Balpa membership and BA
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del -
= Tandem Rotor = Oxymoron, (or actually, just the moron)
Many have tried, and been pushed hard back down again by the industrial muscle of BALPA and BACC!!! Read Hulko's post, talk to GSS, Dan, BACX pilots....
Dead right, and the problem is that the relevant group only ever includes mainline BA pilots who have a boundary fence up to prevent any other group joining them.
Dead right again, and I'm sure that BA will get theirs.
Juan -
Dead right; but it's difficult when BACC not only won't assist but actively block you, even though, as Hulko says, you work for the same Company!
somebody comes along with a bit of common sense
(Quite why many pilots don't want to get themselves UP to where the "fat cats" are has always amazed me).
When a group of pilots get together to form an association to protect their collective interests they are only as good as their unity and what they put into looking after their interests.
You all get what you deserve.
Juan -
If you don't like BALPA you don't have to be part of it - if you are part of it, then be active within it.
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Hulko - what an excellent post. what a brilliant comparison to Britannia and how things should be done and how things could have been done within poor old shafted BACX. 
Don't believe I've ever heard a significant bad word about Thomson, interesting they never seem to get involved in most of these debates - BA could learn a lot from them. Mind you with the leadership BA have, is it any surprise?
(and I mean both Corporate and BACC leadership)
I don't think I've ever seen that twit Tandem as lost for words - he rarely responds to specifics, but I don't believe I've ever seen him as incoherent, worth it just for that alone, ILMAO!!
Don't believe I've ever heard a significant bad word about Thomson, interesting they never seem to get involved in most of these debates - BA could learn a lot from them. Mind you with the leadership BA have, is it any surprise?
(and I mean both Corporate and BACC leadership)
I don't think I've ever seen that twit Tandem as lost for words - he rarely responds to specifics, but I don't believe I've ever seen him as incoherent, worth it just for that alone, ILMAO!!
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Hulko tells it like it was.
Genuinely sorry to see all this dirty washing aired, but you have to admit, the BA peeps on here really do ask for it.
I think a separate union would be good for them, good for us, and good for the Industry. It might lead to a more harmonious atmosphere all round too, particularly if they had their own, locked forum.
WELL SAID HULKOMANIAC!!!!
: ok:
I think a separate union would be good for them, good for us, and good for the Industry. It might lead to a more harmonious atmosphere all round too, particularly if they had their own, locked forum.
WELL SAID HULKOMANIAC!!!!
: ok:
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I say Hulkomaniac,
I thought you were having a rant at my old title there
I was certain I hadn't mentioned Britannia
My whole wish in this whole sorry mess is that it can get sorted out and I can get on with my day to day job ferrying people around in an aluminum tube like the vast majority of the professional people in the skies. It is a dark cloud in an otherwise sunny industry.
Lets stop all the cr@p, I'm a BA pilot who flies exactly like any other bloke in an aircraft, sometimes I have a good day, sometimes a bad day. Sometimes a greaser, sometimes a touch firmer and, like all humans,I make mistakes and try to learn from them.
We all want more money for less work, who doesn't? So can we try and preserve what the management want to take from us and pull in the same direction.
All this spleen venting is a total waste of time (though it does make interesting and funny reading at times
)
I thought you were having a rant at my old title there
I was certain I hadn't mentioned Britannia
My whole wish in this whole sorry mess is that it can get sorted out and I can get on with my day to day job ferrying people around in an aluminum tube like the vast majority of the professional people in the skies. It is a dark cloud in an otherwise sunny industry.
Lets stop all the cr@p, I'm a BA pilot who flies exactly like any other bloke in an aircraft, sometimes I have a good day, sometimes a bad day. Sometimes a greaser, sometimes a touch firmer and, like all humans,I make mistakes and try to learn from them.
We all want more money for less work, who doesn't? So can we try and preserve what the management want to take from us and pull in the same direction.
All this spleen venting is a total waste of time (though it does make interesting and funny reading at times
)
Last edited by wobble2plank; 20th Apr 2008 at 16:31.
