BALPA withdraw from Open Skies Court Case

[bluepilot]

This is not a good situation at all for BALPA, I am not a fan of Jim MacAuslan either, his support when we needed it at KLCuk was poor at the best, in fact he considered us a high cost centre and suggested that we should be "moved" to the VNV, at that time the VNV were very much the enemy and part of our fight with KLM mainline, he seemed to be running BALPA more as a business than a union. As for his huge gaff over BA38 thats another subject.

A way foward here is that BALPA has already been recognised by Openskies. Once Openeskies is up and running perhaps the BA CC and Openskies CC can work together to ensure a mutually secure future for all. I really hope that the lessons of the past re- BACON etc can be learned and that by working TOGETHER the two company councils can make sure one is not used against the other by BA management.

[M.Mouse]

Saint Peter

You claim BALPA has been misused. You admit to not being a BALPA member. Assuming you are a pilot in an airline open to BALPA membership then, apart from being a freeloader, you really have little knowledge of what BALPA was up to. As Carnage points out if OpenLies was/is a threat what was BALPA supposed to do. The fact that recent law changed the whole battleground so massively in favour of the employer meant BALPA had to withdraw from what was at the start a strong case.

The support for the BACC from within BALPA was solid.

I would suggest that should BA pilots form a separate union then BALPA's coffers would look very interesting indeed. However, I fail to see how BALPA would be strengthened by losing just under half its current membership.

BOAC

What I fail to understand is that if Dan Air was so profitable why nobody saw fit to make a killing and keep it in business. Much like British Caledonian and many other airlines they were profitable but ignorant bankers couldn't see it.

bluepilot

Forgive me but if OpenLies is a success and new aircraft originally destined for BA mainline are diverted to OpenLies then please tell me how an OS Company Council and the BA Company Council can end up anything other than at loggerheads? Precisely why the BACC wished for a common pilot workforce.

Spiderman

The IFALPA ban is in the process of being lifted.

Right lets have some more bitter and twisted rants against all that is BA. It does create such a wonderful image for the non-pilot readers of this site.

[bluepilot]

M Mouse, first I am not having a bitter rant against BA or its pilots, quite the opposite in fact and I take exception that you imply that I am.

Second, the fact is that Openskies IS going to happen, FACT, this is why it so so important that BALPA and the two CCs work together. I appreciate that this has not worked in the past but it must in the future. If as you say the two CC are at "loggerheads" then you are going to play right into the managements hands. The choice is yours.

[Carnage Matey!]

That's going to be a difficult one. What do you think will happen when BA management tell Open Skies they can have a new originating in the UK in violation of Mainlines Scope clause? Do you think they'll hold back?

[M.Mouse]

bluepilot, my apologies, I was not implying your post or any other that made valid points devoid of bitterness and vitriol was a rant against BA. I was referring to the posts where facts were short and obvious hatred of all things BA distort the poster's thinking.

The point I was making to you was that the interests of OpenLies pilots and BA pilots will inevitably be mutually incompatible if BA's long term plan comes to fruition. Not so had BALPA succeeded in its quest for a common pilot workforce.

[StudentInDebt]

Would I be correct in thinking that if BA win that one it would set a precedent in UK law meaning no Union can ever again afford to threaten an airline with Industrial Action?

My layman's understanding is that the precedent has already been set (ITWF vs Viking) it applies only if the industrial action they are taking is intended to restrict the company's ability to operate within other EU member states through subsidiary companies and the industrial action taken is disproportionate to the goal being sought.

This is just my understanding of the implications, I don't hold any qualifications in the field of law so I could have written complete b*****ks. From what I've read the UK Appeals Court still has to make a final judgement on Viking by applying the ECJ judgement to UK law.

[bluepilot]

Why are you assuming that the pilots in openskies are the enemy? Mainline has a scope clause, BALPA is the COMMON union and this is why they must work together. By taking this attitude now Carnage Matey you will alienate the Openskies pilots.

Of course the management are going to try and play one against the other, thats obvious, that is why BALPA must be one step ahead on this.

Incidentally, should BA attempt to break sched K (scope) then you WILL have the right to strike over broken agreements.

