Pardon the Loud Noise, Captain...
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Latest on flight 1536
To me this gun, '.40 calibers semiautomatic H&K USP' would be almost impossible to discharge a shot without the pilot doing something stupid with it. I hope the captain punched the guy, for his stupidity! The shot just missed the Captain. The shot trajectory was from the FO seat across the front of the Captains torso through the cockpit wall and exited just below the cockpit window. See pictures below. Pilot is now on leave.
News report as of 10 mins ago
CHARLOTTE, N.C. — The pilot of a US Airways plane may have mishandled a firearm that went off in flight, piercing a hole in the cockpit wall, a federal air marshal and gun safety expert said Tuesday.
"This is an extremely safe and reliable weapon," said Greg Alter, of the Federal Air Marshal Service. "It's not going to discharge on its own is the bottom line."
The pistol - a .40 caliber semiautomatic H&K USP - discharged Saturday aboard Flight 1536 from Denver to Charlotte, as the plane with 124 passengers and five crew members was approaching to land. Photos obtained by The Associated Press show a small entry hole in the lower side of the cockpit wall and a small exit hole on the exterior below the cockpit window.
The AP described the photos and the bullet hole to US Airways spokesman Phil Gee, who said "they sound authentic."
Airline officials have said the accidental discharge Saturday did not endanger those on board, although air safety experts said Tuesday the shot could have caused the plane to rapidly depressurize had it hit a window at altitude.
"There are two issues: would they (the crew) have enough oxygen to remain alert," said Earl Dowell, an aeronautical engineering professor at Duke University. "If the crew could no longer control the airplane that would be a big deal. And the rapid loss of pressure might damage the structure itself."
But both Dowell and Fu-Kuo Chang, a professor of aeronautical engineering at Stanford University, said airplane design emphasizes safety and that such a blast - even if it knocked out a window in mid-flight - isn't likely to cause the kind of damage that would lead immediately to a crash.
"If not repaired, it may cause a problem. It could get bigger. For a single bullet, it would not be a factor for the safety of the airplane," Chang said. "If it hit the window, it may be a problem for depressurization. I still don't think it would cause a crash."
Dowell pointed to a 1988 Aloha Airlines flight in Hawaii, during which the roof of the jet ripped off after an explosive decompression at 24,000 feet. A flight attendant was blown out of the plane, but the passengers - many of whom were injured - remained strapped in their seats and the pilot safely landed the aircraft.
"If they lost a window, the people near that window would have been substantially uncomfortable," Dowell said. "You probably wouldn't have crashed the airplane. But there could have been some frightened people."
The gunshot marked the first time a pilot's weapon has been fired on a plane since the Flight Deck Officer Program was created following the September 11 terrorist attacks, Alter said. The Transportation Security Administration is investigating how the gun discharged, and Gee says the unidentified pilot has been taken off duty while that investigation is underway.
Pilots in the program undergo 50 hours of training at the federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Artesia, New Mexico Alter said it appears the pilot of the US Airways flight wasn't following "proper procedures. ... We just don't know exactly what procedure wasn't being followed."
Since April 2003, about 5,000 flight deck officers - captains or first officers - have gone through the training program and received permission to carry weapons in the cockpit, said Capt. Bob Hesselbein, chairman of the Air Line Pilots Association's National Security Committee. The union represents more than 61,000 pilots at 43 airlines.
Gee declined to say how many US Airways pilots have graduated from the program and carry guns while on duty, citing security.
But they all carry the same gun, the high-priced and high-quality H&K USP, which Alter said was especially selected for the program. Gun safety expert Ronald Scott, a ballistics expert who served for 25 years with the Massachusetts State Police, said the gun wouldn't discharge accidentally if dropped or jarred in some way.
"It's a top-of-the-line model," Scott said. "They're accurate and highly reliable. This is not something that you would just walk into a gun store and buy. And it's also not something that goes off by itself. ... Someone would have to squeeze the trigger."
The Airbus 319 will be grounded at Charlotte/Douglas International Airport for several more days as repairs are made. The Federal Aviation Administration said Tuesday it won't be involved in looking at why the gun went off, but will investigate to make sure the plane is safe before it returns to service.
