BA set to claim siginifcant damages from BALPA for 'damage to its reputation & brand'
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Originally Posted by PBL
Maybe if the key part of my workforce is choosing to engage in public conflict with me, maybe I had just better win that fight, whatever it takes.
Originally Posted by Human Factor
If "whatever it takes" is bankrupting your business, I'd think twice and perhaps consider a negotiated solution.
That is just basic dynamics of negotiation.
Originally Posted by Human Factor
If "whatever it takes" is bankrupting your business, I'd think twice and perhaps consider a negotiated solution.
Studi,
your moniker just about says it all. Stick around another twenty years in negotiation and you'll see what I mean.
PBL
Last edited by PBL; 10th Apr 2008 at 13:09.
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Just to be clear about one thing before letting you all get back to ... whatever... The original reference to EI was, I think, to a particular carrier which uses aircraft with an EI registration. That particular airline has a two letter airline code of its own - FR. (Hence in the post above the reference should be to the "FR model").
The airline whose two letter code is actually EI does have proper pension arrangements in place for its staff, including pilots.
The airline whose two letter code is actually EI does have proper pension arrangements in place for its staff, including pilots.
Mach 3
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Nobody likes the playground bully.
Seems to me that when an airline is as cavalier with the money its employees make for it (I mean £350 million in fines for price-fixing this year, how much in compensation because they can't open a new Terminal properly...whatever next?), it is always going to be difficult to advance an argument that employee wages are capping its profitability...unless, of course, by "employees", one means those "managers" responsible for the mess.
This strike derives its origin from an economic argument that, it would appear, no one on this site has had access to...because BA haven't released the figures.
Speaks volumes really.
Seems to me that when an airline is as cavalier with the money its employees make for it (I mean £350 million in fines for price-fixing this year, how much in compensation because they can't open a new Terminal properly...whatever next?), it is always going to be difficult to advance an argument that employee wages are capping its profitability...unless, of course, by "employees", one means those "managers" responsible for the mess.
This strike derives its origin from an economic argument that, it would appear, no one on this site has had access to...because BA haven't released the figures.
Speaks volumes really.
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The real underlying cause of all this lies with ticket prices. Greedy but intelligent individuals such as PBL are hell bent on selling tickets for an unsustainable price. To sustain such stupidity in the name of increasing profits for the equally greedy shareholders, managers free of any morals or scruples but very well paid, have decided to take on those keeping the whole thing moving. It isn't just flight crews it all departments.
These apparently intelligent but greedy individuals should they succeed will be able to reap the benefits of cheap flights flown on the backs of cheap labour making excessive profits until they die.
The point missed by those same apparently intelligent but greedy individuals is that this safety critical industry can only survive and maintain its attractiveness as long as it remains safe. Poorly paid, poorly motivated individuals are not what one wants on board unless you are accepting a much higher risk of not reaching your destination.
Human made machines are just as frail as humans themselves, add to that human factors and the reality is that 1,000's of things go wrong on a daily basis. 99.9% of the time, a highly motivated professional being paid what he fully deserves deals with the situation so well that must of you SLF weren't even aware of what happened.
To fools such as PBL and willy walsh this is then interpretated as such individuals being paid too much or their working conditions are too good or whatever.
PBL if you are such a strong advocate of BA's attitude and behaviour, go fly exclusively in Nigeria or indonesia. If you should survive the experience come back and then we can talk about your unsocial theories.
Safe flying costs money and I am not just talking about the ticket price.
There is also nothing worse than a pompous idiot.
These apparently intelligent but greedy individuals should they succeed will be able to reap the benefits of cheap flights flown on the backs of cheap labour making excessive profits until they die.
The point missed by those same apparently intelligent but greedy individuals is that this safety critical industry can only survive and maintain its attractiveness as long as it remains safe. Poorly paid, poorly motivated individuals are not what one wants on board unless you are accepting a much higher risk of not reaching your destination.
Human made machines are just as frail as humans themselves, add to that human factors and the reality is that 1,000's of things go wrong on a daily basis. 99.9% of the time, a highly motivated professional being paid what he fully deserves deals with the situation so well that must of you SLF weren't even aware of what happened.
