More on UK Pilot Imports
Join Date: Jun 2000
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I am an Air 2000 pilot born and bred in England with only a British passport and I can tell you that the guv does not know what he is talking about because I spent quite some time operating Air 2000 757s out of Detroit and other US locations last winter. The planes were Air 2000 and on the British register and we did not have to have green cards or special visas or FAA atpls.
Goes to to show you how some people brag about knowing everything but in reality are just enthusiastic amateurs with grandiose ideas about their own importance. I would also advise anyone sending their cv to the guv to do some digging into his background, including recent enquiries into his credit problems with regard to Amex and the Clydesdale bank. Also check into a pre adoptive name used by him to register as a company secretary whilst using his current name as MD of the same company. Too many fishy things here to trust this jack of all trades.
Goes to to show you how some people brag about knowing everything but in reality are just enthusiastic amateurs with grandiose ideas about their own importance. I would also advise anyone sending their cv to the guv to do some digging into his background, including recent enquiries into his credit problems with regard to Amex and the Clydesdale bank. Also check into a pre adoptive name used by him to register as a company secretary whilst using his current name as MD of the same company. Too many fishy things here to trust this jack of all trades.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: London U.K
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Chutney that sounds very positive, who were you operating for and what routes were you flying ?. Our A/C will be dry leased and obviously on the US register, I am still however at a loss as to why it apears to be a problem for Excel to get guys out there and not A2K/JMC + others. I understand that JMC pilots are flying 320's on the US register out of Boston this winter for Ryan. Anyone from JMC or know anyone from JMC please enlighten me as to what was realy required, so I can get my facts straight. I believe a few of our guys hold US ATPL's does this make any difference ?.
Best rgds
Best rgds
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: West Sussex
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OzDude. 'Any pilot with a reasonable level of intelligence' DOES know that the IPA/IPF is now a union and has been campaigning very actively on the flagging out issue for several years in harness with BALPA. They have swamped MPs, John Prescott and the DETR
with a barrage of letters and objections, but it seems to be a case of 'why you no rissen'. Thanks for the plug Guvnor!
with a barrage of letters and objections, but it seems to be a case of 'why you no rissen'. Thanks for the plug Guvnor!
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Looking thru this thread it seems that the old hypocricies are coming out again. There is a lot of discussion here regarding specific aircraft lease arrangements, registration, etc. etc, but lets face it, all anyone is really interested in is the jobs flying said aircraft, wherever they be and whatever registration they are!! There are a number of CAA licenced pilots whinging about the fact that aircraft that are being wet leased in are being flown by non CAA licenced crew (God forbid!!), and are, as a result taking jobs that are "rightfully" theirs. Perhaps then, leaving the leasing issue aside for a few moments,it would be fair if all the foreign carriers that employ expatriate British flightcrew (and there are still many employing a considerable number of Brits out there)should revolk their validations and work permits and employ only homegrown or other foreign national talent instead, with all the said expats flocking home to take up jobs here?? Do I smell a double standard? As long as aircraft tech state and crew competance are acceptable then I see no problem with short term leasing in. It only becomes a problem if airlines start to become "virtual" companies, leasing in their entire fleet. Also, before anyone says it, lets not play the "foreign operators aren't as safe" card. Many foreign operators work to standards as high, and sometimes higher than CAA, (and have better accident/incident stats). Lastly, in case you are wondering, I have no axe to grind. I hold CAA & FAA licences, and have worked for both UK and overseas companies.
Join Date: Dec 2000
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All well and good , but can i have my noney back for my uk atpl, cos i just didnt need it after all.
