ICAO Language Proficiency Tests
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Korean and Chinese aviation authorities conduct ICAO tests to laughable standards. We have both local and some expat pilots with atrocious command of English pass with level 6 simply because they study by rote all the tests. Then we have people with excellent command of English coming away with a mere 4 or 5 simply because of their accent or some hesitation during the test ( they have not mugged up on the questions/answers, sure they have some hesitation at some strange questions ). So we have level 6 pilot missing almost all ATC clearances ( ATCers have to repeat several times ) and miscopying/misunderstanding instructions. Competent pilots with good command of English but only level 4/5 by those tests fly with nary a problem with ATC in Europe, the US or even down under. The authorities need to do better than that.
And therin lies the problem. Different authorites applying different standards. In HKG, the test is conducted by a native English speaker and the standard to acheive level 6 is very high. I doubt that this is the case in Beijing. However, it does seem to be a serious attempt to improve safety.
My test is in three weeks. Fingers crossed!
My test is in three weeks. Fingers crossed!
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Korean and Chinese aviation authorities conduct ICAO tests to laughable standards.
Mind you, at a previous ICAO delegation meeting back in 2003, it was explicitely stated that nations with English as the first language should put their hands up to offer assistance to nations where English was not the first language (both financially and logistically). I seriously doubt if there's been any of this help going around.
Join Date: May 2005
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dear Ignition
You have been overridden.
The message to Hetfield should be:
Ebbawoi zum Spatzl.
Or in plain language 'Gehst ebba zum Spatzal'.
Of course this works only close to bavaria and has to be treated as level 8.
The message to Hetfield should be:
Ebbawoi zum Spatzl.
Or in plain language 'Gehst ebba zum Spatzal'.
Of course this works only close to bavaria and has to be treated as level 8.
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Level 4 extensions
I have been known within not too distant past to work as an English language examiner for the ICAO test. Extensions are indeed possible in some states, but it is down to the individual CAA to instigate an exemption plan that will assure compliance by the extended date (currently looking like 2011). DO NOT take this as a given!!! There are CAAs in the world who have not adopted the exemptions and therefore you could find in March 08 that your licence is suspended for all international activities - not a nice thought! If in doubt, check it out.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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What a disaster if everybody fail this NEW exam.
I have been Cpt on longhaul for 9 years flying all around the earth and a bunch of paperscratchers will dictate if I am or not able to do my job.
I passed all the exams to get my ATPL (old fashion with astronav) including International Radio Q and ATPL English test and these Deskkeepers are just telling me I've got to pass their F...... test OR I wil NOT FLY ANYMORE.
I suggest we all ban this new attempt of these non flying technocrats to lead our profession.
I have been Cpt on longhaul for 9 years flying all around the earth and a bunch of paperscratchers will dictate if I am or not able to do my job.
I passed all the exams to get my ATPL (old fashion with astronav) including International Radio Q and ATPL English test and these Deskkeepers are just telling me I've got to pass their F...... test OR I wil NOT FLY ANYMORE.
I suggest we all ban this new attempt of these non flying technocrats to lead our profession.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Blimey Bruce! I'm a Brit pilot been flying 30 years and now on Sunday a bunch of Aussies (http://www.relta.org/) are going to test my use of the Queen's English. And no poofters.
Join Date: Mar 2007
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English is my first language. Now and again I block on a certain words for about 1 - 4 seconds because I stutter. In all past flying tense/emergency situations I have spoken competently and fluently. In a test environment with your license and future lying ahead of you my fluency wont be as good. I would say in normal speech I speak 80 – 100 % fluently
I know and can confidently say that I will always be able to understand and get my message across the radio without compromise of safety.
So now will this destroy my passion for aviation? No. I haven't been for the dreaded test yet. They want to suspend/revoke my license because im slightly disadvantaged by not being as fluent as everybody else???
I know and can confidently say that I will always be able to understand and get my message across the radio without compromise of safety.
So now will this destroy my passion for aviation? No. I haven't been for the dreaded test yet. They want to suspend/revoke my license because im slightly disadvantaged by not being as fluent as everybody else???
Join Date: Oct 2003
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http://bigmag.co.uk/plane/q_a/level_tables/eng_table/
Check out this link - If you are only able to utter your name, then work hard!!! If you can string words together in fits and starts and generally fit into Level 2 then still work hard!!! If you may fit into the Level 3 criteria, check with your employer or authority to see if you have an extension (if not then work hard, if you do then why not also work hard and aim for Level 5 by 2011 - certainly dont put it off until 2010!).
My advice is to speak with, and listen to as many fellow crews as possible, maybe take some lessons if you feel you need them, but generally just work on speaking as much English as possible.
Good luck to all!