To fools such as PBL and willy walsh this is then interpretated as such individuals being paid too much or their working conditions are too good or whatever.
PBL if you are such a strong advocate of BA's attitude and behaviour, go fly exclusively in Nigeria or indonesia. If you should survive the experience come back and then we can talk about your unsocial theories.
Safe flying costs money and I am not just talking about the ticket price.
There is also nothing worse than a pompous idiot.
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There is, as usual, a terrifying theme to these posts. You all want to "down" British Airways.
Thank God only the minority post on or read Pprune!
At all costs the pilots must win.
Go ahead and win. Bring BA to it's knees.
Best you start seeking employment elsewhere.
Good luck in your quest for the Golden Goose, you killed this one.
Thank God only the minority post on or read Pprune!
At all costs the pilots must win.
Go ahead and win. Bring BA to it's knees.
Best you start seeking employment elsewhere.
Good luck in your quest for the Golden Goose, you killed this one.
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I'll try some sums...
BA turn over £9 billion and make 10% using ~200(?) a/c.
OS plans to use 5 or 6(?) a/c...initially.
Lets say their management want to make a 20% margin....kudos to Ryanair for this nugget...although it would appear to have very little with the transportation of passengers from A to B.
All things being equal, the recent fines BA have had to pay would deliver the same "profit" that ~8 years of OS operation would deliver.
This isn't a zero-sum game as anyone who works in BA will tell you. (At Ryanair, it might be...but then again, with a margin like the above, thats debatable...)
That said, it sure as hell isn't about OS.
BA, of course, would have you believe it is....
BA turn over £9 billion and make 10% using ~200(?) a/c.
OS plans to use 5 or 6(?) a/c...initially.
Lets say their management want to make a 20% margin....kudos to Ryanair for this nugget...although it would appear to have very little with the transportation of passengers from A to B.
All things being equal, the recent fines BA have had to pay would deliver the same "profit" that ~8 years of OS operation would deliver.
This isn't a zero-sum game as anyone who works in BA will tell you. (At Ryanair, it might be...but then again, with a margin like the above, thats debatable...)
That said, it sure as hell isn't about OS.
BA, of course, would have you believe it is....
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Right, enough. Any and all posts from now on relating to the previous handbags-at-dawn spat will be deleted, so don't waste your or the moderators time; keep this thread on track, and ignore the semantics and the little personal history-lessons.
OK?
OK?
As noone has ventured to answer my question about total BA's pilot costs last year, I'll play a game of guesstimation.
First, I'll guesstimate that BA employs 3200 pilots.
Second, I'll guesstimate average BA's pilot annual gross pay as being one hundred thousand pounds (100 000 quids).
So total guesstimation of amount paid last year by BA to its pilots is 320 million pounds, while there are...
Voila!
And two more things:
First, I'd like someone with more knowledge of BA to review and revise my ill-informed figures.
Second, anyone still wishing to rant about pilots opposing market forces and running airline into ground, please integrate exorbitant poor-management-caused-fines into your rant, thank you.
First, I'll guesstimate that BA employs 3200 pilots.
Second, I'll guesstimate average BA's pilot annual gross pay as being one hundred thousand pounds (100 000 quids).
So total guesstimation of amount paid last year by BA to its pilots is 320 million pounds, while there are...
£350 million in fines for price-fixing this year
And two more things:
First, I'd like someone with more knowledge of BA to review and revise my ill-informed figures.
Second, anyone still wishing to rant about pilots opposing market forces and running airline into ground, please integrate exorbitant poor-management-caused-fines into your rant, thank you.
Controversial, moi?
AVERAGE pilot pay in BA is most definitely NOT £100,000 gross!
Regrettably it is the figure which always seems to spring to people's minds and especially the downmarket newspapers.
I am sorry but I think it is totally inappropriate to be discussing what I or any of my colleagues earn. A few years ago we were benchmarked against comparable European airlines and we were found to be way below the line in general. A successful negotiation and restructuring of our pay scales brought us up to benchmark or thereabouts.
Pilot costs are a fact of life. I am privileged to be in a career where I have eventually reached a very comfortable salary. Just like surgeons, doctors, lawyers, judges and numerous other very experienced people and also after years of hard work and hard won experience. I am also doing something which, as a captain of a public transport airliner, carries a great deal of responsibility.
