Pardon the Loud Noise, Captain...
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A captain refused an off line pilot a jumpseat. There was no problem until the jumpseater came onto the airplane and introduced himself as an FFDO. At that point the captain decided he could not offer the jumpseat. Though he was smart enough not to say it was because the jumpseater was an ffdo it was apparent that there was not an issue with the jumpseat, until he found out that the jumpseater was an FFDO.
The jumpseater reported the incident to the ALPA jumpseat commitee and it worked its way around the system.
Both the captain's chief pilot and the FBI had meetings with said captain and explained to him that his authority ended where the FFDO federal badge began.
If and when you try it I am sure you too will get to have a meeting with a couple of FBI agents. They will explain it to you.
There are a few captains who make LEOs put their weapons in the cargo hold. Some have tried it with FBI agents. That did not work out too well for the pilots involved either.
The jumpseater reported the incident to the ALPA jumpseat commitee and it worked its way around the system.
Both the captain's chief pilot and the FBI had meetings with said captain and explained to him that his authority ended where the FFDO federal badge began.
If and when you try it I am sure you too will get to have a meeting with a couple of FBI agents. They will explain it to you.
There are a few captains who make LEOs put their weapons in the cargo hold. Some have tried it with FBI agents. That did not work out too well for the pilots involved either.
All,
Perhaps we could all tone it down a bit and treat this incident just like any other flight incident/accident. Later on, after an investigation, the facts will come out, even if it is considered a "national security" issue at the moment.
I'm sure most pilots here can understand what I'm saying, we all know of plenty of incidents where the facts seem so clear from the outset, yet what really happened was completely different. This point is directly aimed at some here, including those with claimed weapons experience, regarding "trigger pulls". The real story will come out. We aren't dealing with nuclear warhead design secrets.
For the rest of the lot, just continue your preconceived political rants, and put the hamster wheel into overdrive.
Perhaps we could all tone it down a bit and treat this incident just like any other flight incident/accident. Later on, after an investigation, the facts will come out, even if it is considered a "national security" issue at the moment.
I'm sure most pilots here can understand what I'm saying, we all know of plenty of incidents where the facts seem so clear from the outset, yet what really happened was completely different. This point is directly aimed at some here, including those with claimed weapons experience, regarding "trigger pulls". The real story will come out. We aren't dealing with nuclear warhead design secrets.
For the rest of the lot, just continue your preconceived political rants, and put the hamster wheel into overdrive.
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Question
Again I shall ask, dose the Captain of a flight have the right to not allow the carriage of a weapon on the flight deck? Yes I have not been involved in this due to the fact I work for a forgien carrier and it is not allowed.
If nobody cares to answer could you maybe point me in the right direction to find out.
If nobody cares to answer could you maybe point me in the right direction to find out.
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CorkEICK said
Why is it unbelievable (with multiple exclamation points?) Why do you feel or think YOU need that information?
The reporter in the WCNC video states "A spokesperson for the TSA said that information (what the pilot was doing with his gun when it went off)may never be released because its considered classified information which he says could compromise National security"
Unbelievable!!!!
Unbelievable!!!!
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Both the captain's chief pilot and the FBI had meetings with said captain and explained to him that his authority ended where the FFDO federal badge began.
If and when you try it I am sure you too will get to have a meeting with a couple of FBI agents. They will explain it to you.
If and when you try it I am sure you too will get to have a meeting with a couple of FBI agents. They will explain it to you.
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Everybody thinks that the captain has broad authority to refuse jumpseaters.
Try it and see what happens.
ALPA's primary motivation, not to mention the carriers that actually own the seat, is to enable pilots to get to and from work.
Though ALPA supports the captain's authority they are more concerned that a pilot can get home or to work.
Just refuse a jumpseat and see wait for the ALPA response. These boards are filled with people talking about refusing jumpseats but I would bet that very few have actually done so.
The TSA has been pretty clear about the FFDO issue. Next time you fly with an FFDO ask him/her what they are told in training will happen if they are refused a jumpseat.
