the "good morning" stuff if the frequency is quiet but really guys, not necessary in a busy environment.
Oh and by the way, a pet peeve of mine are people who transmit instantly when they switch to a new frequency. Please wait more than a micro second! India is the worst for this, everybody stepping on everybody else.
If you are on a busy frequency in radar contact and turned over to a new controller, you don't need to name the position or fix you are over - they already know.
You don't need to add the word "maintaining" after you give your flight level.
When transferring to a new controller the call-up can be as simple as this, "Radar, GlobaL Air 245, flight level three five zero." Instead of, "Good morning Radar, this is Global 245 air crossing enema intersection flight level 350 maintaining - squawking 1234."
Sheesh - You just don't need all that and it is using up the frequency.
Just my two cents. I don't mind the "good morning" stuff if the frequency is quiet but really guys, not necessary in a busy environment.
Oh and by the way, a pet peeve of mine are people who transmit instantly when they switch to a new frequency. Please wait more than a micro second! India is the worst for this, everybody stepping on everybody else.
Last edited by Flying Guy; 31st May 2008 at 03:26. Reason: minor text changes
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Flying Guy,
While I agree overall, I'm not so sure about the "good morning".
I find I always need a fraction of a second - let's say the first two words or so - to "tune in" to a new voice, be it on R/T or even simply on the telephone, and the meaning of those first two words usually gets lost. If that's "good morning" it doesn't matter. If it's a callsign, it's more serious.
Maybe it's only me?
While I agree overall, I'm not so sure about the "good morning".
I find I always need a fraction of a second - let's say the first two words or so - to "tune in" to a new voice, be it on R/T or even simply on the telephone, and the meaning of those first two words usually gets lost. If that's "good morning" it doesn't matter. If it's a callsign, it's more serious.
Maybe it's only me?
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121.5
joehunt
"One day someone will need to get a word in on that freq, real quick. At the moment they would be lucky to get a word in edge ways."
The person that maybe trying to get a word in may be the pilot of a military interceptor, trying to give someone a final warning before he proceeds to blow the "uncontactable" aircraft out of the sky.
"Uncontactable" for the reasons being dicussed in previous posts on this thread.
"One day someone will need to get a word in on that freq, real quick. At the moment they would be lucky to get a word in edge ways."
The person that maybe trying to get a word in may be the pilot of a military interceptor, trying to give someone a final warning before he proceeds to blow the "uncontactable" aircraft out of the sky.
"Uncontactable" for the reasons being dicussed in previous posts on this thread.
Last edited by justlooking_tks; 1st Jun 2008 at 03:53.
Paxing All Over The World
Non-pilot speaking.
In the UK, when the road side repair services (AA and RAC) found their voice channels overloaded, they moved to a data system that increased the throughput of information by a remarkable amount and improved the entire operation. Further, it allowed an electronic record of all exchanges to be made that can benefit both parties in a dispute.
However ... if you were receiving all that data onto the display screens, rather than into your ears - would that mean spending more time head down, rather than head up observing?
Perhaps the compromise is that - all the data is transmitted to the system and then it reads it aloud to you. Synthetic voice systems are very sophisticated now and, if you did not hear it clearly, you could check the screen or have the system read it to you again and ATC are not involved.
I'm sure that this kind of system has already been promoted but we will not get rid of euro control until we have had more than one major prang that could be ascribed to euro control.
As always, the only things that change minds are money and death. Such a change would save money but lose political influence and so we have to wait for the death bit.
In the UK, when the road side repair services (AA and RAC) found their voice channels overloaded, they moved to a data system that increased the throughput of information by a remarkable amount and improved the entire operation. Further, it allowed an electronic record of all exchanges to be made that can benefit both parties in a dispute.
However ... if you were receiving all that data onto the display screens, rather than into your ears - would that mean spending more time head down, rather than head up observing?
Perhaps the compromise is that - all the data is transmitted to the system and then it reads it aloud to you. Synthetic voice systems are very sophisticated now and, if you did not hear it clearly, you could check the screen or have the system read it to you again and ATC are not involved.
I'm sure that this kind of system has already been promoted but we will not get rid of euro control until we have had more than one major prang that could be ascribed to euro control.
As always, the only things that change minds are money and death. Such a change would save money but lose political influence and so we have to wait for the death bit.
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Data is the way ahead
As Pax Boy, said. The data transfer technology is already here, and must be used.
Pax Boy: it is already in use, on transatlantics, etc. Not seen you in LUT exec lounge recently, as I am now based in Sandy Bottom.
Take care
glf
Pax Boy: it is already in use, on transatlantics, etc. Not seen you in LUT exec lounge recently, as I am now based in Sandy Bottom.