For some reason everybody and his dog wishes to start an airline. Heaven knows why when it is a notoriously difficult business to even make a profit from let alone a large profit. The likes of Ryanair and, to a lesser extent, Easyjet in the UK have forced airlines to cut costs or sink. In doing so the product (air travel) has suffered and will continue to plummet downwards in a race to the bottom. Legacy carriers such as BA, like all big and established large organisations do not adapt well and often sink in the process.
BA may well go bust. If it does the experience of air travel with carriers that are left will not improve but you can bet your bottom dollar the prices charged will rapidly increase.
Regrettably it is the figure which always seems to spring to people's minds and especially the downmarket newspapers.
I am sorry but I think it is totally inappropriate to be discussing what I or any of my colleagues earn. A few years ago we were benchmarked against comparable European airlines and we were found to be way below the line in general. A successful negotiation and restructuring of our pay scales brought us up to benchmark or thereabouts.
Pilot costs are a fact of life. I am privileged to be in a career where I have eventually reached a very comfortable salary. Just like surgeons, doctors, lawyers, judges and numerous other very experienced people and also after years of hard work and hard won experience. I am also doing something which, as a captain of a public transport airliner, carries a great deal of responsibility.
For some reason everybody and his dog wishes to start an airline. Heaven knows why when it is a notoriously difficult business to even make a profit from let alone a large profit. The likes of Ryanair and, to a lesser extent, Easyjet in the UK have forced airlines to cut costs or sink. In doing so the product (air travel) has suffered and will continue to plummet downwards in a race to the bottom. Legacy carriers such as BA, like all big and established large organisations do not adapt well and often sink in the process.
BA may well go bust. If it does the experience of air travel with carriers that are left will not improve but you can bet your bottom dollar the prices charged will rapidly increase.
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This is really nothing to do with salaries.
It is about a work force that has no faith in its management.
It is about worker force that feels disempowered from being able to work effectively due to cost cutting.
For myself, I used to feel like someone that was able to solve problems and by so doing (a) deliver a service to the customers (b) operate safely and efficiently and hence (c) allow the company to make a profit.
But after several years of working for BA, I realised I no longer solved problems, but rather simply had to endure them.
I notice several people offering the point of view that pilots don't know anything about being a CEO and should therefore not qualified to have an opinion on how the business is run. This is a pathetic point of view.
At a very basic level, anyone in an organisation should try to have at least an outline understanding of the roles filled by others. But besides that, and much more to the point, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The workforce can *see* they are mismanaged, because the effects are right there in front of them.
Most of my former colleagues at BA are hard working, dedicated and intelligent, and more than capable of surviving, and prospering, without BA. Its only the stupid seniority system, endemic in this industry, that puts people in golden handcuffs and allows BA to retain its pilot workforce.
BA needs to actually engage its work force instead of treating them like the enemy. There's only so long you can do that before people start reciprocating, and thats what is happening now.
pb
It is about a work force that has no faith in its management.
It is about worker force that feels disempowered from being able to work effectively due to cost cutting.
For myself, I used to feel like someone that was able to solve problems and by so doing (a) deliver a service to the customers (b) operate safely and efficiently and hence (c) allow the company to make a profit.
But after several years of working for BA, I realised I no longer solved problems, but rather simply had to endure them.
I notice several people offering the point of view that pilots don't know anything about being a CEO and should therefore not qualified to have an opinion on how the business is run. This is a pathetic point of view.
At a very basic level, anyone in an organisation should try to have at least an outline understanding of the roles filled by others. But besides that, and much more to the point, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The workforce can *see* they are mismanaged, because the effects are right there in front of them.
Most of my former colleagues at BA are hard working, dedicated and intelligent, and more than capable of surviving, and prospering, without BA. Its only the stupid seniority system, endemic in this industry, that puts people in golden handcuffs and allows BA to retain its pilot workforce.