What i want to know is : Have all these foreign pilots ever done touch and goes in a 172 on the isle of white with an anal retentive RAF hasbeen for their gft , 'cos if they havent they shouldnt be going to corfu.
and while im at it the correct word for the number 0 is zero not "oh".Until they stop this abuse of our airwaves they should be grounded, and not allowed to bring in any more nylons or chocolate, or date our women while i'm out fighting the hun in the hold at some random greek island, and er........ad nauseum
[ 23 August 2001: Message edited by: batty_boy ]
What i want to know is : Have all these foreign pilots ever done touch and goes in a 172 on the isle of white with an anal retentive RAF hasbeen for their gft , 'cos if they havent they shouldnt be going to corfu.
and while im at it the correct word for the number 0 is zero not "oh".Until they stop this abuse of our airwaves they should be grounded, and not allowed to bring in any more nylons or chocolate, or date our women while i'm out fighting the hun in the hold at some random greek island, and er........ad nauseum
[ 23 August 2001: Message edited by: batty_boy ]
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Everyone seems to want to knock Air Atlanta but I don't see any British companies willing or able to do what they do.
Air Atlanta Icelandic was started by a pilot who had the guts and vision to put his own money where his mouth was and go out and chase business wherever it may be. Most of the work they do in the UK market is seasonal. You fail to acknowledge that no company in the UK is willing or able to chase this competition. If you lot want the jobs, then try to do something positive about it rather than whinging.
Air Atlanta Icelandic was started by a pilot who had the guts and vision to put his own money where his mouth was and go out and chase business wherever it may be. Most of the work they do in the UK market is seasonal. You fail to acknowledge that no company in the UK is willing or able to chase this competition. If you lot want the jobs, then try to do something positive about it rather than whinging.
Join Date: Jul 1998
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This thread makes interesting reading, some of you have no problems with foreign pilots flying in the UK, some of you do, and some simply sit on the fence. It would horrify some of you to know the actual figures involved of foreign aircrew and foreign registrations operating in the UK this summer. Something else is that some of the crews are not just here for the summer, but are here on an ongoing basis. There is an advert looking for 767 crews in flight this week, and although the company concerned is not a US carrier they are still insistent upon either US citizenship, or residency, is this fair? FACT: I hold a UK ATPL, and 3 other professional licences including FAA, B737 TRI, with thousands of hours on type. The FAA has told me that in order to validate the B737 I need to do the following:
UK Licence to FAA
MEET THE REQUIRED EXPERIENCE.
FULL US ATPL GROUND SCHOOL (part 121)
FULL B737 GROUND SCHOOL COURSE.
B737 FLIGHT SIMULATOR AS REQUIRED.
FAA CHECK RIDE.
And if I wish to validate my TRI rating
FULL INSTRUCTOR GROUND SCHOOL.
FLIGHT TRAINING WITH A CFI.
CHECK RIDE.
B737 INSTRUCTOR CHECK RIDE.
NO TRE EXAMINER PRIVILAGES POSSIBLE.
After all this I can then fly a B737, and instruct in the simulator. (Assuming I can work there of course) By comparison this is my understanding of what a US pilot is required to do with similar qualifications.
USA Licence to UK validation
MEET THE REQUIRED EXPERIENCE.
SIT AN ABRIDGED AIR LAW EXAM.
PASS AN LPC.
Whilst I accept that the FAA licence is a little more practical based than the UK licence, and is a little faster to obtain, I ask you, is this a level playing field?
A previous contributor said that he had been flying in the US without going through the whole process. This is the case when flying UK registered aircraft, not so when it is US registered, crazy I know but that’s my understanding. Also not so when foreign pilots wish to fly UK registered aircraft. This will escalate to a point of no return if we do not collectively act on this very real problem now. Without any support from the government this will be difficult. The IPA deserves some serious support and recognition for their tremendous effort.
null
UK Licence to FAA
MEET THE REQUIRED EXPERIENCE.
FULL US ATPL GROUND SCHOOL (part 121)
FULL B737 GROUND SCHOOL COURSE.
B737 FLIGHT SIMULATOR AS REQUIRED.
FAA CHECK RIDE.
