Pilots who overshot Hawaii runway fired, face FAA action
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Staying awake
Dominic,
I will try to shed some light on the sleep issues for you. I just left home yesterday, east coast of the USA. I arrived at my base in asia 14 hours later. I slept to 2 am local time and went back to bed at 6 am to try to get some sleep before my assigned trip back to the east coast of the USA. My departure time is 1930 local time which will be 0530 as far as my body clock is concerned. Spend 12 months a year, over a career at this and it's hard to tell when the body might want to sleep. I know it does not explain the short sector issue but I was once a commuter pilot and flying 6 to 10 short legs a day which is much more difficult and has it's own set of issues. The body requires sleep and when you work on someone else's schedule the need for sleep and the time available do not always coincide.
Rgds
Ed
I will try to shed some light on the sleep issues for you. I just left home yesterday, east coast of the USA. I arrived at my base in asia 14 hours later. I slept to 2 am local time and went back to bed at 6 am to try to get some sleep before my assigned trip back to the east coast of the USA. My departure time is 1930 local time which will be 0530 as far as my body clock is concerned. Spend 12 months a year, over a career at this and it's hard to tell when the body might want to sleep. I know it does not explain the short sector issue but I was once a commuter pilot and flying 6 to 10 short legs a day which is much more difficult and has it's own set of issues. The body requires sleep and when you work on someone else's schedule the need for sleep and the time available do not always coincide.
Rgds
Ed
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Falling asleep is easy ... it's staying awake thats hard....
Hey, With the rostering practices that are outrageous, and airlines that work their crews to the bone, it is any wonder we are seeing more of these types of incidents. Remember no Captain or co-pilot ever goes to work to blatantly break the rules. Really!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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It's not about me and my career,
pb
ZbV
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Ignore function first ever use. Guess who's got the nr1 spot on the list 
It's the one who didn't take his happy pills this morning 
Back to business. Having mostly flown the back side of the clock the last few years it is the rest times and requirements that needed changing not how many hours one flies per year. The new Subpart Q is a big improvement in this area especially changing the rest time to count before the next FDP and not the end of the preceding. A small change on paper but big difference in reality.
Not flying long haul anymore, I find that my sleep patterns are slowly returning to normal, I sleep well during the nights (Not sitting at FL350 staring into the darkness) and wake up fresh, even if it is an early morning. I presume the quality of long haul flying greatly depends on the company you work for and their routes as well as their rostering system. For me flying short sectors seems to have worked quite well.
FAA pt121 rules are much less stringent than those of UK CAA or JAA/EASA. This could be one of the reasons to the incident in Hawaii.
It's the one who didn't take his happy pills this morning Back to business. Having mostly flown the back side of the clock the last few years it is the rest times and requirements that needed changing not how many hours one flies per year. The new Subpart Q is a big improvement in this area especially changing the rest time to count before the next FDP and not the end of the preceding. A small change on paper but big difference in reality.
Not flying long haul anymore, I find that my sleep patterns are slowly returning to normal, I sleep well during the nights (Not sitting at FL350 staring into the darkness) and wake up fresh, even if it is an early morning. I presume the quality of long haul flying greatly depends on the company you work for and their routes as well as their rostering system. For me flying short sectors seems to have worked quite well.
FAA pt121 rules are much less stringent than those of UK CAA or JAA/EASA. This could be one of the reasons to the incident in Hawaii.
Last edited by JJflyer; 30th Dec 2008 at 09:38.
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That's a good point, Pit Bull. We may not be comparing apples with apples, as you suggest!
Ever flogged around on DC3s for 12, 13 or 14hr duty periods? Middle of the night, numerous landings, low level, rough as guts, no radar, no food, hosties gone to pieces and pax throwing up!
No!... thought not.
You lot are really starting to bore me with your soft, poncy attitude!
Go sell used cars...and I bet you bitch like buggery about that too!!
Ever flogged around on DC3s for 12, 13 or 14hr duty periods? Middle of the night, numerous landings, low level, rough as guts, no radar, no food, hosties gone to pieces and pax throwing up!