"We want to make sure there was no structural damage and no systems on board were damaged by the bullet," said FAA spokesman Ian Gregor said. "We want to take a look at the aircraft to make sure it's in an air-worthy condition.
Pictures of damage and shot trajectory
Regards
Rick
BTW.... Last thing we need is for american pilots having guns on board..... Any one remember Auburn Calloway?!?!?
News report as of 10 mins ago
CHARLOTTE, N.C. — The pilot of a US Airways plane may have mishandled a firearm that went off in flight, piercing a hole in the cockpit wall, a federal air marshal and gun safety expert said Tuesday.
"This is an extremely safe and reliable weapon," said Greg Alter, of the Federal Air Marshal Service. "It's not going to discharge on its own is the bottom line."
The pistol - a .40 caliber semiautomatic H&K USP - discharged Saturday aboard Flight 1536 from Denver to Charlotte, as the plane with 124 passengers and five crew members was approaching to land. Photos obtained by The Associated Press show a small entry hole in the lower side of the cockpit wall and a small exit hole on the exterior below the cockpit window.
The AP described the photos and the bullet hole to US Airways spokesman Phil Gee, who said "they sound authentic."
Airline officials have said the accidental discharge Saturday did not endanger those on board, although air safety experts said Tuesday the shot could have caused the plane to rapidly depressurize had it hit a window at altitude.
"There are two issues: would they (the crew) have enough oxygen to remain alert," said Earl Dowell, an aeronautical engineering professor at Duke University. "If the crew could no longer control the airplane that would be a big deal. And the rapid loss of pressure might damage the structure itself."
But both Dowell and Fu-Kuo Chang, a professor of aeronautical engineering at Stanford University, said airplane design emphasizes safety and that such a blast - even if it knocked out a window in mid-flight - isn't likely to cause the kind of damage that would lead immediately to a crash.
"If not repaired, it may cause a problem. It could get bigger. For a single bullet, it would not be a factor for the safety of the airplane," Chang said. "If it hit the window, it may be a problem for depressurization. I still don't think it would cause a crash."
Dowell pointed to a 1988 Aloha Airlines flight in Hawaii, during which the roof of the jet ripped off after an explosive decompression at 24,000 feet. A flight attendant was blown out of the plane, but the passengers - many of whom were injured - remained strapped in their seats and the pilot safely landed the aircraft.
"If they lost a window, the people near that window would have been substantially uncomfortable," Dowell said. "You probably wouldn't have crashed the airplane. But there could have been some frightened people."
The gunshot marked the first time a pilot's weapon has been fired on a plane since the Flight Deck Officer Program was created following the September 11 terrorist attacks, Alter said. The Transportation Security Administration is investigating how the gun discharged, and Gee says the unidentified pilot has been taken off duty while that investigation is underway.
Pilots in the program undergo 50 hours of training at the federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Artesia, New Mexico Alter said it appears the pilot of the US Airways flight wasn't following "proper procedures. ... We just don't know exactly what procedure wasn't being followed."
Since April 2003, about 5,000 flight deck officers - captains or first officers - have gone through the training program and received permission to carry weapons in the cockpit, said Capt. Bob Hesselbein, chairman of the Air Line Pilots Association's National Security Committee. The union represents more than 61,000 pilots at 43 airlines.
Gee declined to say how many US Airways pilots have graduated from the program and carry guns while on duty, citing security.
But they all carry the same gun, the high-priced and high-quality H&K USP, which Alter said was especially selected for the program. Gun safety expert Ronald Scott, a ballistics expert who served for 25 years with the Massachusetts State Police, said the gun wouldn't discharge accidentally if dropped or jarred in some way.
"It's a top-of-the-line model," Scott said. "They're accurate and highly reliable. This is not something that you would just walk into a gun store and buy. And it's also not something that goes off by itself. ... Someone would have to squeeze the trigger."
The Airbus 319 will be grounded at Charlotte/Douglas International Airport for several more days as repairs are made. The Federal Aviation Administration said Tuesday it won't be involved in looking at why the gun went off, but will investigate to make sure the plane is safe before it returns to service.