And if I wish to validate my TRI rating
FULL INSTRUCTOR GROUND SCHOOL.
FLIGHT TRAINING WITH A CFI.
CHECK RIDE.
B737 INSTRUCTOR CHECK RIDE.
NO TRE EXAMINER PRIVILAGES POSSIBLE.
After all this I can then fly a B737, and instruct in the simulator. (Assuming I can work there of course) By comparison this is my understanding of what a US pilot is required to do with similar qualifications.
USA Licence to UK validation
MEET THE REQUIRED EXPERIENCE.
SIT AN ABRIDGED AIR LAW EXAM.
PASS AN LPC.
Whilst I accept that the FAA licence is a little more practical based than the UK licence, and is a little faster to obtain, I ask you, is this a level playing field?
A previous contributor said that he had been flying in the US without going through the whole process. This is the case when flying UK registered aircraft, not so when it is US registered, crazy I know but that’s my understanding. Also not so when foreign pilots wish to fly UK registered aircraft. This will escalate to a point of no return if we do not collectively act on this very real problem now. Without any support from the government this will be difficult. The IPA deserves some serious support and recognition for their tremendous effort.
null
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Freda - actually, it was his wife's money! 
Dirty Harry - don't forget that this doesn't just affect airlines ... there are also a sizeable number of US registered bizjets based in the UK and elsewhere in Europe.
On top of that, there are a few carriers - such as MK Airlines which are to all intents and purposes UK based but which continue to fly off of third world flags of convenience with poor maintenance and safety oversight that allow them to undercut EU cargo operators (such as CargoLion), putting them out of business.
Dirty Harry - don't forget that this doesn't just affect airlines ... there are also a sizeable number of US registered bizjets based in the UK and elsewhere in Europe.
On top of that, there are a few carriers - such as MK Airlines which are to all intents and purposes UK based but which continue to fly off of third world flags of convenience with poor maintenance and safety oversight that allow them to undercut EU cargo operators (such as CargoLion), putting them out of business.
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Dirty Harry,
Let's look at it this way, a Pilot from Airline A has a B 757/767 type rating on their FAA ATP certificate and is a check airman with thousands of hours as pilot in command of both at his/or her current FAA certificated part 121 carrier in the US. Now this person decides to take a Pilot position with another FAA certificated part 121 carrier in the US, do they just sign on? No they don't, they must sith through training for the company they are going to work for, aircraft ground school, flight training, check ride, etc, etc, etc... as you listed. It could take anywhere from a month, to a couple or more months to complete this process for anyone US citizen or not, regardless of if they are currently doing the same job for another carrier or not. It would be nice if we could have one worldwide system and set standards accepted by all, but we all know it just is politically possible at this time.
Let's look at it this way, a Pilot from Airline A has a B 757/767 type rating on their FAA ATP certificate and is a check airman with thousands of hours as pilot in command of both at his/or her current FAA certificated part 121 carrier in the US. Now this person decides to take a Pilot position with another FAA certificated part 121 carrier in the US, do they just sign on? No they don't, they must sith through training for the company they are going to work for, aircraft ground school, flight training, check ride, etc, etc, etc... as you listed. It could take anywhere from a month, to a couple or more months to complete this process for anyone US citizen or not, regardless of if they are currently doing the same job for another carrier or not. It would be nice if we could have one worldwide system and set standards accepted by all, but we all know it just is politically possible at this time.
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FREDA - absolutely! Of course it does help when funding comes from family rather than having to source it from outside. Incidentally, I set up their offshore crew management operation - which was subequently taken over by ACE when I moved to Africa - so I know the modus operandi there pretty well.
Join Date: Jul 1998
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MERT –
Thank you for your valid comments and of course your statement regarding full training on joining an airline is correct. However, my post referred solely to obtaining a US licence and B737 type rating none of which involved any company check rides or training at all. Upon completion of the FAA requirements, the company requirements would then follow, assuming I could get employment in the first place, which seemed extremely unlikely. In the end I could see no benefit to obtaining a US ATP without the possibilities of being able to work with it.
