Pilots who overshot Hawaii runway fired, face FAA action
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Hi Obie,
might I ask how many flight hours you've actually done in all those years?
I still hope I'm gonne make so many years of service, but I sometimes doubt it in the current conditions. I'm fit, but the body just can't take so much anymore, hence tiredness. And I know I'm not the only one.
Amount of landings might also be interesting.
I feel that there are so many study cases about tiredness with pilots, but mostly aimed at long-haul duties. Where as short-haul pilots (like me) spend the same time (or longer sometimes) a day in an aircraft doing 4 (or more) take offs and landings and also doing this multiple days in a row with minimum rest. Not many studies found about this...
might I ask how many flight hours you've actually done in all those years?
I still hope I'm gonne make so many years of service, but I sometimes doubt it in the current conditions. I'm fit, but the body just can't take so much anymore, hence tiredness. And I know I'm not the only one.
Amount of landings might also be interesting.
I feel that there are so many study cases about tiredness with pilots, but mostly aimed at long-haul duties. Where as short-haul pilots (like me) spend the same time (or longer sometimes) a day in an aircraft doing 4 (or more) take offs and landings and also doing this multiple days in a row with minimum rest. Not many studies found about this...
Last edited by bop319; 28th Dec 2008 at 09:45. Reason: edit for spelling (probably still some there)
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15,000, bop, plus another 2k on sim work (back of the clock)
Domestic short haul plus international short/medium (also back of the clock), but no long haul.
No big deal...just plan your life around the roster! Not the roster around your life!!
Otherwise, get another job!
Domestic short haul plus international short/medium (also back of the clock), but no long haul.
No big deal...just plan your life around the roster! Not the roster around your life!!
Otherwise, get another job!
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Well Obie, here's the thing...
17K hours over a 46 year career isnt really very much at all. 370 hours a year in fact. In the current environment short/medium haul pilots will do at least double that at most operators, indeed many will be up towards 900 hours a year which is 2.4 times more than you managed.
So, yes, clearly the current crop of pilots are a "soft lot"
pb
17K hours over a 46 year career isnt really very much at all. 370 hours a year in fact. In the current environment short/medium haul pilots will do at least double that at most operators, indeed many will be up towards 900 hours a year which is 2.4 times more than you managed.
So, yes, clearly the current crop of pilots are a "soft lot"
pb
ZbV
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Yeh when my old man was flying times indeed where great, not so more. Min rest at all stations and CAA required mandatory days off no more no less.
Long haul, time difference night all the time. I didn't like the look of the face staring back at me in the mirror so I took a shorthaul day job.
Don't plan my life around roster unless is it absolutely necessary. Too many wasted days sleeping for or after a long flight. Missed parties and celebrations, friend, wife's you name it.
I work to LIVE not live to work. I have a life outside the job and as much as I like flying thats all this is, a job.
As for finding another job. Lets have a reality check here. Not an option really now is it.
As for being soft. Well I am glad that most of the hard guys with the ego that could hardly fit in an empty 747 have retired. If being hard is being stupid as it seems, I rather be soft and smart
in my modern ways.
Long haul, time difference night all the time. I didn't like the look of the face staring back at me in the mirror so I took a shorthaul day job.
Don't plan my life around roster unless is it absolutely necessary. Too many wasted days sleeping for or after a long flight. Missed parties and celebrations, friend, wife's you name it.
I work to LIVE not live to work. I have a life outside the job and as much as I like flying thats all this is, a job.
As for finding another job. Lets have a reality check here. Not an option really now is it.
As for being soft. Well I am glad that most of the hard guys with the ego that could hardly fit in an empty 747 have retired. If being hard is being stupid as it seems, I rather be soft and smart
in my modern ways.
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900 hours a year for a 45 yr career, no-one is going to look as good as Obie at the end of that
You would think he felt rested enough to digest that simple fact after 370 hrs a year.
You would think he felt rested enough to digest that simple fact after 370 hrs a year.