No!... thought not.
You lot are really starting to bore me with your soft, poncy attitude!
Go sell used cars...and I bet you bitch like buggery about that too!!
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Pilots nodding off, particularly on long haul, is a perennial problem. Maybe the proper solution is a pragmatic approach. 
One of the guys at the Orval recalled a certain European airline, engaged mostly in trans-Atlantic flights, that addressed the problem by fitting a loud egg timer to the overhead panel.
Apparently rest periods of about 30 min. were recommended and, coupled with standard cabin staff visits every 20 min., seemed to work very well. With all crewmembers arriving at destination maybe tired, but not fatigued.
Crew are not automata, legislation up to the eyeballs will not provide solutions.
One of the guys at the Orval recalled a certain European airline, engaged mostly in trans-Atlantic flights, that addressed the problem by fitting a loud egg timer to the overhead panel.
Apparently rest periods of about 30 min. were recommended and, coupled with standard cabin staff visits every 20 min., seemed to work very well. With all crewmembers arriving at destination maybe tired, but not fatigued.
Crew are not automata, legislation up to the eyeballs will not provide solutions.
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Is it ever OK to sleep, power nap, rest ones eyes or simply rest whilst the other crew member takes over all duties?
Ever flogged around on DC3s for 12, 13 or 14hr duty periods? Middle of the night, numerous landings, low level, rough as guts, no radar, no food, hosties gone to pieces and pax throwing up!
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Obie,
Well, having lead an interesting and varied aviation career, the answer to all of the above is Yes, with the exception of having flown the DC3.
Although I have seen them.... dissolving into heaps of corosion ,parked around the edges of various backwater airfields.
But if the crux of your arguement is that you've flown a type I haven't I'd say you need to try a lot harder. Essentially all you've done is illustrate - yet again - that your career happened at a different point in the development of the industry.
I don't really see where you're coming from. There are various pro's and con's in the way the industry has developed in the time I've been associated with it. No question about it - some things have definitely got easier. For myself though, there is no doubt that rostering practices and to a degree total time flown have made this a more tiring job than it used to be. Doesnt mean flying isn't fun, or that tiredness can't be mitigated by lifestyle, to a degree at least.
For me, the real eye opener was losing my medical temporarily. Fortunately nothing as serious as your situation, but I was grounded for a few months. I wasn't on sick leave though, I took a deskjob on an avionics project. So I wasn't rested because I was having a lot of time off. I was working regular hours and eating regular meals; and I can honestly say the difference was astonishing. I felt 100% more alert, far better able to focus, and I lost half a stone as well.
I should also point out that I've had more tiring jobs than as a line pilot... but not by much.
Bottom line is this - within my circle of experience, fatigue has become more of an issue in recent years. You can say not - but if you're haven't flown 800+ hours under 'modern' rostering practices for several consecutive years you can't really speak with any credibility on the subject.
pb
Ever flogged around on DC3s for 12, 13 or 14hr duty periods? Middle of the night, numerous landings, low level, rough as guts, no radar, no food, hosties gone to pieces and pax throwing up!
Although I have seen them.... dissolving into heaps of corosion ,parked around the edges of various backwater airfields.
But if the crux of your arguement is that you've flown a type I haven't I'd say you need to try a lot harder. Essentially all you've done is illustrate - yet again - that your career happened at a different point in the development of the industry.
I don't really see where you're coming from. There are various pro's and con's in the way the industry has developed in the time I've been associated with it. No question about it - some things have definitely got easier. For myself though, there is no doubt that rostering practices and to a degree total time flown have made this a more tiring job than it used to be. Doesnt mean flying isn't fun, or that tiredness can't be mitigated by lifestyle, to a degree at least.
For me, the real eye opener was losing my medical temporarily. Fortunately nothing as serious as your situation, but I was grounded for a few months. I wasn't on sick leave though, I took a deskjob on an avionics project. So I wasn't rested because I was having a lot of time off. I was working regular hours and eating regular meals; and I can honestly say the difference was astonishing. I felt 100% more alert, far better able to focus, and I lost half a stone as well.
