The TNT B737 EMA/Birmingham incident thread
chiglet:
No; I retired earlier this year at the age of 65 (I was delighted to stay out of French airspace).
heading 125:
I have visited more ATC organisations than you have had hot dinners. I used to spend a huge amount of time at Prestwick "in the ocean" where my best mate was a controller.
Have you visited NY Centre? Now that is an experience - just do not expect formal dress!
Kai Tak Tower was pretty illuminating. There seemed to be a large acceptance of the inevitable when 13 was in use and there was a stiff crosswind.
Salalah was good too in the 1960s. An ACR7 (SRE) let down in the monsoon to a sand runway with no lights whatsoever and a 20 knot tailwind to break out at 250 feet just to go back in again at 150 feet and finally to get the runway at 100 feet - all of this with no glide path.
God how I loved those two Air Trafficers (where are you now Colin)?
Don't tell me to visit ATC my friend - I have visited more ATC organisations than you are ever likely to visit in your lifetime.
All I want is peace and quiet when I am trying to land in fog.
No; I retired earlier this year at the age of 65 (I was delighted to stay out of French airspace).
heading 125:
I have visited more ATC organisations than you have had hot dinners. I used to spend a huge amount of time at Prestwick "in the ocean" where my best mate was a controller.
Have you visited NY Centre? Now that is an experience - just do not expect formal dress!
Kai Tak Tower was pretty illuminating. There seemed to be a large acceptance of the inevitable when 13 was in use and there was a stiff crosswind.
Salalah was good too in the 1960s. An ACR7 (SRE) let down in the monsoon to a sand runway with no lights whatsoever and a 20 knot tailwind to break out at 250 feet just to go back in again at 150 feet and finally to get the runway at 100 feet - all of this with no glide path.
God how I loved those two Air Trafficers (where are you now Colin)?
Don't tell me to visit ATC my friend - I have visited more ATC organisations than you are ever likely to visit in your lifetime.
All I want is peace and quiet when I am trying to land in fog.
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Well done for visiting all those places. In a very few short words you must realise what experience you have to pass on. It may supprise you but I am both an ATCO and commercial pilot and have been doing both for 30 years. Yes I have had many a hot dinner. But I am always willing to learn more lessons. Good point about quiet in fog, but not always possible unfortunately.
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JW411, well said, I completely agree, having done many cat IIs at 4 or 5 in the morning totally s-----d out. The last thing you need is gabble in the last couple of hundred ft when your eyelids can hardly stay open. I'm sure RodtheSod would agree.
heading 125:
So after a bit of going around the houses we finally seem to be agreeing that when LVPs are in force then the frequency should be quiet. Now, if it is not going to be quiet then surely the airfield concerned cannot be considered to be LVP-compliant? How can you expect a Tower controller to look after the runway that he cannot see and at the same time direct ground traffic?
Mind you, this individual seemed to think that not only could he manage but he still had time to boll*ck me for having the temerity to land on his airfield!
I am glad that we have finally almost made our peace but you absolutely must understand that ATC are just as much a part of the "holes in the Swiss cheese" as anyone else.
I am still waiting to hear from a qualified ATC officer to tell me what would compel him to call an aircraft at 500 ft on a CAT III approach?
So after a bit of going around the houses we finally seem to be agreeing that when LVPs are in force then the frequency should be quiet. Now, if it is not going to be quiet then surely the airfield concerned cannot be considered to be LVP-compliant? How can you expect a Tower controller to look after the runway that he cannot see and at the same time direct ground traffic?
Mind you, this individual seemed to think that not only could he manage but he still had time to boll*ck me for having the temerity to land on his airfield!
I am glad that we have finally almost made our peace but you absolutely must understand that ATC are just as much a part of the "holes in the Swiss cheese" as anyone else.
I am still waiting to hear from a qualified ATC officer to tell me what would compel him to call an aircraft at 500 ft on a CAT III approach?
It stands to reason that ATC should not be transmitting such messages to an aircraft on short finals whether doing a CAT3 or a visual however it also stands to reason that the best response to such a message is silence. Better to say nothing and get on with the task in hand, same goes for the (admittedly rare) occasions when you get taxi instructions fired off at you whilst you are still doing 100kts down the runway.
Max Angle:
I quite agree but would it not be a bit distracting if you were that close to landing on a CAT III approach and ATC fires off a transmission that you don't understand because:
A. You are not expecting what he is saying and
B. English is not your first language so you do not quite understand it since you are within seconds of hitting the ground?
I quite agree but would it not be a bit distracting if you were that close to landing on a CAT III approach and ATC fires off a transmission that you don't understand because:
A. You are not expecting what he is saying and
B. English is not your first language so you do not quite understand it since you are within seconds of hitting the ground?
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[QUOTE=JW411]heading 125:
I am glad that we have finally almost made our peace but you absolutely must understand that ATC are just as much a part of the "holes in the Swiss cheese" as anyone else.
Yes agree. But the airlines don't want to pay for the service. So ATC are left to provide a minimal service. We would all love to have fully staffed towers, but that will not happen unless the airlines are willing to pay more. So expect boxed frequencies at certain times. But it must be remembered that the service provided is safe and still to an exceptionally high standard, but minimal when it is quiet.
I am glad that we have finally almost made our peace but you absolutely must understand that ATC are just as much a part of the "holes in the Swiss cheese" as anyone else.