[Carnage Matey!]

I agree with your points blue, it's simply that in my experience the partner on the inferior terms invariably grabs at any opportunity for advancement. Whilst we'd all love harmonious cooperation, the brutal reality is that the BACC will have to defend their Scope agreement and the OSCC are going to have a tough time justifying any alliance with them to their own members, many of whom will have no allegiance to BA pilots or the UK in general. BALPA will be stuck with a conflict of interest and we're going to have the BACX scenario all over again.

[BOAC]

Danger Thread drift alert!

Originally Posted by M Mouse

What I fail to understand is that if Dan Air was so profitable why nobody saw fit to make a killing and keep it in business. Much like British Caledonian and many other airlines they were profitable but ignorant bankers couldn't see it.

Aha! Mention 'bankers' and DanAir and that is the 'another story', but the point was how profitable operations can be destroyed by the huge BA overheads and management. In any case, as I indicated, "Dan Air was so profitable" was not the case.

Anyway, enough of history. My commiserations to ALL pilots, BA and other, on this 'result'. Glad I'm out of it soon. A bad day.

[Captain Jumbo]

Some might wonder about the quality of the advice BALPA received that persuaded them to seek the court option. I had always figured that in legal terms, it is best to be pretty sure of the answer before asking the question - or, as happened here, life can become very expensive. From the very beginning some might argue that BALPA and BACC did not consider the potential consequences properly. Judging from the anti OS vitriol posted on here by BA personnel, if those feelings were replicated by BACC and their puppets within BALPA, it may seem that insufficient thought was given to the enterprise. I would guess that the feeling was that seeing as how BA could not really afford a pilot strike, they would have to cave to the threat, and BACC would once again have muscled their way to their desired end.
In fact, what has happened is the strengthening of the employer side of the negotiating table at the worst time possible. Really well done chaps, excellent result!!!!!!!

It's also worthwhile reading BOAC's post carefully. The merest mention of DAN AIR, just as with BACX / BACON etc brings out all the apologists for unacceptable behaviour, who delight in rewriting the past. It won't change anything, but it does underscore and focus the viewpoints of the BA pilot community who refuse to work with their own management, but who also seem to have consistently historically refused to stand up for companies bought/taken over by their companies. Too much hypocrisy for me.

With regard to unions generally, this debacle has undermined them all. Perhaps given the use of terms like scab and blackleg by supposed professionals, for goodness sake, by supposed ex-Queen's Officers then this is just as well.
If BA wanted to clear off and start their own airline, then I think more would applaud than not - at least there would be no dubiety about what the remains of BALPA was actually for!. I seriously think it should be considered - there seems to be a proliferation of Cabin Crew unions, which works very well.

For the future - well, I look forward to seeing the cafuffle when the first 787 is allocated to OS. It will make this look like a jamboree in the playground, and BALPA already know what the management response will be now to the slightest objection to such Fleeting. The phrase "Shot your bolt" springs to mind.It will be ironic indeed if BALPA and the BACC end up in the European Court of human rights demanding the right to strike - I wonder how much more of the non-BA members' contributions that will waste? Fortunately, like BOAC, I shall watch from the sidelines as a mere contractor.

[M.Mouse]

Some might wonder about the quality of the advice BALPA received that persuaded them to seek the court option.

So when BA said to BALPA 'announce a strike and we will sue you' what was BALPA supposed to do? Roll over and stuff the consequences? It is being overlooked that the case law now applying has only just been made and BALPA became a victim of timing as much as anything else.

BA have won this battle and their plan to drive down pilots Ts & Cs can proceed with all speed. It is surprising that many seem to revel in that outcome.

It is not just BA pilots who are the losers despite that appearing to be what so many are gloating over.

[bluepilot]

Agreed M.Mouse, this is not just a loss for BA pilots it is a loss for all UK pilots, however dont give up!

As i said before turn this disadvantage into an advantage, unite with the OS CC and be strong, divided and you will fall.

To all those who are gloating at this outcome and feel that the BA boys got their deserves...think again. BALPA has been discredited by this loss to which all management of BALPA recognised companies will be rubbing their hands in glee. BALPA will need to look at what happened here and learn for the future...maybe some heads need to roll.