I should also point out that I've had more tiring jobs than as a line pilot... but not by much.
Bottom line is this - within my circle of experience, fatigue has become more of an issue in recent years. You can say not - but if you're haven't flown 800+ hours under 'modern' rostering practices for several consecutive years you can't really speak with any credibility on the subject.
pb
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Put On?
Obie has got to be jerking everyone's chain in this thread.
NOBODY could possibly be such a jerk and so arrogant towards everyone else in aviation (?)
Either that, or he's one of those for whom the job was his entire life and he's so lost and bitter and resentful in retirement that his brain is hardening.
NOBODY could possibly be such a jerk and so arrogant towards everyone else in aviation (?)
Either that, or he's one of those for whom the job was his entire life and he's so lost and bitter and resentful in retirement that his brain is hardening.
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Well, to get back to what happened here. The remedy was to fire the two pilots concerned. Thank God that has solved the problem. It will of course never happen again. A bullet dodged. Well done FAA , Mesa and the NTSB.
The public can rest assured.
How ridiculous was this lynching ?
This happens. And knowing quite a few regional airline pilots in the US, I know that they run them ragged 90 % of the time. Although I am not familiar with the rest times for these guys, the odds of them having a good roster is very very small , trust me !
We can debate back and forth whether it should happen or not, whether pilots now are wussies (Obie !) . Irrelevant.
It does happen, and should be addressed in an adult way by the authorities, SOPs etc. to minimise the risks and ensure safety is #1.
This case will send future incidents underground and does nothing to deal with the issue. The NTSB has had fatigue on their wish list for many years and it comes up on their reports an alarming amount of times.
But as expected in aviation companies these days , for good PR, fire the pilots, proclaim everything ok and stick your head back in the sand.
The FAA needs to grow some B!@#lls and start acting like a governing agency.
The public can rest assured.
How ridiculous was this lynching ?
This happens. And knowing quite a few regional airline pilots in the US, I know that they run them ragged 90 % of the time. Although I am not familiar with the rest times for these guys, the odds of them having a good roster is very very small , trust me !
We can debate back and forth whether it should happen or not, whether pilots now are wussies (Obie !) . Irrelevant.
It does happen, and should be addressed in an adult way by the authorities, SOPs etc. to minimise the risks and ensure safety is #1.
This case will send future incidents underground and does nothing to deal with the issue. The NTSB has had fatigue on their wish list for many years and it comes up on their reports an alarming amount of times.
But as expected in aviation companies these days , for good PR, fire the pilots, proclaim everything ok and stick your head back in the sand.
The FAA needs to grow some B!@#lls and start acting like a governing agency.
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Tracking the pilots' path
This is a time line of events involving the pilots of go! Flight 1002, who fell asleep on a flight to Hilo from Honolulu on Feb. 13. The time line begins the day before.
Feb. 12
» The captain woke up at 4 a.m. and bought a fast-food breakfast. He reported for work at 5:40 a.m. The first officer said he woke between 4:50 and 5 a.m.; he reported for duty at 5:40 a.m. Their flight together was delayed because a flight attendant was late. They flew eight flights together and got off duty at 2:47 p.m.
» The captain said he went to bed between 8 and 9 a.m., after having arranged for the first officer to pick him up the next morning. He described his sleep as "pretty good."
» The first officer said he went to bed at 9:30 p.m. and described his sleep as "good."
Feb. 13
» The captain woke up at 4 a.m. but did not eat breakfast because the first officer was late in picking him up. The first officer woke between 4:50 and 5 a.m. and ate a pastry. They both reported for work at 5:40 a.m.
» Due to a flight attendant scheduling error, their first flight departed 30 minutes late. They shared a package of cookies on that flight.
» 9:16 a.m. - Flight 1002 departed Honolulu Airport.
» 9:30 a.m. - Captain informed the FAA's Honolulu Control Facility (HCF) that Flight 1002 was climbing through 11,700 feet to its cruise altitude. HCF confirmed communication and cleared flight to designated area near the Big Island.
