Pardon the Loud Noise, Captain...
'Airbubba'
Cut the 'Federal officer crap' if you don't think you have the right to deny the jumpseat to anyone as Captain of your aircraft, you are in the wrong profession,
If you are asked to explain yourself later, then do it.You are the ultimate authority, not the gunslinger.
It is not the same situation as a working pilot.
You only lose your authority if you give it away.
Cut the 'Federal officer crap' if you don't think you have the right to deny the jumpseat to anyone as Captain of your aircraft, you are in the wrong profession,
If you are asked to explain yourself later, then do it.You are the ultimate authority, not the gunslinger.
It is not the same situation as a working pilot.
You only lose your authority if you give it away.
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Cut the 'Federal officer crap' if you don't think you have the right to deny the jumpseat to anyone as Captain of your aircraft, you are in the wrong profession
Try bumping an FFDO for being armed and see what happens. Something tells me that you don't make the call yourself. Have you ever had an FFDO on the jumpseat?
I have received guidance on this issue from both the company and the union, I'll let you be the point man on this one.
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matt_hooks
Wunderbra
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So, we have to conclude that the captain committed the cardinal sin of sticking his finger inside the trigger guard whilst not "on target"
So, you're a professional pilot, right? A plane crashes. Do you draw conclusions from the newspapers or do you wait to find out what the investigators uncover from their investigation?
We don't "have to conclude" that the pilot had his finger on the trigger. You might want to believe that based on the limitations of your imagination but that doesn't mean it happened that way.
Wunderbra
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So, we have to conclude that the captain committed the cardinal sin of sticking his finger inside the trigger guard whilst not "on target"
So, you're a professional pilot, right? A plane crashes. Do you draw conclusions from the newspapers or do you wait to find out what the investigators uncover from their investigation?
We don't "have to conclude" that the pilot had his finger on the trigger. You might want to believe that based on the limitations of your imagination but that doesn't mean it happened that way.
Misd-agin
Clearly you have little or no knowledge with regards to this actual pistol. There have been many posts on this thread and there are plenty of sites where you can find out about this fire arm. So take a look at them and you will see where we are coming from, with regards "the finger on the trigger". It’s the only way to fire it.
Also in training for any fire arm " You never put your finger on the trigger unless you have a target and are prepared to shoot" They are standard issue in a lot of different organisations. I have used one in the Irish Army RDF. However with a different calliber. So I know what these people are talking about when they say it takes a finger on the trigger to shoot.
Sooooo... yes it would be ok in this situation to say that this has to be 99.999% sure the reason of the NEGLIGENT discharge was due to the pilot messing up. Its just how the gun is made that makes this such a sure thing.
As for the 0.001%.... 'Well the unsinkable titanic did sink'
Last edited by Ricky1; 26th Mar 2008 at 05:07.
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BTW, for those who have been through the FFDO program, How many of you's would think 'Auburn Calloway' would have made it through the course? Everyone said he was ok in the head....... Doesn't make you feel to comfortable about the whole situtation that pilots can carry pistols on board... FFDO training or not.
Do we really have to let this be another " learn from or mistakes" situation
Do we really have to let this be another " learn from or mistakes" situation
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Everyone said he was ok in the head..
What you're leaving out about that incident is that it is, to me, the most powerful argument FOR the FFDO program. Cargo pilots are alone in the sky - absolutely no help from anyone. Half of our aircraft don't have hardened doors. We employ minimum-wage workers in the most armed nation in history to load our aircraft. Workers can and have stowed away before. A company employee was stopped going through screening at the Memphis airport carrying a straight razor in a book not 3 years ago.
I'm so happy you have such confidence in the screening and security procedures of your airlines. Perhaps one day we can come up to that standard. Meanwhile, I've got to climb into a big nasty freighter and launch out under the stars with 200,000 pounds of boxes packed by people I don't know. Self protection at that point isn't a very "cowboy" type of an idea at all, really.....
I think you may be a little confused between the policy's governing FFDO'S that are working crewmembers and those wishing to ride jumpseat 'airbubba'
As Captain, I decide who rides on the jumpseat at my airline, it is my decision (provided the individual is verified in the Cass system and has the proper documentation) to allow, or not allow them to exercise this privilege, not a right assumed by them, no matter who they are, with the possible exception of an FAA inspector.