Check out this link - If you are only able to utter your name, then work hard!!! If you can string words together in fits and starts and generally fit into Level 2 then still work hard!!! If you may fit into the Level 3 criteria, check with your employer or authority to see if you have an extension (if not then work hard, if you do then why not also work hard and aim for Level 5 by 2011 - certainly dont put it off until 2010!).
My advice is to speak with, and listen to as many fellow crews as possible, maybe take some lessons if you feel you need them, but generally just work on speaking as much English as possible.
Good luck to all!
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I know and can confidently say that I will always be able to understand and get my message across the radio without compromise of safety.
You don't have to speak the Queen's English, and if you take a look through any of the tests that are around (RELTA, IAES, G-TELP, etc etc), you will notice that they are simply testing your proficiency to communicate to ATC competently in a variety of normal and non-normal situations.
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Seriously though, if I undrstand the UK CAA's double-speak, they are intending to 'grant' Level 4 ICAO to all UK FRTOL holders. I consider this an insult and I do not support the CAA's proposals as they currently stand.
I consider that native English speakers who hold FRTOLs should be entitled to make a self-declaration of Level 6 proficiency, with the usual penalties for false declaration.
Beagle, you have a good point there, and there is already a precedent here in France. The DGAC have stated that anybody who holds a DGAC CPL will be awarded level 6 ICAO French - and that is without taking any form of r/t test in French. I think therefore it is entirely reasonable that CAA FRTOL licence holders be given level 6 in English - especially as they will have actually had to take an r/t test to get the FRTOL.
The French precedent actually goes a little too far the other way. I am not a native French speaker but I did my training in France and hold a DGAC fATPL. Despite having done my CPL and IR tests with English r/t, I have been awarded level 6 French by the DGAC! Even more stupidly, they will not recognise my CAA FRTOL as even being equivalent to FCL1.200, and they insist that I take the ICAO English test!
I consider that native English speakers who hold FRTOLs should be entitled to make a self-declaration of Level 6 proficiency, with the usual penalties for false declaration.
Beagle, you have a good point there, and there is already a precedent here in France. The DGAC have stated that anybody who holds a DGAC CPL will be awarded level 6 ICAO French - and that is without taking any form of r/t test in French. I think therefore it is entirely reasonable that CAA FRTOL licence holders be given level 6 in English - especially as they will have actually had to take an r/t test to get the FRTOL.
The French precedent actually goes a little too far the other way. I am not a native French speaker but I did my training in France and hold a DGAC fATPL. Despite having done my CPL and IR tests with English r/t, I have been awarded level 6 French by the DGAC! Even more stupidly, they will not recognise my CAA FRTOL as even being equivalent to FCL1.200, and they insist that I take the ICAO English test!
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@Ignition Override
There were some strange gals/guys in the EU who realy want to eliminate the name "Ebbelwoi" (to be exact - Apfelwein).
They lost
There were some strange gals/guys in the EU who realy want to eliminate the name "Ebbelwoi" (to be exact - Apfelwein).
They lost
Join Date: Jan 2005
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FOK,
Seriously, I've done my share of technical translation and the word count French/English or English/French always comes out about 30% + for the French. My, admittedly more limited, knowledge of Spanish leads me to believe it's the same for Spanish.
Let me stick my neck out, and say that, for communication, French and probably Spanish, are less efficient than English. Of course, they're great for waffle, which is why French is always proclaimed to be the "diplomatic" language.
You should see some of the French aviation forums, and note how many words they use to say nothing....
Dunno. Depends on what you call English. The "Queen's English" is spoken only on the BBC. VERY little elsewhere in the UK.
I've never been able to determine whether the Spanish speak fast, or just have a lot of words to say to cover the English phrases?
Let me stick my neck out, and say that, for communication, French and probably Spanish, are less efficient than English. Of course, they're great for waffle, which is why French is always proclaimed to be the "diplomatic" language.
You should see some of the French aviation forums, and note how many words they use to say nothing....
By the way, is English the first language spoken by Australians?!
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Thanks for the link to the ICAO levels. Seems that they are using something quite similar to the Morley intellibility scale. This was developed by Dr. Jane Morley and has been used for years by myself and the majority of ESL instructors for student evaluation.
There IS an American aviation training company with operations in Korea currently advertising for ESL instructors, so it seems that at least some outfits are taking this requirement seriously. Anyone know of any others out there besides FlightTrans?
English training is something I've done for over 11 years and, combined with my aviation experience, seems a good business match. Thanks!
There IS an American aviation training company with operations in Korea currently advertising for ESL instructors, so it seems that at least some outfits are taking this requirement seriously. Anyone know of any others out there besides FlightTrans?
English training is something I've done for over 11 years and, combined with my aviation experience, seems a good business match. Thanks!
Last edited by PA-28-180; 25th Nov 2007 at 05:35. Reason: Correct company name
regards... Blackadder