» 9:33 a.m. - HCF confirmed previous instruction. Captain acknowledged transmission.
» 9:40 a.m. - As Flight 1002 crossed Maui, HCF instructed pilots to change radio frequencies. There was no response.
» For the next 18 minutes HCF attempted to contact Flight 1002 but got no response.
» 9:51 a.m. - An HCF controller asked another controller to try contacting the plane using a different frequency. The controller did so, with no response.
» 9:55 a.m. - Flight 1002 passed Hilo and headed out over the ocean. HCF asked another go! flight to contact Flight 1002 on a company radio frequency. The other flight crew tried but got no response.
» A Continental Airlines flight tried to contact Flight 1002 on an emergency frequency but also got no response.
» The first officer then awoke, checked the fuel gauge and woke up the captain, telling him that air traffic controllers were trying to contact him.
» 9:58 a.m. - Flight 1002 captain contacted air controllers, but the transmission was unintelligible. HCF asked whether there was an emergency. The captain said no. HCF then issued instructions to return to Hilo.
» 10:15 a.m. - Flight 1002 landed at Hilo Airport.
» Shortly thereafter the captain told the FAA via telephone that they had lost communication because they had selected the wrong radio frequency. FAA personnel said the incident would be reported to Mesa Airlines, the parent company of go!
» Pilots discussed whether they should fly the next flight back to Honolulu. They decided it would be "safe to do so because they were feeling very alert as a result of the incident."
» 10:29 a.m. - Flight 1044 departed Hilo for Honolulu.
» During the flight to Oahu, the pilots decided to remove themselves from duty upon arrival in Honolulu.
» 11:18 a.m. - Flight 1044 landed at Honolulu Airport.
Source: National Transportation Safety Board
This is a time line of events involving the pilots of go! Flight 1002, who fell asleep on a flight to Hilo from Honolulu on Feb. 13. The time line begins the day before.
Feb. 12
» The captain woke up at 4 a.m. and bought a fast-food breakfast. He reported for work at 5:40 a.m. The first officer said he woke between 4:50 and 5 a.m.; he reported for duty at 5:40 a.m. Their flight together was delayed because a flight attendant was late. They flew eight flights together and got off duty at 2:47 p.m.
» The captain said he went to bed between 8 and 9 a.m., after having arranged for the first officer to pick him up the next morning. He described his sleep as "pretty good."
» The first officer said he went to bed at 9:30 p.m. and described his sleep as "good."
Feb. 13
» The captain woke up at 4 a.m. but did not eat breakfast because the first officer was late in picking him up. The first officer woke between 4:50 and 5 a.m. and ate a pastry. They both reported for work at 5:40 a.m.
» Due to a flight attendant scheduling error, their first flight departed 30 minutes late. They shared a package of cookies on that flight.
» 9:16 a.m. - Flight 1002 departed Honolulu Airport.
» 9:30 a.m. - Captain informed the FAA's Honolulu Control Facility (HCF) that Flight 1002 was climbing through 11,700 feet to its cruise altitude. HCF confirmed communication and cleared flight to designated area near the Big Island.
» 9:33 a.m. - HCF confirmed previous instruction. Captain acknowledged transmission.
» 9:40 a.m. - As Flight 1002 crossed Maui, HCF instructed pilots to change radio frequencies. There was no response.
» For the next 18 minutes HCF attempted to contact Flight 1002 but got no response.
» 9:51 a.m. - An HCF controller asked another controller to try contacting the plane using a different frequency. The controller did so, with no response.
» 9:55 a.m. - Flight 1002 passed Hilo and headed out over the ocean. HCF asked another go! flight to contact Flight 1002 on a company radio frequency. The other flight crew tried but got no response.
» A Continental Airlines flight tried to contact Flight 1002 on an emergency frequency but also got no response.
» The first officer then awoke, checked the fuel gauge and woke up the captain, telling him that air traffic controllers were trying to contact him.