Whether they are an FFDO or not is immaterial, I do not have to give a reason to deny anyone a jumpseat in my cockpit, and this is supported by our management.
If your airline denys you this basic authority, I sympathise.
If my FO is an FFDO that is something I have to live with for now, fortunately not often as I mostly fly international where calmer heads have prevailed.
Whether someone is a working crewmember or jumpseater, however I advise them to 'cool it' with the gunplay.(No turning in your seat, posturing 'ready to draw' scaring the flight attendant when she brings me my tea !
As Captain, I decide who rides on the jumpseat at my airline, it is my decision (provided the individual is verified in the Cass system and has the proper documentation) to allow, or not allow them to exercise this privilege, not a right assumed by them, no matter who they are, with the possible exception of an FAA inspector.
Whether they are an FFDO or not is immaterial, I do not have to give a reason to deny anyone a jumpseat in my cockpit, and this is supported by our management.
If your airline denys you this basic authority, I sympathise.
If my FO is an FFDO that is something I have to live with for now, fortunately not often as I mostly fly international where calmer heads have prevailed.
Whether someone is a working crewmember or jumpseater, however I advise them to 'cool it' with the gunplay.(No turning in your seat, posturing 'ready to draw' scaring the flight attendant when she brings me my tea !
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Well said Stilton.
Having four bars and sitting left seat means you are in command.
Unless ffdo's have five bars or are going to use the weapon to countermand then the facts are clear.
Bring on the paperwork, suspend me if you dare but my aircraft is under my control make no mistake.
"I have control.....you do radios......and the gunman can get the hell off"
Having four bars and sitting left seat means you are in command.
Unless ffdo's have five bars or are going to use the weapon to countermand then the facts are clear.
Bring on the paperwork, suspend me if you dare but my aircraft is under my control make no mistake.
"I have control.....you do radios......and the gunman can get the hell off"
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wileydog3 . . . yes, it's understood by most reasonable people and above all by aeronautical engineers that a tiny hole in the fuselage made by a tiny bullet as such would not cause depressurization.
The larger issue is whether the cockpit side window [with 2 tons of pressure per square inch at high altitude, for example] would have maintained its integrity or would have shattered, . . . in which case there would have been a hole much larger than both outflow valves combined [as on a 747].
From the A319 cockpit photos it is apparent that this bullet hole was only about 12 inches from hitting the side window which is not as thick and sturdy as the forward facing windscreens.
And if the bullet in fact was fired from the copilot's gun, then its trajectory was too close across the captain's knees for comfort. So this would not be just a simple forget-about-it accidental discharge of a deadly weapon, but something like "attempted, involuntary manslaughter" due to gross negligence.
This is not a scenario which USAir nor its pilots' union can easily keep low key. In fact this incident will likely trigger a bottoms up training review of the FFDO program, if not its termination altogether. Most pilots and most passengers are not happy with guns in the cockpit; and the media buzz about this incident will drive this message home to congress and more importantly to the mental midgets at the TSA who authorized this program.
The larger issue is whether the cockpit side window [with 2 tons of pressure per square inch at high altitude, for example] would have maintained its integrity or would have shattered, . . . in which case there would have been a hole much larger than both outflow valves combined [as on a 747].
From the A319 cockpit photos it is apparent that this bullet hole was only about 12 inches from hitting the side window which is not as thick and sturdy as the forward facing windscreens.
And if the bullet in fact was fired from the copilot's gun, then its trajectory was too close across the captain's knees for comfort. So this would not be just a simple forget-about-it accidental discharge of a deadly weapon, but something like "attempted, involuntary manslaughter" due to gross negligence.
This is not a scenario which USAir nor its pilots' union can easily keep low key. In fact this incident will likely trigger a bottoms up training review of the FFDO program, if not its termination altogether. Most pilots and most passengers are not happy with guns in the cockpit; and the media buzz about this incident will drive this message home to congress and more importantly to the mental midgets at the TSA who authorized this program.
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This is not a scenario which USAir nor its pilots' union can easily keep low key. In fact this incident will likely trigger a bottoms up training review of the FFDO program, if not its termination altogether. Most pilots and most passengers are not happy with guns in the cockpit; and the media buzz about this incident will drive this message home to congress and more importantly to the mental midgets at the TSA who authorized this program.
