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Reality Check

Old 10th Apr 2008, 23:46
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Reality Check

Good article in the NYT about the disillusionment in store for young people who want to join our profession.

click here for full article

Sad but true.

PS If posted earlier my apologies.
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 00:46
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Major Disaster.

I've enjoyed my time but I would not go into it from scratch today, and I doubt many young people will either unless things improve - which they never seem to.

There you go 411a - who'se gonna crew your shiny Tristars, (or whatever they were meant to be) now? Wages low enough when the pilot lives off food stamps, are they? Go on, tell me they're too high, that a P1 must get paid the same as a Loader or a Steward or Stewardess - go on, I know you want to!

Or are you part of the lot that can't wait for flying to become like a gardner in California, likely to be from abroad and sending money home whilst sharing an appartment with loads of other gardners? (No disrespect intended to people in that position).
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 01:52
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Twenty days off a month?

Never seen anything approaching that in thirty six years.
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 09:22
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As a student pilot myself seeing these sorts of things makes me doubt what i'm doing to some degree. Luckily though being a pilot is one of the only things i think i'll be truly happy doing for the moment and i think thats what keeps a lot of us in this gig.

As bad as the pay may get or be reported as i still hear there are a lot of good opportunities out there for those of us willing to take the chance and i'd like to think that i won't regret taking the chance!
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 09:55
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My sibling works in the city. He takes home twice as much as I do now, and will eventually earn far more. However, he still sits down with me over a quiet beer and tells me what a great life I have chosen as a pilot.

The rat race sucks. Up at 5am EVERYDAY. Train and tube in cramp horrible conditions. A small walk to the office upon which entering to the same back stabbing, high pressured enviroment. After puttinng up with office life (and i do suspect a few moaners on this site have never had the misfortune to work in an office) for 9 hours (if you're lucky!) Its the same journey home to get enough sleep to start the next working day.

Yes; our T's and C's are not as good as they used to be. But look at other jobs. The world is run by accountants so cost cutting in all industries is happening. Fact. Its rare for a private sector company to transport employees in business!

We have a fantastic job. Its better than every job out there and we earn far more than average. Unless you make a major cock up you will leave your work behind at the park brake and in my mind that's worth a lot of cash!

Its Friday now and im off shopping without any queue's.
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 10:13
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I agree with you entirely TAP, but maybe we have got it better over here in the UK than the States...

A typical day had her up at 5 a.m., at the airport by 8 a.m., and making three flights spread out so that the last one landed about 10 p.m. Then it was wait for a hotel shuttle; sleep; get up again at 6 a.m.
Well this isn't even legal is it? Maybe it is in the States, but over here a typical day would be up at 5am, airport by 6am. Take off 7am. 4 sectors home by 3pm.

Parabellum said:
Twenty days off a month?
Never seen anything approaching that in thirty six years.
Who do you work for P? I have 12 days off this month which is about usual, plus annual leave. Still do 650hrs a year.

My brother is a teacher in a good private school and I earn more than him already. Sure he gets big holidays, but he works hard 6 days a week including evenings during term time. He is envious of my job.

Maybe its all what you make of it...
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 10:16
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While this job beats office work any day, it's also true that as well as Ts & Cs obeying the law of gravity, new guys and gals pay a huge sum upfront to get into the RHS and cannot look forward to a comfy final salary pension any more so we lose out at both ends of the life cycle of the career.

I'm not so sure about the middle bit either!
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 11:14
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Very often, if you enjoy doing what you do, pay doesn't matter. You take a hit financially just to be able to do what you love most. It's when reality eventually hits that you realise that you have to either start making a good living off what you do or pack it in and call it a day.

I don't know which is worse.

S.
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 11:29
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What is worst is when you find both the pay and the job satisfaction being erroded together. The modern management philosophy (not just in the airlines but generally) is 'if they aint scared for their jobs then they won't be operating at best efficiency'
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 14:47
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TAP eloquently puts what I think every time I read one of these threads: I'm in the ratrace, and wishing I'd not given up on the idea of flying as a career in my youth. 'Errosion of T&C' is not just part of your industry, it's symptomatic of the modern world - it sucks pretty much across the board.