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Why is the BACC effective?
"It seems to me to be glaringly obvious that the reason BA pilots enjoy such (relatively) good T&Cs, is NOT because we ever claim to be better pilots than anyone else, (We aren't - though others have said to me we occupy a narrower 'spread' of ability) but purely because union representation is extraordinarily strong within the company. I don't know the figures, but I would be very surprised if membership didn't run to around 96%?"
This is undoubtedly true but it's that classic chicken & egg problem. Having been an active CC member I know how hard it is to get pilots to pull together (can't even be a*sed to fill in a questionaire the CC put out, but can bang on in the crew room about what they want) but yes one reason is undoubtedly the perceived BA Bias.
Chris Darke was trying to change that, with some success, but was ousted in a BA Coup. Look what's just happened again, another BA coup.
of course BA pilots provide the lions share of the money (1% of bigger salaries & 96%+ membership) so of course they expect to be heard & they sure are but their CC is well organised & effective. however, we asked for their help on an interrelated matter some years ago & little was forthcoming - not considered in their interests presumably - although what subsequently came about proved that it was. Some of their current troubles may have been eased if they had.
I also remember when one regional carrier was fighting draconian management & BALPA was lobbying parliament over the £1million pension cap. When pointed out that most of my guys would kill for that problem, they could not see the irony. We had one overworked negotiator who performed miracles but where was the weight of the union? Behind BA & the pension issue. It's hard to rev up more membership when pilots see such blatant bias.
This is undoubtedly true but it's that classic chicken & egg problem. Having been an active CC member I know how hard it is to get pilots to pull together (can't even be a*sed to fill in a questionaire the CC put out, but can bang on in the crew room about what they want) but yes one reason is undoubtedly the perceived BA Bias.
Chris Darke was trying to change that, with some success, but was ousted in a BA Coup. Look what's just happened again, another BA coup.
of course BA pilots provide the lions share of the money (1% of bigger salaries & 96%+ membership) so of course they expect to be heard & they sure are but their CC is well organised & effective. however, we asked for their help on an interrelated matter some years ago & little was forthcoming - not considered in their interests presumably - although what subsequently came about proved that it was. Some of their current troubles may have been eased if they had.
I also remember when one regional carrier was fighting draconian management & BALPA was lobbying parliament over the £1million pension cap. When pointed out that most of my guys would kill for that problem, they could not see the irony. We had one overworked negotiator who performed miracles but where was the weight of the union? Behind BA & the pension issue. It's hard to rev up more membership when pilots see such blatant bias.
It may also be worth a thought that if Balpa and the BACC can't even get the wholehearted support of the majority of British pilots due to the fact that Balpa is not "BA pilots" and pilots are not all Balpa members, then the public (on an average wage of 25 000K) will find it hard to be sympathetic if industrial action was felt necessary.
Presumably if openskies were to employ pilots, then Balpa would want them to apply for membership to plump up it's coffers, or would they decline all membership applications? No conflict of interest there then.
Presumably if openskies were to employ pilots, then Balpa would want them to apply for membership to plump up it's coffers, or would they decline all membership applications? No conflict of interest there then.
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Chris Darke was trying to change that, with some success, but was ousted in a BA Coup. Look what's just happened again, another BA coup.
It may also be worth a thought that if Balpa and the BACC can't even get the wholehearted support of the majority of British pilots due to the fact that Balpa is not "BA pilots" and pilots are not all Balpa members, then the public (on an average wage of 25 000K) will find it hard to be sympathetic if industrial action was felt necessary.
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Differences in opinion about what happened in the past....
Well done boys for watering the arguments down again into a pissing contest.
If everyone thinks that negotiations/company strategies/deals etc are that transparant to rationalize how 'bad' the BACC is in a couple of lines need to have their heads checked.
For me a couple of things are sure:
(being ex-ezy and current ba) A big Union membership and a strong set of clever individuals on the Company Council won't harm your case.
Wether you like it or not, what happens at BA WILL influence your T&C's in the medium/long term. Just a simple fact of economics.