Thank you for your valid comments and of course your statement regarding full training on joining an airline is correct. However, my post referred solely to obtaining a US licence and B737 type rating none of which involved any company check rides or training at all. Upon completion of the FAA requirements, the company requirements would then follow, assuming I could get employment in the first place, which seemed extremely unlikely. In the end I could see no benefit to obtaining a US ATP without the possibilities of being able to work with it.
Union Goon
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Dirty harry,
You are correct, but what is the point of what you are saying because the required courses at all US airlines are the full ATP and Type rating given under the company umbrella, so you would still have to do the same amount of work.
After the Eastern Strike and the hiring of unqualified replacements in "short courses" there are NO SHORT COURSES ANYWHERE IN THE US. IF I get out of the cockpit of a 737 for airline x, I must still go through the ENTIRE program for airline y as a US citizen flying for a US airline. What you are asking for is a shortcut simply because you are a foreigner, that is not available to any US citizen. The license is really irrelevant because you cannot use it without completing the company courses unless you are looking to again exchange it with another country that doesn't take your British License. That is a practice that is also decried.
Cheers
Wino
You are correct, but what is the point of what you are saying because the required courses at all US airlines are the full ATP and Type rating given under the company umbrella, so you would still have to do the same amount of work.
After the Eastern Strike and the hiring of unqualified replacements in "short courses" there are NO SHORT COURSES ANYWHERE IN THE US. IF I get out of the cockpit of a 737 for airline x, I must still go through the ENTIRE program for airline y as a US citizen flying for a US airline. What you are asking for is a shortcut simply because you are a foreigner, that is not available to any US citizen. The license is really irrelevant because you cannot use it without completing the company courses unless you are looking to again exchange it with another country that doesn't take your British License. That is a practice that is also decried.
Cheers
Wino
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Wino I think the point is this. If a UK airline has a tie-in with a US airline like us, then surley I or any of my colleuges should be able to go over to the US and fly for that airline with a minimum amount of fuss, just the same way as my US friends come over to us and fly.
I don't want to work for any old US airline this winter, just the one we are tied in with. At the moment cost and time look like this might be an impossibility. I don't think its an accident current regs are still in force.
Best rgds
[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: Slick ]
I don't want to work for any old US airline this winter, just the one we are tied in with. At the moment cost and time look like this might be an impossibility. I don't think its an accident current regs are still in force.
Best rgds
[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: Slick ]
Union Goon
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Okay, I see what you are saying, and in the case of JMC at Ryan for example it is becoming increasingly possible.
The first step down the road was to harmonize the procedures and checkrides so that they are virtually identical between the two airlines. Airworld and Ryan were doing that but when those arrogant tossers at Flying Colours stuck their noses in they screwed it up for 2 more years. They are just finally unscrewing what that lot or morons did.
Anyway, then you cross qualify the checkairmen (which is currently going on) or else you have 2 checkairmen sit on one ride. Then you get 2 pieces of paper (One UK and one USA) and snap you are done.
The license is a seperate one time hurdle faced by both sides but once done, you are there, and it is very easily done as a newhire.
Incidentally there are NO visa requirements for operating in and out of the USA, even from a USA base. The only time a visa would be required would be for domestic services, unlike in the UK where we all had to get A.L.E's (handled by the company so transparent to the pilot).
But it requires planning and giving your overseas partner a voice in how you operate your aircraft.
Incidentally, you can run newhires through the simultaneous program as well, just makesure all boxes are ticked.
That lot down in Miami are a bunch of scabs and have multiple problems. One is the mentality, two is everyone knows about the mentality. Therefore nothing will move quickly for them, and the normal pace of the FAA/CAA is glacial at best.