Forgive me adding my $0.02 worth. I fly helicopters in the offshore industry, North Sea UK. We have mixed roster patterns but work on average 17 days in 28. Our duties can start at 6am, which for some means up at 4.30am for getting ready and travelling. We don't fly anywhere near 800 hours a year, more like 550-600, but, it's all very short sectors, the longest being about an hour, the shortest about 15 minutes. There can be shuttling between rigs for periods of time. The constant radio chatter, vibration of the aircraft, paperwork, and sometimes p*** poor weather conditions can make that 7 hour period of time very tiring. Up to 18 sectors, landings, take offs etc.
I haven't managed to nod off yet but some mornings it can be very hard to stay 100% focussed, not good for when you're out over the sea, in winter, at 200' and 80kts, flying an instrument approach using weather radar down to a 0.75nm decision.
I don't think it;s the type of flying, ie long haul, short haul, heli's, fixed wing, I think anyone can feel tired from the job they do. All we can do is to minimise the things likely to cause it.
Oh, and I think Obie (wan? Use the force?) If you only flew 380 hours a year. You've had an easy life I think. Probably nice to be siting pretty, up there on your throne, having never done any wrong, with your no doubt full salary pension
, which many guys these days will never see the likes of again. Lucky old sod!
I haven't managed to nod off yet but some mornings it can be very hard to stay 100% focussed, not good for when you're out over the sea, in winter, at 200' and 80kts, flying an instrument approach using weather radar down to a 0.75nm decision.
I don't think it;s the type of flying, ie long haul, short haul, heli's, fixed wing, I think anyone can feel tired from the job they do. All we can do is to minimise the things likely to cause it.
Oh, and I think Obie (wan? Use the force?) If you only flew 380 hours a year. You've had an easy life I think. Probably nice to be siting pretty, up there on your throne, having never done any wrong, with your no doubt full salary pension
, which many guys these days will never see the likes of again. Lucky old sod!
Last edited by helimutt; 28th Dec 2008 at 11:21.
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Well, here's my point Obie (as some others also pointed out already), times have changed!
I'm flying commercially now for 10 years and have 6000 hours and well over 4000 landings. In my first couple of years of flying for a small commuter airline I flew about 300 hours a year. Now flying for one of the bigger low cost carriers I do at least 850 hours a year (880 last year). Now taking your calculations I can go for another 36 years x 850 = 30600 hours! Adding my already 6000 hours I come to the grand total of 36600 hours!! Assuming I last this long.
What people here are trying to make clear is, that it is no longer a job with perks and much deserved rest between flights. It is hard work to the max. Flighttime limitations used to be there for a guidance as it is called MAXIMUM flight times. Now this is seen by managers as a target to be cost effective and get their bonusses.
I personally think it is only a matter of time before a major accident will happen caused by fatigue. Problem is, it will just be taken out on the pilots for not taking enough rest. Private life doesn't count anymore. When you're home you should be in bed sleeping, preparing for your next flight.
This is of course a bit of an exaggeration, but I think most here will know what I'm talking about.
So to be honest Obie, your 17000 hours might have been impressive a while ago, but we're long past that era. And about getting another job?? Well, that might be better in another topic, jobs aren't as easy to get at the moment as they were and I definately don't want to be on the lower parts of any seniority list.
I'm flying commercially now for 10 years and have 6000 hours and well over 4000 landings. In my first couple of years of flying for a small commuter airline I flew about 300 hours a year. Now flying for one of the bigger low cost carriers I do at least 850 hours a year (880 last year). Now taking your calculations I can go for another 36 years x 850 = 30600 hours! Adding my already 6000 hours I come to the grand total of 36600 hours!! Assuming I last this long.
What people here are trying to make clear is, that it is no longer a job with perks and much deserved rest between flights. It is hard work to the max. Flighttime limitations used to be there for a guidance as it is called MAXIMUM flight times. Now this is seen by managers as a target to be cost effective and get their bonusses.