» 9:58 a.m. - Flight 1002 captain contacted air controllers, but the transmission was unintelligible. HCF asked whether there was an emergency. The captain said no. HCF then issued instructions to return to Hilo.
» 10:15 a.m. - Flight 1002 landed at Hilo Airport.
» Shortly thereafter the captain told the FAA via telephone that they had lost communication because they had selected the wrong radio frequency. FAA personnel said the incident would be reported to Mesa Airlines, the parent company of go!
» Pilots discussed whether they should fly the next flight back to Honolulu. They decided it would be "safe to do so because they were feeling very alert as a result of the incident."
» 10:29 a.m. - Flight 1044 departed Hilo for Honolulu.
» During the flight to Oahu, the pilots decided to remove themselves from duty upon arrival in Honolulu.
» 11:18 a.m. - Flight 1044 landed at Honolulu Airport.
Source: National Transportation Safety Board
Last edited by Junkflyer; 30th Dec 2008 at 16:20.
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Hey! Pit Bull, you're not listening to what I'm telling you, none of you are! You're hearing what you want to hear!
Like all of you I've flown many consecutive years at 800+ on the same equipment that you're flying now, including my final year at 842hrs 3yrs ago at the age of 65!
Didn't affect me so why does it affect you?
Like all of you I've flown many consecutive years at 800+ on the same equipment that you're flying now, including my final year at 842hrs 3yrs ago at the age of 65!
Didn't affect me so why does it affect you?
The time line does not really give any real indications on why they BOTH fell asleep. It indicates that they both had maybe 7 hours of "good" sleep prior to the flight so doing 2 early wake ups is fairly much the norm for most shorthaul pilots.
It seems that there lies a more complicated and fatigue induced timeline maybe building up for the last week, month or 6 months. Not just the work related issues but you have to dive deeper into other "life" factors that may have had an influence.
As far as Im concerned the timeline shown gives NO excuses for what occured and a more detailed lengthy timeline should give a more clearer picture with maybe what these pilots faced.
It seems that there lies a more complicated and fatigue induced timeline maybe building up for the last week, month or 6 months. Not just the work related issues but you have to dive deeper into other "life" factors that may have had an influence.
As far as Im concerned the timeline shown gives NO excuses for what occured and a more detailed lengthy timeline should give a more clearer picture with maybe what these pilots faced.
Thousand years ago a 4 eng. prop. jet aircraft ( Vanguard ? can't remember, doesn't matter, slowish, anyway ) departed Bristol, UK around 08.00 am and crashed making an approach in bad, snow, weather, near Basle around 1.5 hrs. later ( pls. don't pick me up on details - doesn't matter.) I was driving home after a New York - London overnight sector, when I heard the Mg. Dir. of the airline being asked on the BBC if fatigue could have been a factor - not at all, was the reply, the flight left at 0800 ( approx ) so what could possibly have caused a fatigue problem a couple of hours later ?
Turned out that the aircraft left Manston, and flew via Bournemouth before landing at Bristol to refuel and load the pax for an 08.00 take off.
At prop.jet speeds, work it back yourselves, the crew would have reported for duty around 03.00 - 04.00 for the pre-flight prep. and two sectors before arriving at Bristol for an 0800 departure, so what time did they get up to drive to Manston ? 01.00 ( ish ) ? So what time did they go to bed in a normal, family home, kids, T.V., to try to sleep ? And what time did they get home the previous afternoon, after maybe 3 or 4 holiday charter sectors around the Med ? And what had they been doing for the three or four days previous. Not fatigued because they started the last, fatal, sector at a 'normal' start-work hour ? Who says ?
I was so incensed at the flippant reply, that I drove straight around to my local M.P. before reaching home, and 'explained' a few facts of airline life to him - to his surprise, and he 'promised' to bring it up with the then "Aviation" Minister. Was subsequently invited to lunch in The House, with said M.P. and put my case to the "Minister" . Not a lot has changed, tho'
Turned out that the aircraft left Manston, and flew via Bournemouth before landing at Bristol to refuel and load the pax for an 08.00 take off.