By the way Stilton, with respect to this quote;
"Whether someone is a working crewmember or jumpseater, however I advise them to 'cool it' with the gunplay.(No turning in your seat, posturing 'ready to draw' scaring the flight attendant when she brings me my tea !"
I can assure you that the FFDOs that you tell this to are just humoring you by not explaining to you that they don't really care about your opinion.
You do realize that should an incident occur in the cabin your FFDO FO has the authority to tell you where you are going to land your aircraft?
Try it and see what happens.
ALPA's primary motivation, not to mention the carriers that actually own the seat, is to enable pilots to get to and from work.
Though ALPA supports the captain's authority they are more concerned that a pilot can get home or to work.
Just refuse a jumpseat and see wait for the ALPA response. These boards are filled with people talking about refusing jumpseats but I would bet that very few have actually done so.
The TSA has been pretty clear about the FFDO issue. Next time you fly with an FFDO ask him/her what they are told in training will happen if they are refused a jumpseat.
By the way Stilton, with respect to this quote;
"Whether someone is a working crewmember or jumpseater, however I advise them to 'cool it' with the gunplay.(No turning in your seat, posturing 'ready to draw' scaring the flight attendant when she brings me my tea !"
I can assure you that the FFDOs that you tell this to are just humoring you by not explaining to you that they don't really care about your opinion.
You do realize that should an incident occur in the cabin your FFDO FO has the authority to tell you where you are going to land your aircraft?
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WILEYDOG03
Quote :"Why is it unbelievable (with multiple exclamation points?) Why do you feel or think YOU need that information?"
Coulnt care less what happened and I never stated I need that info. I just find it unbelievable that its considered of such importance that its classified info.
I never fly in USA and have no plans to do so. However if I was flying in the States I would certainly like to have that info. As im not YOU can "get a grip...."
Quote :"Why is it unbelievable (with multiple exclamation points?) Why do you feel or think YOU need that information?"
Coulnt care less what happened and I never stated I need that info. I just find it unbelievable that its considered of such importance that its classified info.
I never fly in USA and have no plans to do so. However if I was flying in the States I would certainly like to have that info. As im not YOU can "get a grip...."
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Everybody thinks that the captain has broad authority to refuse jumpseaters.
Try it and see what happens.
But I've been around too long to let you tell me what a few decades in the business have revealed. (Not much happens, if anything at all.)
ALPA's primary motivation, not to mention the carriers that actually own the seat, is to enable pilots to get to and from work.
Though ALPA supports the captain's authority they are more concerned that a pilot can get home or to work.
Just refuse a jumpseat and see wait for the ALPA response. These boards are filled with people talking about refusing jumpseats but I would bet that very few have actually done so.
Though ALPA supports the captain's authority they are more concerned that a pilot can get home or to work.
Just refuse a jumpseat and see wait for the ALPA response. These boards are filled with people talking about refusing jumpseats but I would bet that very few have actually done so.
The TSA has been pretty clear about the FFDO issue. Next time you fly with an FFDO ask him/her what they are told in training will happen if they are refused a jumpseat.
Fortunately, the TSA does not dictate Captain's authority.
The FFDO on duty must be permitted to do his job as armed aviator - true. Jumpseating still requires a Captain's permission, armed or not.
Exactly how would it become 'apparent' that a jumpseater was turned down because he was an FFDO ?
Was the Captain taken to Guantanamo bay for questioning ?
And what would the FBI have to do with it ? FFDO'S are under the supervision of the TSA.
Have you or your airline management read lately the FAR that states the Captain is the ultimate authority on the aircraft, no one else, not the FFDO or Alpa.
I have several colleagues that have turned down jumpseaters over the years, not a squeak from our management / FBI / SECRET SERVICE/ NASA/ GHOSTBUSTERS.
As I mentioned earlier, If, as Captain you lack the basic authority to control your own jumpseat I wonder what else they have taken from you.
I give you 4 out of 5 Pinocchios for your story though, only 4 because I have heard better.
Was the Captain taken to Guantanamo bay for questioning ?
And what would the FBI have to do with it ? FFDO'S are under the supervision of the TSA.