So many things are changing in the aviation landscape that it's almost hard to keep with.
As a simple BA pilot, I work very hard for my company and for that I expect to be appropriately rewarded. Many friends are in completely different companies with their different reasons for being there. I won't digress into a slanging match with people that have axes to grind.
Most of us just get on with it and do not get involved much with party politics. The back office strategies of a massive union like BALPA will not be understood by me anyway, never ever.
Btw, in EZY I definitely felt the backing of BALPA and the EZY CC to drive T&C's up to a sensible level. Truth hurts... but we seem to be very able slagging others off instead of taking actions ourselves to improve our own companies.
I count myself in that category. I have the utmost of respect for anyone who will stand to be a union rep and genuinely tries to make a difference.
Well done boys for watering the arguments down again into a pissing contest.
If everyone thinks that negotiations/company strategies/deals etc are that transparant to rationalize how 'bad' the BACC is in a couple of lines need to have their heads checked.
For me a couple of things are sure:
(being ex-ezy and current ba) A big Union membership and a strong set of clever individuals on the Company Council won't harm your case.
Wether you like it or not, what happens at BA WILL influence your T&C's in the medium/long term. Just a simple fact of economics.
So many things are changing in the aviation landscape that it's almost hard to keep with.
As a simple BA pilot, I work very hard for my company and for that I expect to be appropriately rewarded. Many friends are in completely different companies with their different reasons for being there. I won't digress into a slanging match with people that have axes to grind.
Most of us just get on with it and do not get involved much with party politics. The back office strategies of a massive union like BALPA will not be understood by me anyway, never ever.
Btw, in EZY I definitely felt the backing of BALPA and the EZY CC to drive T&C's up to a sensible level. Truth hurts... but we seem to be very able slagging others off instead of taking actions ourselves to improve our own companies.
I count myself in that category. I have the utmost of respect for anyone who will stand to be a union rep and genuinely tries to make a difference.
h solo
"No it's not really worth a thought. It's been said a hundred times before, but I'll say it again. BA pilots don't expect or need the sympathy or support of the public."
do you really think that?
I think I detect arrogance of Olympian proportions.
you must be the world's favorite idiot
do you really think that?
I think I detect arrogance of Olympian proportions.
you must be the world's favorite idiot
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BA Management
If you pilots cannot see that this thread is being spun by BA management you are very short sighted. I would suggest this matter is suspended until the end of the BA dispute. When the matter is won, then please contact your union over this under representation.Please close this thread.
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Hecksevenor. We have unity within our ranks and the support of other associations across the world, frankly, public opinion has nothing to do with the principal at stake, thanks for contributing.
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Just to be clear here, are you saying that Chris Darke did a better job as General Secretary than Jim McAuslan is doing?
hec7or has it entirely right - you clearly are:
the world's favorite idiot
sympathy or support of the public
It is sometimes quite difficult to discern whether BA management or BA pilots are better at making their company and their product, their so-called 'brand' a total laughing stock. One has to feel some sympathy for the rest of the employees, it's not so much being caught betyween a rock and a hard place as being caught between a mentally defective psychopath and a retard! I'll leave the allocation to others.
Just for the record wobble2plank me old, I rather think that Hulkomaniac was referring to TandemRotor with his naming convention of Wobblehead....but if the cap fits, by all means feel free.
Also btw, Hulkomaniac, that was a splendiferous post - there's not much that shuts down that fool Tandem as effectively as you did!
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Captain Jumbo,
Sorry but the word 'Wobble' pops out quite easily and it was quite easy to see who the intended was after a quick read but the dig was for fun, and no the cap doesn't fit.
Enjoy your flying
Sorry but the word 'Wobble' pops out quite easily and it was quite easy to see who the intended was after a quick read but the dig was for fun, and no the cap doesn't fit.
Enjoy your flying
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I see Hand Solo remains an admirable case study in why BA pilots deserve our support with his surgical analytical dissection and reasoned expositional argument, to wit:
Utter fool, representing other utter fools, no surprises where they're all heading.........
as M.Mouse seemed to infer -
No it's not really worth a thought. It's been said a hundred times before, but I'll say it again. BA pilots don't expect or need the sympathy or support of the public.