At prop.jet speeds, work it back yourselves, the crew would have reported for duty around 03.00 - 04.00 for the pre-flight prep. and two sectors before arriving at Bristol for an 0800 departure, so what time did they get up to drive to Manston ? 01.00 ( ish ) ? So what time did they go to bed in a normal, family home, kids, T.V., to try to sleep ? And what time did they get home the previous afternoon, after maybe 3 or 4 holiday charter sectors around the Med ? And what had they been doing for the three or four days previous. Not fatigued because they started the last, fatal, sector at a 'normal' start-work hour ? Who says ?
I was so incensed at the flippant reply, that I drove straight around to my local M.P. before reaching home, and 'explained' a few facts of airline life to him - to his surprise, and he 'promised' to bring it up with the then "Aviation" Minister. Was subsequently invited to lunch in The House, with said M.P. and put my case to the "Minister" . Not a lot has changed, tho'
ZbV
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Hi ExSp33db1rd
In that sense not a lot has changed, just gotten harder as companies push to the limits. I found the report for the accident in Basle Air Accidents Investigation Branch: 11/1975 G-AXOP
However I do believe that you are referring to an earlier one where one of the reasons mentioned was crew fatigue ASN Aircraft accident Vickers 951 Vanguard G-APEE London-Heathrow Airport (LHR)
Happy and safe new year 09
In that sense not a lot has changed, just gotten harder as companies push to the limits. I found the report for the accident in Basle Air Accidents Investigation Branch: 11/1975 G-AXOP
However I do believe that you are referring to an earlier one where one of the reasons mentioned was crew fatigue ASN Aircraft accident Vickers 951 Vanguard G-APEE London-Heathrow Airport (LHR)
Happy and safe new year 09
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Hey! Pit Bull, you're not listening to what I'm telling you, none of you are! You're hearing what you want to hear!
Like all of you
I've flown many consecutive years at 800+
on the same equipment that you're flying now,
including my final year at 842hrs 3yrs ago at the age of 65!
Didn't affect me so why does it affect you?
Then again maybe you wouldn't; fact is there are a lot of individual variations in this kind of thing. Maybe you're off down one end of the bell curve - in which case, good for you. But flight time limitations need to be good for the 95 percentile. Face it, the clear majority opinion suggests that fatigue is more of an issue than it used to be.
(p.s you'll notice I've addressed your points one by one, and either conceded them or made a counterpoint. That's an arguement. Simply repeating the same point,
Hope you lot grow some balls in '09!
pb
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Re Post #76
Yet again, so wrong, so wrong! Indeed, so wrong you could even be a journalist?
It is really too shameful to spread such utter, misconceived, drivel.
There are still people (a couple at the Orval) who have intimate knowledge of the events of the sad day to which you allude. You may not lightly tread on their toes!
Quote: "Thousand years ago…" Actually 1973
Pity that you did not take the trouble to read the official report (Air Accidents Investigation Branch: 11/1975 G-AXOP)
Before lurching into erroneous print…
Quote: "Turned out that the aircraft left Manston, and flew via Bournemouth before landing at Bristol to refuel and load the pax for an 08.00 take off."
To save your wrinkled gray cells here is an excerpt from the official report:
" On Tuesday, 10 April 1973, the aircraft G-AXOP, a Vickers Vanguard 952 belonging to the British company Invicta International Airlines (Invicta), was used on charter flight IM 435 from Luton via Bristol to Basel. 139 passengers were taken on board in Bristol. It took off for Basel at 0719 hrs with Captain A Dorman in the left-hand and Captain I Terry in the right-hand pilot's seat."
Quote: "Not fatigued because they started the last, fatal, sector at a 'normal' start-work hour ? Who says ?"
Well actually, the official report says:
" Captain Dorman's rest periods before commencing the flight from Luton amounted to 27 hrs, his duty period up to the accident was approximately 4 hrs 45 mins. He had flown 23 hrs 25 mins in the last 7 days."