Yes agree. But the airlines don't want to pay for the service. So ATC are left to provide a minimal service. We would all love to have fully staffed towers, but that will not happen unless the airlines are willing to pay more. So expect boxed frequencies at certain times. But it must be remembered that the service provided is safe and still to an exceptionally high standard, but minimal when it is quiet.
Last edited by heading 125; 10th Jul 2006 at 19:59.
Sims Fly Virtually
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. . . and the airlines don't want to pay for a "full service" because they are "LOCOs", be it Ryan, EZ, or even BA(con)? The PAX are the driving force?
Be it on our heads? Comments on this thought appreciated . . . .
Be it on our heads? Comments on this thought appreciated . . . .
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JW411 - Sorry - I'm not an ATC Officer either, all I can add is that sometimes, even when trying really really hard not to, mistakes will still be made ! 
Coconutty
transmit only has one "t"
Coconutty
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JW411
I would agree that it would be a pain to receive a transmission low down on a CAT III approach, but whether your first language is English or not, the guys in the pointy end are paid to use their better judgement and ignore the transmission.
I am sure that if the transmission was to go around, the only pertinent one in these circumstances, then it would be clear no matter what language you speak.
I say this in general and not specifically with regards to the incident that has occured as we have yet to have enough details to comment on it.
I would agree that it would be a pain to receive a transmission low down on a CAT III approach, but whether your first language is English or not, the guys in the pointy end are paid to use their better judgement and ignore the transmission.
I am sure that if the transmission was to go around, the only pertinent one in these circumstances, then it would be clear no matter what language you speak.
I say this in general and not specifically with regards to the incident that has occured as we have yet to have enough details to comment on it.
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you absolutely must understand that ATC are just as much a part of the "holes in the Swiss cheese" as anyone else
Originally Posted by JW411
"It might astonish all you guys down there but some of us are actually up here trying to get down there so can you all shut up and can I please have landing clearance"
How very professional !!!
If you want to bash ATC (as you obviously have every intention to do so) why not start a new thread and leave this one to the facts !!
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You are missing the point entirely. It was not because the Tower Controller was transmitting when I was trying to get a landing clearance in fog. It was because he was in a situation where HE had no control of who was blocking the frequency by calling HIM; viz: tugs, dead rabbit collectors, "have you got my clearance to Heathrow etc etc". He was not in a position to do his job properly for whatever reason.
THESE PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE ON THE FREQUENCY WHILST LVPS ARE IN FORCE - CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT?
THESE PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE ON THE FREQUENCY WHILST LVPS ARE IN FORCE - CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT?
He was not in a position to do his job properly for whatever reason.
On ATIS for the current stats and you haven't been listening to the atc frequency for the past ten mins, let alone the past 1 min!!! Change the frequency and get in there!! Call for clearence, startup or push... whatever!! Everyone does it!!
So what you are saying the situation should be.. that NO-ONE bar inbound a/c should transmit in LVP's?? Where does that leave you on departure????
How many times does atc have to say 'stand-by' before everyone gets the message?? Currently on frequency!!?????
I get you.. But it's down to each airfields' rules and regulations, ain't gonna happen in our lifetime i imagine!!????
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OK, so it has been mentioned that it is possible that ATC asked a question and that it is possible that one of the crew pressed the A/P disconnect instead of the transmit button. It is only speculation and yet we suddenly have a dummy spit because some of you decided to have a debate about some experience on a different a/c at a different airport at some other time!
Take your debate to Tech Log and the rest of you having imaginary coronaries about ATC passing on a request, drop it because we don't know whether they did. Just because someone suggested it may have happened doesn't mean it really did.
It really isn't pleasant to have to delete all your efforts just because you can't keep the discussion on track.
Take your debate to Tech Log and the rest of you having imaginary coronaries about ATC passing on a request, drop it because we don't know whether they did. Just because someone suggested it may have happened doesn't mean it really did.
It really isn't pleasant to have to delete all your efforts just because you can't keep the discussion on track.
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737 Autopilot trim
On an autoland approach, the 737 autopilot winds in a lot of nose up trim at 400ft.
If you disconnect the autopilot on such an approach below 400ft. you have to push hard to stop a fast pitch up to way past 20deg ANU.
If in this situation you attempt an AP re-engage, you will be lucky to achieve it first time. Next problem is that the modes will not be what you want if you are away from the FD bars, so you may get CWS in one or both axes.
It is a firm scenario for a crash and a good reason to GA as the rules require.
FC.
If you disconnect the autopilot on such an approach below 400ft. you have to push hard to stop a fast pitch up to way past 20deg ANU.
If in this situation you attempt an AP re-engage, you will be lucky to achieve it first time. Next problem is that the modes will not be what you want if you are away from the FD bars, so you may get CWS in one or both axes.
It is a firm scenario for a crash and a good reason to GA as the rules require.
FC.
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TNT - BBC News article
As mentioned on this thread previously it appears the crew have been sacked (BBC online report).
Sorry but I could not remember if it was reported as fact previously or just hinted at.
The article is under West Midlands Region on the BBC site.
Pete
Sorry but I could not remember if it was reported as fact previously or just hinted at.
The article is under West Midlands Region on the BBC site.
Pete
Considerably Bemused Wannabe
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Not being in the aviation environment, I'm not sure how these things work.
I realise the consequences that resulted from this accident, and I also realise the incident occurred as a result of human error. But is sacking the flight crew a just punishment?
I realise the consequences that resulted from this accident, and I also realise the incident occurred as a result of human error. But is sacking the flight crew a just punishment?