Take care
glf
Paxing All Over The World
Yes the technology has been around for more than a decade and so has now been through several stages and well road tested.
The advantage for the roadside assist companies is that they are operating in only one country . . . It is the Eurocontrol that has to change and become a TRUE European control.
However, since some states are still clinging to the wreckage of their airlines (Italy) and many others have misplaced misunderstanding of Europe (UK), we are going to have to wait for more consolidation of carriers.
Had AF/KLM picked up AZ then it would have been a starting point. All of this will happen, it's only a question of when.
(Thanks Glf, my work pattern has changed now and I only use LTN for domestic, such as IOM this Friday)
The advantage for the roadside assist companies is that they are operating in only one country . . . It is the Eurocontrol that has to change and become a TRUE European control.
However, since some states are still clinging to the wreckage of their airlines (Italy) and many others have misplaced misunderstanding of Europe (UK), we are going to have to wait for more consolidation of carriers.
Had AF/KLM picked up AZ then it would have been a starting point. All of this will happen, it's only a question of when.
(Thanks Glf, my work pattern has changed now and I only use LTN for domestic, such as IOM this Friday)
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I saw this kind of technology used in a film and it worked there. The film was "Dr Strangelove" and the equipment was called CRM114. I can't see any pitfalls at all. Well as long as no one is firing missiles at your B-52 that is.
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Human factor
Non professional barging in here . . .
The seemingly redundant words at the beginning of a radio transmission ("Good morning", "Hello, director" and so on) are very important in one respect: it's well understood that the human ear takes a syllable or two of speech to attune or synchronize to a particular voice. It is sensible not to impart vital information in the first one or two words of a message.
After all, that's why you wouldn't say "Pan" or "Mayday" only once -- if you could help it
The seemingly redundant words at the beginning of a radio transmission ("Good morning", "Hello, director" and so on) are very important in one respect: it's well understood that the human ear takes a syllable or two of speech to attune or synchronize to a particular voice. It is sensible not to impart vital information in the first one or two words of a message.
After all, that's why you wouldn't say "Pan" or "Mayday" only once -- if you could help it
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A small problem, easily got around if one pretends that one is a pilot!!
Cause of problem? Often ATC verbosity ie.........
"ABC 123 ready to start"
"ABC123 confirm FULLY READY?"
(sigh) "ABC 123 confirm FULLY READY!!!!"
or hows about
"ABC 123 maintain flight level 330 on reaching"
What the **** else would we do?
Cause of problem? Often ATC verbosity ie.........
"ABC 123 ready to start"
"ABC123 confirm FULLY READY?"
(sigh) "ABC 123 confirm FULLY READY!!!!"
or hows about
"ABC 123 maintain flight level 330 on reaching"
What the **** else would we do?
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I love the French:
pilot: Reims good morning, XYZ123, FL390 to RESMI
French ATC: Good morning XYZ123, radar contact, maintain FL390 to RESMI
Duh!
(or is there some rule that I do not know about?
)
pilot: Reims good morning, XYZ123, FL390 to RESMI
French ATC: Good morning XYZ123, radar contact, maintain FL390 to RESMI
Duh!
(or is there some rule that I do not know about?
)
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As one who uses datalink every working day I can say that it is a useful system but no way can it be relied upon or used as some previous posters have suggested.
Sometimes messages aren't received other times they don't get there in time. The system allows up to 2 minutes before it times out. This is ok over the atlantic or other great expanses of airspace where there is nothing in the way, but in central Europe 2 minutes is a very long time. Especially when the pilot has to read, interpret and react! Using the old voice communication method takes seconds - I don't think many pilots would be happy stuck at Fl250 requesting Fl390 because we couldn't guarantee they would get the message in time
Datalink is perfect for frequency and squawk changes and issuing direct routes but for separation it is not good enough
I heard a good analogy - Datalink is like text messaging, fine for arranging to meet your mates down the pub later on (send an SMS) But if you needed an ambulance you would make a phone call ( voice communication) not a text
Sometimes messages aren't received other times they don't get there in time. The system allows up to 2 minutes before it times out. This is ok over the atlantic or other great expanses of airspace where there is nothing in the way, but in central Europe 2 minutes is a very long time. Especially when the pilot has to read, interpret and react! Using the old voice communication method takes seconds - I don't think many pilots would be happy stuck at Fl250 requesting Fl390 because we couldn't guarantee they would get the message in time
Datalink is perfect for frequency and squawk changes and issuing direct routes but for separation it is not good enoughI heard a good analogy - Datalink is like text messaging, fine for arranging to meet your mates down the pub later on (send an SMS) But if you needed an ambulance you would make a phone call ( voice communication) not a text