Cheers
Wino
The first step down the road was to harmonize the procedures and checkrides so that they are virtually identical between the two airlines. Airworld and Ryan were doing that but when those arrogant tossers at Flying Colours stuck their noses in they screwed it up for 2 more years. They are just finally unscrewing what that lot or morons did.
Anyway, then you cross qualify the checkairmen (which is currently going on) or else you have 2 checkairmen sit on one ride. Then you get 2 pieces of paper (One UK and one USA) and snap you are done.
The license is a seperate one time hurdle faced by both sides but once done, you are there, and it is very easily done as a newhire.
Incidentally there are NO visa requirements for operating in and out of the USA, even from a USA base. The only time a visa would be required would be for domestic services, unlike in the UK where we all had to get A.L.E's (handled by the company so transparent to the pilot).
But it requires planning and giving your overseas partner a voice in how you operate your aircraft.
Incidentally, you can run newhires through the simultaneous program as well, just makesure all boxes are ticked.
That lot down in Miami are a bunch of scabs and have multiple problems. One is the mentality, two is everyone knows about the mentality. Therefore nothing will move quickly for them, and the normal pace of the FAA/CAA is glacial at best.
Cheers
Wino
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WINO - Perhaps you could expand on your comment: Incidentally there are NO visa requirements for operating in and out of the USA, even from a USA base. This is not consistent with the recent flight advertisement, (refer to my earlier post), in which despite the carrier being non US, and not operating as far as I am aware domestic services, it is only open to US citizens or green card holders to apply. Not quite a level playing field I would suggest .
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Wino thanks, I guess if all you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt), that has put the final nail in the coffin as far as this winters concerned; and at the rate we appear to be 'harmonizing', next as well.
Would appriciate an e-mail from you to explain your comments on Miami Air. Don't really want to go into a public airline trashing session.
All the best
Would appriciate an e-mail from you to explain your comments on Miami Air. Don't really want to go into a public airline trashing session.
All the best
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Slick - what he means is that Miami Air was set up by former Eastern pilots that ignored the IAM picket lines and tried to keep their company in business.
Unfortunately, due to arrogance and pigheadedness on the part of both management and the unions, they failed.
Unfortunately, due to arrogance and pigheadedness on the part of both management and the unions, they failed.
Union Goon
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Dirty Harry,
It is called a D visa and it is automatically issued to airline crews that are operating in and out but not in and in for America
It is the same visa that every single JMC pilot used. But it is not a visa that requires any sort of application or whatnot. Just showing up is all that it takes.
However, if you operate 1 leg inside the US, the picks up AND drops off passangers then you need the green card. You could pick up pax in LAX, go to JFK and pick up more pax (as long as no revenue pax get off, change of crew is okay) and then continue on to Europe. No Green card/work permit required.
A D visa is NOT the same as a green card or work permit. But neither is required in the above situation.
If they are restricting it to Green card and work permits only and they are only flying international service, then that is simply the choice of the company involved and not a matter of regulation. It would seam that they are doing what you would want to demand that the British carriers do. Maybe they just got more character, or a better supply of warm bodies.
Cheers
Wino
It is called a D visa and it is automatically issued to airline crews that are operating in and out but not in and in for America
It is the same visa that every single JMC pilot used. But it is not a visa that requires any sort of application or whatnot. Just showing up is all that it takes.
However, if you operate 1 leg inside the US, the picks up AND drops off passangers then you need the green card. You could pick up pax in LAX, go to JFK and pick up more pax (as long as no revenue pax get off, change of crew is okay) and then continue on to Europe. No Green card/work permit required.
A D visa is NOT the same as a green card or work permit. But neither is required in the above situation.
If they are restricting it to Green card and work permits only and they are only flying international service, then that is simply the choice of the company involved and not a matter of regulation. It would seam that they are doing what you would want to demand that the British carriers do. Maybe they just got more character, or a better supply of warm bodies.
Cheers
Wino