BA needs to actually engage its work force instead of treating them like the enemy. There's only so long you can do that before people start reciprocating, and thats what is happening now.
pb
Last edited by Capt Pit Bull; 11th Apr 2008 at 10:37. Reason: finger trouble
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Haven't read much of the thread, but:
My suggestion would be for BA crew to sue BA for damage to future employment prospects. After all, management are doing everything they can to damage the brand and the reputation of everyone involved.
My suggestion would be for BA crew to sue BA for damage to future employment prospects. After all, management are doing everything they can to damage the brand and the reputation of everyone involved.
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Airline Personnel Costs
Actually, £100K/pilot is about right if pension contributions and all other costs are included: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2006.pdf
But what this CAA table shows is that we are benchmarked pretty accurately. OK, BA pilots cost their company (slightly) more than at other UK airlines, but isn't that what you'd expect of a company operating by far and away the most comprehensive route network out of a country? Yes, we are paid more than Virgin pilots, but we fly up to 900 hrs a year, not 750 - standing by to be corrected by Virgin.
Interesting chart isn't it? EasyJet have the best-paid cabin crew outside BA. And I'm sure I could fit in a part-time job on Sales with Thomsonfly for that money!
But what this CAA table shows is that we are benchmarked pretty accurately. OK, BA pilots cost their company (slightly) more than at other UK airlines, but isn't that what you'd expect of a company operating by far and away the most comprehensive route network out of a country? Yes, we are paid more than Virgin pilots, but we fly up to 900 hrs a year, not 750 - standing by to be corrected by Virgin.
Interesting chart isn't it? EasyJet have the best-paid cabin crew outside BA. And I'm sure I could fit in a part-time job on Sales with Thomsonfly for that money!
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What reputation are we discussing damage of? Is that the one for an airline reputed to be top in the world for losing it's passenger's bags, top in europe for delays, known for arrogant and indifferent attitude toward it's customers. I mean just ask Michael Winner what he thinks of BA. Enough is enough the fiasco has to stop
If you want to talk about benchmarking the pilots pay , then how about the cabin crew ,with their massive overtime payments.As just about every long haul flight is late,the cabin crew £ clock is ticking until the engines shut down,and STILL ticking on arrival back into LHR whilst waiting for up to an hour for the crew bus! Now that needs sorting.
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CabinCrew pay
Frangatang - BA pilot or manager? I suspect the latter as a clear attempt to bring more division to the operation. Oh yes lets screw the cabincrew for their wages. BA cabincrew are paid fairly for the very professional contribution they make to the operation. It is their contract and there is nothing exhorbitant about this arrangement.
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cabin crew pay
Within BA there are different rules for different fleets regarding over-time payments. In my case the clock starts after 12 1/2 hrs. So very often the hour wait for a bus to disembark the aircraft does not trigger over-time. On the rare occassion when it does somebody somewhere within Waterworld has figured that financially the cost of over-time is cheaper than the cost of running an efficient operation and repairing a failing reputation.
To my pilot colleagues - good luck, you have my support.
To my management colleagues - time to take the eye mask (1st class) off and see what is really happening. A catalogue of disputes, legal action and now the t5 debacle. How ridiculous, immediately after the world watched t5 melt-down do you look when you announce you will sue a section of your employees for bringing the brand into disripute. You simply could not make this up.
I repeat other poster's messages. Sue and sack yourselves first.
To my pilot colleagues - good luck, you have my support.
To my management colleagues - time to take the eye mask (1st class) off and see what is really happening. A catalogue of disputes, legal action and now the t5 debacle. How ridiculous, immediately after the world watched t5 melt-down do you look when you announce you will sue a section of your employees for bringing the brand into disripute. You simply could not make this up.
I repeat other poster's messages. Sue and sack yourselves first.
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Cabin Crew BA are a mixed bag when it comes to pay.You have them leaving at LGW because they can do better elsewhere,half of them are now on the new contract which has a very low basic.Promotion to purser /csd wastes more company and personal time than FO to Capt.Sickness is high as there is no bidline and due to dubious arrangments with rostering some get good and some get crap rosters every month.When you consider there is one manager for every six csd"s it beggers belief how such an overstaffed system of managment exists these days.Overall they are a pleasant bunch and as long as they dont piss in my tea I wish them well with their strike and dont give a toss how much they earn.