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Lufthansa Hamburg

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Lufthansa Hamburg

Old 23rd Apr 2008, 14:27
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Flight detent,
Is it not true that if a captain screws up the FO has a complicated CRM position and limited experinece to force a go-around?
Whilst I fully agree with your and others sentiments, that no-one should judge the crew, before actually knowing what went on (so I wont judge)
the quoted statement of yours is unbelievable. Please tell me your airline, so I can avoid sending my family along with you guys!
ANY FO, that has a problem with calling for a go-around when conditions warrant, is NOT competent enough to sit in the right seat, with my family in the back!! Period!

Rgds, MDD
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Old 24th Apr 2008, 08:15
  #22 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
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MDD: I do not really think there's need to get personal. FO (me) and captain position is not a symmetrical one and no amount of clasroom CRM will ever change that. Starting with the Los Rodeos tragedy we have learned about the need to mitigate the associated risks and it is now "assertivness" for FO and "leadership" for CP, thanks god.

To err is human and my grandpa used to say that intelligent people learn from their mistakes but the smart ones learn from the mistakes of others. While flying we do not have much playroom to make and learn from ours, so the second part is bloody important. With utmost respect to the great aviators you captains are, sharpness of your handling skills compared to a recently trained 25 y FO is open for discussion (which I refuse to engage in!). The undisputable true benefit lies with your experience, personal maturity and operational judgement. As a team we need to utilize the best tools for the job at hand. If situation requires a stop-guard, it is the captain who is better equipped for the job (which does not say that the FO is inable to do so!) and faster to act; on occasions time does count.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68y-vZNtd7s

Severeal things probably went wrong even before the video starts. Please note that the touchdown is quite reasonable side-wise. It is possible that a CP would sweettalk the FO through such a stunt and forget to properly asess the LDA because he is burdened by fiddling with the sidestick. It is possible that the FO would be blasted away, his hormones flying throug the roof and fail to judge LDA as well. On the other hand, I believe it is guaranteed that a non-handling CP would have put a stop to it well before crossing the threshold.

If a situation requires the captiain to handle
- to a certain extent the crew looses the best guard there is
- is probably beyond the training scope of both pilots
- most likely should not have been allowed to develop in first place
- the combination of above places everybody on a very thin ice

I'll wait for the report to learn. Most eagerly to read about the published crosswind limits.

FD (the un-real)
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Old 24th Apr 2008, 08:30
  #23 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
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Originally Posted by Huck
Hand-flying skills are more important now than ever. You can't wish that away....
Acutally that was tongue in cheek comment, sorry to upset.Whoever would try ceratinly is grossly mistaken. Yet, no matter how superb the flying skills are they will not protect you from making a mistake. Czar 52 refers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:F...ldB52Crash.jpg And when the day comes, we need somebody to cry foul aloud. Handling skills do not enter the equation, assuming they have been well sorted out a long time ago as they should be.
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Old 24th Apr 2008, 08:40
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Flight Detent,

Sorry, didnt mean to get personal. I am an FO just as you, but if I had problems with calling for a go-around, I trust that you wouldn t send your family along with me too? I wouldn t, if I was you!

Rgds MDD
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Old 24th Apr 2008, 08:56
  #25 (permalink)  

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Point taken, in fact a wouldn't have phrased it better. I had the sour opportunity to call one and there is a lot of considerations before we do. That takes tiny amounts of time even which may be critical. CP through their vast experience enjoy nominated position that removes certain think-do compared to our job. That makes them better suited for the job. That's mine.
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Old 24th Apr 2008, 11:25
  #26 (permalink)  
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Sorry... I'm primed for a fight on this subject here at PPrune. My irony radar is broken.

As for the B-52 crash - I flew with a guy who had flown extensively with that captain for many years. He said that the deceased's hand-flying skills were the best - a true stick-and-rudder man. So the whole story is a true cautionary tale for all professional pilots.....
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Old 24th Apr 2008, 11:39
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As for the B-52 crash - I flew with a guy who had flown extensively with that captain for many years. He said that the deceased's hand-flying skills were the best - a true stick-and-rudder man. So the whole story is a true cautionary tale for all professional pilots.....
Although the story I heard is that he started to believe his own hype a little too much towards the end. He thought that his undeniably enviable skills were better than they actually were, with tragic results.