[BOAC]

The BA posters here are understandably smarting. However, could they have a closer, less anguished look at this thread where you will find that with a FEW predictable exceptions, most PILOTS here are not 'gloating' and 'Nigel bashing'. There always will be those who do take the opportunity to have a go, and let's face it, there has been enough 'stuff you Jack, I'm all right' and arrogance over the years to encourage that.

Go away, lick your wounds and let the dust settle. BA appear to have trumped your cards. Time for a review of things at BALPA. It will unfortunately be expensive for all BALPA members and long-term bad for pilots' T&C in general.

[ARINC]

All rather amusing.....at the risk of sounding somewhat jaundiced...

having been on the wrong end of management/union negotiations myself in the past and having put all my eggs in the union basket only to find I had completely wasted my time and effort with the union rolling over, I did the decent thing for my self esteem and T&C's, I left.

I don't suppose for one minute any of our BA contributors feel quite that much conviction about the anti OS cause.

[goerring]

Is that smoke on the flight deck from a burning SCOPE agreement ?
OXO ON everybody for a breath of fresh air !

[Rotors]

I think Jumbo has got it about right - did they not consider a 'no win - no fee' basis?

[bobmij]

Any accomplished chess players will know that a bad situation can change for the better very quickly and vice versa. As long as people still have the will to struggle and fight there is still hope.
It's not over til it's over. (and it's still not over)

[CaptKremin]

Will the OpenSkies pilots be welcome to join BALPA?

[Devillish]

This is a fascinating thread. As a bystander and long-time lurker now forced to register I do wish to offer an 'outsider' point of view.

Imagine you were running a huge multi billion dollar business that was very profitable. One day after years of 'cordial' relations and many discussions a union comes along ands asks for one big thing (let's call it all pilots on one seniority list) or else they'll ballot their members to strike.

It sounds a lot like holding you to ransom but nevertheless you seek to reassure. You state that there is no threat.

Despite all of this the position remains 'give us this or we'll strike'.

That is a pure, unmitigated threat. As a negotiator you have no place to go to meet halfway. Whichever way you cut it one side wins and one side loses.

As the Big Corp you have the duty to protect your assets and shareholders as well as to safeguard the jobs of the other employees.

BA acted in the only way it should have done when faced with such a demand. Had it capitulated then industry observers like myself and my colleagues would have shook our heads as we watched yet another player die on the road to Union 'partnership'.

BALPA trumped this up from day one - it was madness from the beginning and I suspect that they knew that (I cannot wait to read the court docs and disclosure information). BALPA displayed bad faith throughout and I am sure that this will come out in the wash.

Pilots - your union has played fast and loose with your money. They have destroyed any credibilty they had as a moderate union and have possibly started the unravelling of benchmark Ts and Cs. In the longer term this may be a good thing - I know of only a handful of industries which still sustain seniority based systems.

And what does seniority get you? Well, it gives a mechanism to ensure that a wholly inequitable system of incremental pay that ensures that the very top earners can pull £145k whilst the bottom boys and girls barely breach £30k. On top of that there exists a whole host of other potentially discriminatory rules relating to bidding rights.

Now I am not suggesting that experience should go unrewarded but that spread seems very hard to justify.

Out of this whole mad escapade you can take comfort from the following - by averting a strike BA allowed the employee bonus to be paid.

But look ahead - disaster looms for the sector as a whole and only the strong and flexible will survive. Your union does not pay your wages - most pilots I know would find it very tough to be poor and principled over paid and pragmatic. Perhaps it is time to start asking real questions about what it is that your Union is protecting? A system or your pay?

Want to make the job more 'professional'? Start pushing from the bottom not pulling from the top - it'll be an easier win to up new entrant salaries against the costs of training rather than explain away a gross inequity that has existed for three decades.

[Human Factor]

It sounds a lot like holding you to ransom but nevertheless you seek to reassure. You state that there is no threat.

The question is, how many times have you reassured that group in the past and gone back on your word? That will determine whether your reassurances are believed, irrespective of whether or not they are genuine.