Have you or your airline management read lately the FAR that states the Captain is the ultimate authority on the aircraft, no one else, not the FFDO or Alpa.
I have several colleagues that have turned down jumpseaters over the years, not a squeak from our management / FBI / SECRET SERVICE/ NASA/ GHOSTBUSTERS.
As I mentioned earlier, If, as Captain you lack the basic authority to control your own jumpseat I wonder what else they have taken from you.
I give you 4 out of 5 Pinocchios for your story though, only 4 because I have heard better.
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You do realize that should an incident occur in the cabin your FFDO FO has the authority to tell you where you are going to land your aircraft?
This argument has no winner. Any complaint you have on the ground for where a Captain chose to land following such an event will not have much negative repercussion for the Captain unless you can prove some manner of negligence.
So... exactly how many airline Captains do you think are out there that believe they must obey their armed co-pilots orders?
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It was apparent because there was no problem until the captain learned the jumpseater was an FFDO.
When there is a problem involving a federal officer on an airline flight it is investigated by the FBI.
As I said, If you really believe that captain's authority extends this far, refuse an FFDO the jumpseat and be honest with him/her as to why you are refusing the jumpseat and see what happens.
Regarding refusing the jumpseat for no particular reason.
If you have refused to carry others please provide details. If you have done so and have not heard anything it is very possible that the pilot involved simply chose not to report the incident to either his/her jumpseat committee or pro standards.
When there is a problem involving a federal officer on an airline flight it is investigated by the FBI.
As I said, If you really believe that captain's authority extends this far, refuse an FFDO the jumpseat and be honest with him/her as to why you are refusing the jumpseat and see what happens.
Regarding refusing the jumpseat for no particular reason.
If you have refused to carry others please provide details. If you have done so and have not heard anything it is very possible that the pilot involved simply chose not to report the incident to either his/her jumpseat committee or pro standards.
stilton,
Here is a summary:
1. No problem-Turn down a jumpseater due to reasons 1-1000, just keep it to yourself.
2. Big problem-Proclaim to jumpseater, in front of witnesses, that you are turning jumpseater down specifically because he is an FFDO. It is probably up there with loudly declining a rider because he is of a different race, religon, or national origin (lots of shifty Scandanavians at my US co.
). The term "summon the hounds" would go good with any of these.
Clear now?
Here is a summary:
1. No problem-Turn down a jumpseater due to reasons 1-1000, just keep it to yourself.
2. Big problem-Proclaim to jumpseater, in front of witnesses, that you are turning jumpseater down specifically because he is an FFDO. It is probably up there with loudly declining a rider because he is of a different race, religon, or national origin (lots of shifty Scandanavians at my US co.
). The term "summon the hounds" would go good with any of these.Clear now?
Precisely my point, WhatsaLizad, and one that seems incomprehensible to some 
I sincerely hope you are not an FFDO 'seven three'
I have a suggestion for you, try telling the Captain you have a higher authority than his / her in ANY circumstances regarding operation of the aircraft and see where that takes you
I sincerely hope you are not an FFDO 'seven three'
I have a suggestion for you, try telling the Captain you have a higher authority than his / her in ANY circumstances regarding operation of the aircraft and see where that takes you
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The statute gives the FFDO authority to make diversion decisions. Look it up.
Should there be a disturbance on an aircraft and the FFDO tells you to land you do have the authority to override under your emergency authority. You will, however, be required to justify your decision.
FWIW I am a captain who is familiar with the law as it pertains to the FFDO issue.
"Pilot's don't make mistakes, crews make mistakes."
T. Allan McCarter, while FAA administrator on why the agency was going after both pilots when a violation occured.
You sound like a one man show Stilton.
"Respect my author - it - tie."
Should there be a disturbance on an aircraft and the FFDO tells you to land you do have the authority to override under your emergency authority. You will, however, be required to justify your decision.
FWIW I am a captain who is familiar with the law as it pertains to the FFDO issue.
"Pilot's don't make mistakes, crews make mistakes."