Of Capt. Terry: " The pilot had had a rest period of 13 hrs 20 mins before commencing flight IM 435 in Luton, his duty period up to the accident was approximately 4 hrs 45 mins. He had flown 17 hrs 25 mins in the last 7 days."
Fatigue a factor? Not according to the official report. The MD naturally had a position to defend, however, calmer minds concurred.
Quote: " I was so incensed at the flippant reply, that I drove straight around to my local M.P." Well bully for you!
Based on such limited knowledge you obviously just needed an excuse to bully and badger some poor unsuspecting soul.
What actually happened is in the official report. However, those were the days before CRM had become such an integrated part of training.
Yet again, so wrong, so wrong! Indeed, so wrong you could even be a journalist?
It is really too shameful to spread such utter, misconceived, drivel.
There are still people (a couple at the Orval) who have intimate knowledge of the events of the sad day to which you allude. You may not lightly tread on their toes!
Quote: "Thousand years ago…" Actually 1973
Pity that you did not take the trouble to read the official report (Air Accidents Investigation Branch: 11/1975 G-AXOP)
Before lurching into erroneous print…
Quote: "Turned out that the aircraft left Manston, and flew via Bournemouth before landing at Bristol to refuel and load the pax for an 08.00 take off."
To save your wrinkled gray cells here is an excerpt from the official report:
" On Tuesday, 10 April 1973, the aircraft G-AXOP, a Vickers Vanguard 952 belonging to the British company Invicta International Airlines (Invicta), was used on charter flight IM 435 from Luton via Bristol to Basel. 139 passengers were taken on board in Bristol. It took off for Basel at 0719 hrs with Captain A Dorman in the left-hand and Captain I Terry in the right-hand pilot's seat."
Quote: "Not fatigued because they started the last, fatal, sector at a 'normal' start-work hour ? Who says ?"
Well actually, the official report says:
" Captain Dorman's rest periods before commencing the flight from Luton amounted to 27 hrs, his duty period up to the accident was approximately 4 hrs 45 mins. He had flown 23 hrs 25 mins in the last 7 days."
Of Capt. Terry: " The pilot had had a rest period of 13 hrs 20 mins before commencing flight IM 435 in Luton, his duty period up to the accident was approximately 4 hrs 45 mins. He had flown 17 hrs 25 mins in the last 7 days."
Fatigue a factor? Not according to the official report. The MD naturally had a position to defend, however, calmer minds concurred.
Quote: " I was so incensed at the flippant reply, that I drove straight around to my local M.P." Well bully for you!
Based on such limited knowledge you obviously just needed an excuse to bully and badger some poor unsuspecting soul.
What actually happened is in the official report. However, those were the days before CRM had become such an integrated part of training.
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JJflyer,
thanks for the two links, they make sobering reading (and the Invicta accident should be required reading for anyone brought up on the latest generation of EFIS aircraft as a lesson on the necessity of situational awareness without a TV)
Interestingly, there appeared to be no hesitation in apportioning some of the blame on tiredness in the BEA accident ,as they had made several approaches & it was now 0123 in the morning (doesn't say in this abridged version how long they had been on duty, I assume they had done at least 1 previous sector Northbound prior to the accident flight ? )
However, the Swiss didn't seem to think a crew @ 0913 who had been on duty (never mind travel time to work etc) for 4hr45 already, would perhaps be feeling less than bright eyed & bushy tailed.
thanks for the two links, they make sobering reading (and the Invicta accident should be required reading for anyone brought up on the latest generation of EFIS aircraft as a lesson on the necessity of situational awareness without a TV)
Interestingly, there appeared to be no hesitation in apportioning some of the blame on tiredness in the BEA accident ,as they had made several approaches & it was now 0123 in the morning (doesn't say in this abridged version how long they had been on duty, I assume they had done at least 1 previous sector Northbound prior to the accident flight ? )
However, the Swiss didn't seem to think a crew @ 0913 who had been on duty (never mind travel time to work etc) for 4hr45 already, would perhaps be feeling less than bright eyed & bushy tailed.