You are more than likely incorrect that it will cause the program to fold. HOWEVER having said that I have to remember it IS an election year in the states and that means the circus is coming to town. Clowns of all stripes with a pet gripe will be headed to DC.
And please cite your sources for
Most pilots and most passengers are not happy with guns in the cockpit;
Balls in your court...
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Ricky1
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Misd-agin
Clearly you have little or no knowledge with regards to this actual pistol. There have been many posts on this thread and there are plenty of sites where you can find out about this fire arm. So take a look at them and you will see where we are coming from, with regards "the finger on the trigger". It’s the only way to fire it.
Actually I own one. Union has an agreement with the manufacturer.
The gun can go off without someone pulling the trigger. We'll have to see what the investigation finds out as fact, as opposed to speculation from 'experts' who weren't there.
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Misd-agin
Clearly you have little or no knowledge with regards to this actual pistol. There have been many posts on this thread and there are plenty of sites where you can find out about this fire arm. So take a look at them and you will see where we are coming from, with regards "the finger on the trigger". It’s the only way to fire it.
Actually I own one. Union has an agreement with the manufacturer.
The gun can go off without someone pulling the trigger. We'll have to see what the investigation finds out as fact, as opposed to speculation from 'experts' who weren't there.
Aw, c'mon guys. He was flying an AIRBUS. I've lost count of the number of times I've really felt like using my grandads old service revolver on the bl**dy computer in front of me now. I can only imagine the horror of not only being SURROUNDED by them, but having them IN CONTROL! 
Surprised it was only one shot...........
Surprised it was only one shot...........
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How many of you's would think 'Auburn Calloway' would have made it through the course? Everyone said he was ok in the head
Auburn is currently serving a life sentence at USP Atwater, CA where he is inmate number 14601-076.
http://www.bop.gov/iloc2/InmateFinde...-076&x=29&y=23
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http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54043
320 respondents in PPRuNe Forums poll showed 65% against guns in cockpit vs. 35% for.
320 respondents in PPRuNe Forums poll showed 65% against guns in cockpit vs. 35% for.
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Is there any procedure for carrying the gun outside the aircraft? Seeing a pilot walking by with a (obviously) loaded gun in his holster under his uniform doesn't look comfy to most of the european folks - including me. Do you automaticly have the right to carry this weapon in public when leaving the airport and vice versa?
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You talk big Stilton.
Just try it and see what happens.
I only know of one 121 capt. who has tried this so far. It did not go well for him and it would not go well for you.
I guarantee that you will only get to try this one time.
Just try it and see what happens.
I only know of one 121 capt. who has tried this so far. It did not go well for him and it would not go well for you.
I guarantee that you will only get to try this one time.
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A picture of the bullet hole
Apologies if somneone else has already posted this ....
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/US-Air...lrdtwqbPgDW7oF
In these undated images provided to the Associated Press, Tuesday, March 25, 2008, a purported bullet hole is shown in a US Airways aircraft. In the top photo a suspected bullet hole is shown in the left third of the photo. In the bottom photo the suspected bullet hole is shown in the bottom center of the photograph. A gunshot fired from a pistol belonging to the pilot of a US Airways flight blasted a small hole through the plane's cockpit wall. Airline officials have said the accidental discharge Saturday aboard Flight 1536 from Denver to Charlotte did not pose a danger to those on board. (AP Photo)
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/US-Air...lrdtwqbPgDW7oF
In these undated images provided to the Associated Press, Tuesday, March 25, 2008, a purported bullet hole is shown in a US Airways aircraft. In the top photo a suspected bullet hole is shown in the left third of the photo. In the bottom photo the suspected bullet hole is shown in the bottom center of the photograph. A gunshot fired from a pistol belonging to the pilot of a US Airways flight blasted a small hole through the plane's cockpit wall. Airline officials have said the accidental discharge Saturday aboard Flight 1536 from Denver to Charlotte did not pose a danger to those on board. (AP Photo)
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The reporter in the WCNC video states "A spokesperson for the TSA said that information (what the pilot was doing with his gun when it went off)may never be released because its considered classified information which he says could compromise National security"
Unbelievable!!!!
Unbelievable!!!!