T. Allan McCarter, while FAA administrator on why the agency was going after both pilots when a violation occured.
You sound like a one man show Stilton.
"Respect my author - it - tie."
Last edited by seventhree; 26th Mar 2008 at 23:17.
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Both the captain's chief pilot and the FBI had meetings with said captain and explained to him that his authority ended where the FFDO federal badge began.
If and when you try it I am sure you too will get to have a meeting with a couple of FBI agents. They will explain it to you.
If and when you try it I am sure you too will get to have a meeting with a couple of FBI agents. They will explain it to you.
I agree with my friend stilton that in theory maybe it shouldn't be that way but in the real world, that's exactly how it works. Anbody that tries the Skygod act and bumps an FFDO for being armed will get a severe reality check. He is a federal officer as far as the feds are concerned.
But, don't take my word for it, try it sometime and see what happens.
"Son you don't own that plane, the taxpayers do. And you're writing checks your body can't cash."
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Guns aren't dangerous. Idiots are dangerous.
Many years ago when I wore a hairy brown suit and a matching iron hat I learnt about loaded pistols. A safe autonatic pistol has the action forward and the safety catch set to safe before the magazine is fitted. A safe revolver has the hammer resting on an empty chamber and safety catch set to safe. A doubly safe pistol of either type has been checked by a competent handler to be in this condition and then left in its holster. To do otherwise is the firearm equivalent of forgetting to lower the undercarriage before landing.
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Next time you fly with an FFDO ask him/her about the safety.
Sorry, just noticed you are from the UK.
Hint - the weapon appears to be a law enforcement model.
(i.e. no external safety.)
BTW, who said the weapon had ever been out of its holster?
Sorry, just noticed you are from the UK.
Hint - the weapon appears to be a law enforcement model.
(i.e. no external safety.)
BTW, who said the weapon had ever been out of its holster?
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It was only a matter of time before we got to the "guns aren't dangerous, idiots are dangerous" argument.
Like saying "sulphuric acid isn't dangerous - scientists with slippery hands are dangerous".
It must just be my twisted logic and rationality, but I fail to see how a mechanical apparatus specifically designed to explosively fire a high speed projectile (and loaded with said projectile) for the express purpose of killing or wounding does not qualify as inherently "dangerous", no matter whose hands it's in. I've never been good with rational argument though.
I would've thought the risk in this program was apparent to all but the incomprehensively blind.
Like saying "sulphuric acid isn't dangerous - scientists with slippery hands are dangerous".
It must just be my twisted logic and rationality, but I fail to see how a mechanical apparatus specifically designed to explosively fire a high speed projectile (and loaded with said projectile) for the express purpose of killing or wounding does not qualify as inherently "dangerous", no matter whose hands it's in. I've never been good with rational argument though.
I would've thought the risk in this program was apparent to all but the incomprehensively blind.
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CorkEICK
So you don't care and don't need the information?
So you do think you're entitled to have the information ?
Which is it? or are you doing just having an argument with yourself?
And I don't need to 'get a grip.' Never lost it in the first place. You?
Coulnt care less what happened and I never stated I need that info. I just find it unbelievable that its considered of such importance that its classified info.
I never fly in USA and have no plans to do so. However if I was flying in the States I would certainly like to have that info. As im not YOU can "get a grip...."
Which is it? or are you doing just having an argument with yourself?
And I don't need to 'get a grip.' Never lost it in the first place. You?
Unfortunately, Dutch Roll, there are a substantial number of incomprehensively blind gun fanatics in this country.
If there was a discussion on this forum about Captains authority, with reference to any other subject but guns, the 'bubbas' and 'seven threes' of this world would be arguing just as vociferously for the absoluteness of that authority.
Blindness, perfectly illustrated.
Things will change though, and not just in this next election, this is a young country with a lot to learn yet
If there was a discussion on this forum about Captains authority, with reference to any other subject but guns, the 'bubbas' and 'seven threes' of this world would be arguing just as vociferously for the absoluteness of that authority.
Blindness, perfectly illustrated.
Things will change though, and not just in this next election, this is a young country with a lot to learn yet