I personally think it is only a matter of time before a major accident will happen caused by fatigue. Problem is, it will just be taken out on the pilots for not taking enough rest. Private life doesn't count anymore. When you're home you should be in bed sleeping, preparing for your next flight.
This is of course a bit of an exaggeration, but I think most here will know what I'm talking about.
So to be honest Obie, your 17000 hours might have been impressive a while ago, but we're long past that era. And about getting another job?? Well, that might be better in another topic, jobs aren't as easy to get at the moment as they were and I definately don't want to be on the lower parts of any seniority list.
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Forget it guys. You're wasting your time.
I just read all of Obie's posts for the past three months and have concluded that he's a member of the "one-percent" crowd - guys who couldn't be more full of themselves if they ripped off their own arm and ate it.
Over the years all of us have flown copilot for one of these guys and avoided them ever after.
I just read all of Obie's posts for the past three months and have concluded that he's a member of the "one-percent" crowd - guys who couldn't be more full of themselves if they ripped off their own arm and ate it.
Over the years all of us have flown copilot for one of these guys and avoided them ever after.
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I think Obie is trying to wind you all up deliberately!
He sounds as if he is the sort of chap who would have Captain instead of Mr on his Credit Cards! Need I say more?
Regards
Mister Geezer (BTW - I have nodded off in flight too!)
He sounds as if he is the sort of chap who would have Captain instead of Mr on his Credit Cards! Need I say more?
Regards
Mister Geezer (BTW - I have nodded off in flight too!
)
Well, I've just checked my log book, considering you young turks seem to be put out, somewhat, that someone should question your modern day "wimpy standards"!
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...by the way, I forgot to tell you lot that I had some health problems that resulted in the loss of my first class medical at about the 30 year mark in my career.
After sorting that out over a couple of years I spent some 7 years doing back of the clock sim work until my first class medical was reinstated. Lost about 10 years there but kept my hand in with about another 3000hrs of sim work that I never bothered logging.
What kept me going?... loved the job and wasn't prepared to give it up without a fight, not like you lot who are in aviation... for what? You tell me!
You think tiredness is a problem in your career?
Try cancer!
After sorting that out over a couple of years I spent some 7 years doing back of the clock sim work until my first class medical was reinstated. Lost about 10 years there but kept my hand in with about another 3000hrs of sim work that I never bothered logging.
What kept me going?... loved the job and wasn't prepared to give it up without a fight, not like you lot who are in aviation... for what? You tell me!
You think tiredness is a problem in your career?
Try cancer!
ZbV
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Sad to hear that about the health. That really is my biggest concern in this business. That is, to lose the little paper that says Class 1. Cancer is something that has affected my immediate family so I am aware of the implications.
Regardless it was your intial post that prompted the less than polite replies from me and others. If you perhaps had rephrased what you wanted to say, well the replies could have been a bit different as well.
As for the industry. It is in shambles except a few and afr inbetween companies that still offer good work conditions and relative stability. Not what it was 10 years ago let alone 20 or 30.
Regardless it was your intial post that prompted the less than polite replies from me and others. If you perhaps had rephrased what you wanted to say, well the replies could have been a bit different as well.
As for the industry. It is in shambles except a few and afr inbetween companies that still offer good work conditions and relative stability. Not what it was 10 years ago let alone 20 or 30.
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Obie:
"What kept me going?... loved the job and wasn't prepared to give it up without a fight, not like you lot who are in aviation... for what? You tell me!"
--------------------------------------------
Sorry about the health issues, but why do you question everyone else's committment to the profession? You're not the only guy who's ever "loved the job".
You seem to look down on everyone else. For every guy that blows off and builds himself up at the expense of others, there's a hundred pilots who are better sticks, who done more, have more hours, etc. They just don't run their mouths about it, that's the difference.
"What kept me going?... loved the job and wasn't prepared to give it up without a fight, not like you lot who are in aviation... for what? You tell me!"