Utter fool, representing other utter fools, no surprises where they're all heading.........
as M.Mouse seemed to infer -
What a nasty, bitter and unpleasant person
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Wobble - really glad the cap doesn't fit; and please enjoy your own flying too!
Never really thought it did, happy to smile.
My commiserations for the mess your airline seems to be in - replacing the leadership on both sides seems to be a good way forwards.
Southernboy - great post, I know the syndrome to which you refer all too well, HS is certainly not representative of most of his peers, but is all too sadly typical of the BACC. As they sow, so shall they reap.
Oh well.
Silas - have you considered explaining Hand Solo's world view to the press, or should I get there first - such an ambassador for his company, for his union, for his cause.....he's probably BACC!
Never really thought it did, happy to smile.
My commiserations for the mess your airline seems to be in - replacing the leadership on both sides seems to be a good way forwards.
Southernboy - great post, I know the syndrome to which you refer all too well, HS is certainly not representative of most of his peers, but is all too sadly typical of the BACC. As they sow, so shall they reap.
Oh well.
Silas - have you considered explaining Hand Solo's world view to the press, or should I get there first - such an ambassador for his company, for his union, for his cause.....he's probably BACC!
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With ambassadors for their company such as Solo and Rotor, it's easy to see why BA pilots are so disliked and despised in the round. It's a pity, because some of my best friends are BA pilots, many of my ex colleagues are BA pilots, and the vast majority are good joes, just like you and me.
(Hey, I'll even smile and honk as I drive past the picket line - just don't ask for a donation!)
Lions led by donkeys....how can BACC manage to antagonise so many people?
Perception, presentation, history and behaviour - nowt else.
(Hey, I'll even smile and honk as I drive past the picket line - just don't ask for a donation!)
Lions led by donkeys....how can BACC manage to antagonise so many people?
Perception, presentation, history and behaviour - nowt else.
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'"Shutting down Tandem'??
Guys come on. Surely you know me better than that!
The funny thing is, none of these bitter rashers, who are so abusive on this ANONYMOUS FORUM, ever said a dicky bird to my face whilst I was working amongst them for 5 years!
Not a peep! Not a squeak!
Odd that isn't it?
And if they were brutally slapped down by the nasty BACC 'Stasi', (which they were not!) why don't they tell us what they did about it?
If you guys really are going to hijack YET ANOTHER thread, shall we deal in facts rather than the childish bitter abuse that has characterised your posts for all the years I can remember?
Guys come on. Surely you know me better than that!
The funny thing is, none of these bitter rashers, who are so abusive on this ANONYMOUS FORUM, ever said a dicky bird to my face whilst I was working amongst them for 5 years!
Not a peep! Not a squeak!
Odd that isn't it?
And if they were brutally slapped down by the nasty BACC 'Stasi', (which they were not!) why don't they tell us what they did about it?
If you guys really are going to hijack YET ANOTHER thread, shall we deal in facts rather than the childish bitter abuse that has characterised your posts for all the years I can remember?
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When are these BA pilots going to actually put their money where their mouth is and take some kind of action?
I have read a few threads here on PPRUNE and there is alot of talk (often from the same people who claim to be BA) on how people should not join open skies etc , support the BA fatpilots in order to protect their own terms etc. What you are doing is asking others to take action for you!! I have not seen any action from yourselfs! You are demanding others to make sacrifices by not joining OS but doing nothing but spouting hot air.
More action and less bu**s**t needed me thinks.
I have read a few threads here on PPRUNE and there is alot of talk (often from the same people who claim to be BA) on how people should not join open skies etc , support the BA fatpilots in order to protect their own terms etc. What you are doing is asking others to take action for you!! I have not seen any action from yourselfs! You are demanding others to make sacrifices by not joining OS but doing nothing but spouting hot air.
More action and less bu**s**t needed me thinks.