The best hand-flying skills in the world cannot argue with maths and gravity.
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Old 24th Apr 2008, 11:47
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Confusing ambition with ability = accidents

As for the Captain of the LH A320, the story as I understand it warrants his sacking, I am a nobody from down under however the story seems to have a terrile and familiar ring to it. The F/O in this case should never have been put in that situation by her Captain and he should have had the balls to do something about it. I wonder if some male ego was at play....yes I know, not possible

Disclaimer: the reports I received were from an industry source but not close enough to say without doubt. So my comments above are speculation based at best as are everyone elses.

J
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Old 24th Apr 2008, 13:16
  #29 (permalink)  
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Hand-flying skills
...
On an Airbus?



live 2 fly 2 live
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Old 24th Apr 2008, 15:08
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FD, thanks for that animation
Any idea what was the weather like ?
Would you know the RWY / Airport ?

... Any incident / accident report ?
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 07:01
  #31 (permalink)  

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Not quite. AB 14th FS Conference CD (OCT 07). Huge amounts of sudying material Irkutsk, Sochi, Naples among others. It is not a public domain type of data either. What I read in the included presentation, VOR/D changed at 12 NM to reciporcal visualb to shorten track with significant tailwind. 3000 fpm ROD at 1500 AFE; 192 kt / CF2 @ 500 ft; CF full at 140 ft / 173 kt now below profile CP takes over and lands.

FD (the un-real)

Check PM.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 10:28
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Well ... quite a few hint for a GA call, but as you say, the big problem was here: "CP takes over and lands"
Thanks for the PM, actually, I think I've seen already a copy of that CD somewhere around ... Let me have a look.
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Old 15th May 2008, 12:44
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CONF iture
... Any incident / accident report ?
The German report became available in the meantime, an English summary and link at:

http://avherald.com/h?article=402e5972/0028

Servus, Simon
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Old 15th May 2008, 14:45
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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The PF applied 28 degrees of rudder deflection? In my plane thats more than full rudder travel.
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Old 15th May 2008, 15:09
  #35 (permalink)  
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Tower reported winds at 28 knots from 300 degrees gusting 47 knots. The captain now inquired, how many go-around had been done and received the reply, that about 50% of approaches were abandoned in the last 10 minutes. ATC offered an approach to runway 33 at that point. The captain stated, that he wanted to attempt an approach to 23 first.
I find it strange to read this again. I always fail to understand why the decisions of other crews made at different times and with different types of aircraft should have an effect on your own decision. In Faro, a Martinair DC10 asked the same question and it ended badly as well..
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Old 15th May 2008, 17:04
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Just a small caveat

The usage of the expression "Female Pilot" grated on me a bit.

It is just that in German, Pilots do have Sex: (bad pun intended, sorry) The word in German is "Pilotin" for a woman instead of "Pilot" for a man.

The constant translation of "Pilotin" as "female Pilot" does annoy me, even if it is technically correct.

I'm not usually anally retentively PC, but I do firmly believe that in the Cockpit, there is (professionally) absolutely no difference between Men and Women.

Regards, OORW
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Old 15th May 2008, 18:49
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The AOM crosswind landing limits are 33/38, the actual value was 28/47. What more needs to be said?

The tanslation 'female pilote' is in fact not correct: it doesn't take account of the connotation it adds in the English language. In German however, not using 'Pilotin' (the female pilot) could lead to misinterpretation ('the pilot was masculine') in English it doesn 't. So no need to add a qualification that can be misconstrued here.

I am a frequent SLF interpreter, hence this second remark.

Fly safely.
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Old 15th May 2008, 18:56
  #38 (permalink)  

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You may find they are not limits; they are max demonstrated.
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Old 15th May 2008, 19:00
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Yes Fantom, you re right, they are not limits, but letting a relatively inexperienced FO demonstrate a higher limit of this magnitude seems like stretching it too far.
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Old 15th May 2008, 19:02
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True but wonder why does the LH ops manual disregard or allow the gusts - brave company that disregards the max demonstrated crosswinds...

The fact that at many points two people seem to have been flying the aircraft is interesting in the context of a side stick fly-by-wire ac. Would that happen on a conventional set of controls or would the LHS have just taken control?
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