--------------------------------------------
Sorry about the health issues, but why do you question everyone else's committment to the profession? You're not the only guy who's ever "loved the job".
You seem to look down on everyone else. For every guy that blows off and builds himself up at the expense of others, there's a hundred pilots who are better sticks, who done more, have more hours, etc. They just don't run their mouths about it, that's the difference.
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And tell me Obie,
If you were doing 900 hrs a years; year on year, allowing for being off for a while, how many hours would you have by now?
The reality is that, at the worst, you never worked more than one third of what is being demanded of crews now a days.
You are highly arrogant in your dismissal of the crew involved and it is apparant that the big C you encountered was not related to your a55hole since you are a perfect specimen of one.
Murexway, I've been that soldier too. Cheers to you mate.
If you were doing 900 hrs a years; year on year, allowing for being off for a while, how many hours would you have by now?
The reality is that, at the worst, you never worked more than one third of what is being demanded of crews now a days.
You are highly arrogant in your dismissal of the crew involved and it is apparant that the big C you encountered was not related to your a55hole since you are a perfect specimen of one.
Murexway, I've been that soldier too. Cheers to you mate.
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I've never nodded off as a PPL, but have come close to leaving the freeway several
times. Massive caffeine does not seem to help, but a large dose of sugar will
keep me awake for hours. Like a couple of Life Saver rolls.
A 30 minute nap works wonders, if you have the time and a place.
times. Massive caffeine does not seem to help, but a large dose of sugar will
keep me awake for hours. Like a couple of Life Saver rolls.
A 30 minute nap works wonders, if you have the time and a place.
Last year I only did about 600 hrs, prior to that averaged about 850+, my company at the time scheduled 2 13:55 duty days with the last 2 at 11:55 hey it met the Cars, didn't mean I was a functioning human being.
Company's response when told we were fatigued, was a threat to get the AME to pull our medical.
Company's response when told we were fatigued, was a threat to get the AME to pull our medical.
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You lot still don't get it, do you?
It's not about me and my career, it's about you, enjoying the job and appreciating how fortunate you are to be in the position you're in!
And most of you bomb out badly because on your own admittance you don't enjoy the job, complain all the time and obviously don't appreciate what you've got!
So, why do it?
It's not about me and my career, it's about you, enjoying the job and appreciating how fortunate you are to be in the position you're in!
And most of you bomb out badly because on your own admittance you don't enjoy the job, complain all the time and obviously don't appreciate what you've got!
So, why do it?
ZbV
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Fortunate or not and by who's measure?
Fatigue is a big issue these days and it is you Obie who does not get it. Not the same job it was 20 years ago. Obviously the Captain of that flight had a serious health issue, the sleep Apnea. For the FO the condition certainly was not that. He was most certainly fatigued. Would be nice to see what he flew and the rotations and times in the year preceding to the incident. I am qurious about the sleep apnea as well. How common is this with pilots. I know 2 pilots personally who lost their medicals becaues of the illness and know of 3 more, all long haul pilots. Could this be something that is work related or partially caused by the job?
I repeat: I work to live and not live to work. It's a job. Enjoy flying as much as I ever did, but I hate to see where this industry is going.
Now Obie, be a good boy and take your pills and try to get it that its not the same cup of tea anymore.
Fatigue is a big issue these days and it is you Obie who does not get it. Not the same job it was 20 years ago. Obviously the Captain of that flight had a serious health issue, the sleep Apnea. For the FO the condition certainly was not that. He was most certainly fatigued. Would be nice to see what he flew and the rotations and times in the year preceding to the incident. I am qurious about the sleep apnea as well. How common is this with pilots. I know 2 pilots personally who lost their medicals becaues of the illness and know of 3 more, all long haul pilots. Could this be something that is work related or partially caused by the job?
I repeat: I work to live and not live to work. It's a job. Enjoy flying as much as I ever did, but I hate to see where this industry is going.
Now Obie, be a good boy and take your pills and try to get it that its not the same cup of tea anymore.