Plenty of friends with airline jobs, and I'm still thinking about jumping. It's not all roses I know, but it does have it's good sides too.
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 15:01
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I agree TAP, but I can tell you I would advise a young person against going into the disfunctional life style that is aviation. I'm sure most of us got into this business because we once loved everything aviation, now it's a job and for me it's still the only job I ever wanted.
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 15:14
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When I left my previous company I had a long chat with our Director of Flight Operations who was, himself, shortly to retire.

He told me that if he had a son he would do everything in his power to steer him away from a career in aviation. Says it all I think. The good days are gone and they ain't coming back anytime soon.
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 15:18
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OK. T's and C's could improve. Was there ever a time when that wasn't true?

I've worked for a living, in the past.

Now I fly.

 
Old 11th Apr 2008, 15:22
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Devil Starting acareer in flying....

Careful guys. This is rapidly developing into a "grass is greener etc..." debate. Do what you want to do - regardless of the pay. Yes, some jobs demand sacrifices and others lesser rewards but to do that which you most enjoy is very fortunate indeed.

I was granted a permanent commission as a pilot in the Royal Air Force in 1961 at the age of 22 but turned it down at the very point of signing. Whisked of to Air Ministry to be told what a chump I was but then thanked for having saved them a great deal of money if I had dropped out later. Went into the finance industry, paid for my own PPL and never regretted anything.

If you find something you really want to do -DO IT!

Only pilots know that in the depths of a British winter they will rise above the clouds into blue sky and sunshine. You lucky b.........s.
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 15:26
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TAP

At last the voice of reason. Well said.

I spent years looking up at passing a/c and wished and prayed to be up there and i can wholeheartedly say that ive never once looked down wishing i was in that shiny office ive just flown over.

Yes T & C probably have come down but i still earn enough to live on and enjoy my free time.

All those who bemoan the supposed reduced T & C's ask yourself this. Would your airline be in business with oil and other associated cost at the price that they are if there isnt a little bit of give and take.

The problem is that managers are only after share price which goes up when costs are low and the workers only want to earn more for doing less (come on we all would) which drives down share price. Somewhere in the middle is the correct path.

That is not to say that the likes of FR arent taking the piss but i'd rather have an OECD pay rise rather than demand a big one that puts the long term viability of the business in doubt.

Some people have just got used to getting what they want and are having trouble adjusting to this brave new world of "you get a little if you give a little"........Ryanair excepting.

If i had kids would i want them to come into this game.......most definitely if its for the love of the job. If they want to earn a decent salary......of course. If they want to become rich.......not a chance
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 15:48
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Not necessarily a case of the grass being greener - I think the last quote from the girl that quit flying is very telling:

" “Normal job. Normal life,” she said. “I know I made the right decision.” "
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 16:28
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What is worst is when you find both the pay and the job satisfaction being erroded together. The modern management philosophy (not just in the airlines but generally) is 'if they aint scared for their jobs then they won't be operating at best efficiency'
Dont Hang up, that is symptomatic of all sectors of industry. It is just a case of your personal level of comfort at erosion on T&C's that makes you look elsewhere. Some people can comfortably live with high levels, others don't because of various circumstances.

I personally am very sensitive to changes in my T&C, not necessarily because of pay, but more of satisfaction and the like. Once a job starts to suck, I switch elsewhere where there are new things to learn and experience, hopefully with a bit of a raise and some nice non-monetary bennies included.

S.
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 18:18
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There are no great jobs left out there in any industry, especially right out of school. Gotta do what you love. All the roads are rocky, not just aviation.

rcl
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 18:41
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Nice to see an article that doesn't paint teh under-worked and over-paid picture. I don't think it's the MOST accurate view though. They looked at people from Mesa and Pinnacle. Those 2 regionals are widely known to have the pretty much the worst work rules and pay.

The industry certainly isn't as good as it could/should be, but I don't think it's all as bad as the NYT made it seem.
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Old 11th Apr 2008, 19:40
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Sounds like some of the newer Ryanair FOs fresh out of training with their £70,000 initial course and £25,000 type ratings will be enjoying a winter working outside of the industry at this rate.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322250

Are the skills learnt as a pilot transferable to other professions? I've heard of qualified people, dentists and the like moving back to their old careers, but what does 10 years spent on the flightdeck offer to other employers?
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