"We want to make sure there was no structural damage and no systems on board were damaged by the bullet," said FAA spokesman Ian Gregor said. "We want to take a look at the aircraft to make sure it's in an air-worthy condition.
Pictures of damage and shot trajectory
Regards
Rick
BTW.... Last thing we need is for american pilots having guns on board..... Any one remember Auburn Calloway?!?!?
If this bullet had struck a cockpit window at cruise level, rather than nothing important on approach, would the consequences have been as harmless.? Yes
Would we still be talking about a harmless, whistling bullet-hole.? yes
Has this been tested ?. Yes
Would there be sudden and total decompression of the cockpit ? No
After the pilots have failed to recover from the shock, and get their
oxygen masks on within the period of useful conciousness, does the
aircraft fly on til it runs out of fuel, because the passengers and cabin
crew, who have automatic drop-down masks available, cannot access
the cockpit to revive/assist the flight crew.? presumptive question not deserving an assumptive answer
OK, that was more than one question.
Please tell me I'm wrong, and why.
Have mercy on me, I'm not a professional pilot, just a weekend worrier.
No because you assume a connection of speculative facts without knowlege rather than seeking to understand a piece at a time
Would we still be talking about a harmless, whistling bullet-hole.? yes
Has this been tested ?. Yes
Would there be sudden and total decompression of the cockpit ? No
After the pilots have failed to recover from the shock, and get their
oxygen masks on within the period of useful conciousness, does the
aircraft fly on til it runs out of fuel, because the passengers and cabin
crew, who have automatic drop-down masks available, cannot access
the cockpit to revive/assist the flight crew.? presumptive question not deserving an assumptive answer
OK, that was more than one question.
Please tell me I'm wrong, and why.
Have mercy on me, I'm not a professional pilot, just a weekend worrier.
No because you assume a connection of speculative facts without knowlege rather than seeking to understand a piece at a time
It this gunslinger's weapon was able to penetrate and hole the pressure vessel (which I have been told by our resident cowboys was impossible)
How on earth are you so confident it could not penetrate and shatter the Cockpit windows.
This would cause a fairly impressive depressurisation (ask the BA 1-11 Captain from a few years back)
Just a few inches away and the result could have been fatal.
We are not in Dodge city here boys, go and play in the woods with your toys, shoot each other for all I care.
Guns should only be used by the Military.
I will be adding to my briefing a caution of even further care on the domestic legs I have the misfortune to fly with these idiot's.
This was inevitable and will happen again.Time to cancel the program ASAP.
How on earth are you so confident it could not penetrate and shatter the Cockpit windows.
This would cause a fairly impressive depressurisation (ask the BA 1-11 Captain from a few years back)
Just a few inches away and the result could have been fatal.
We are not in Dodge city here boys, go and play in the woods with your toys, shoot each other for all I care.
Guns should only be used by the Military.
I will be adding to my briefing a caution of even further care on the domestic legs I have the misfortune to fly with these idiot's.
This was inevitable and will happen again.Time to cancel the program ASAP.
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Thanks for the answer, Lompaseo,
But,
I asked a series of questions, I didnt state an opinion.
So I am open to information.
However, it would appear to be open to debate, at least. See below,
selectively nicked from a post above.
"Airline officials have said the accidental discharge Saturday did not endanger those on board, although air safety experts said Tuesday the shot could have caused the plane to rapidly depressurize had it hit a window at altitude.
"There are two issues: would they (the crew) have enough oxygen to remain alert," said Earl Dowell, an aeronautical engineering professor at Duke University. "If the crew could no longer control the airplane that would be a big deal. And the rapid loss of pressure might damage the structure itself.""
I think that addresses at least two of my questions.
Regards,
FK
I asked a series of questions, I didnt state an opinion.
So I am open to information.
However, it would appear to be open to debate, at least. See below,
selectively nicked from a post above.
"Airline officials have said the accidental discharge Saturday did not endanger those on board, although air safety experts said Tuesday the shot could have caused the plane to rapidly depressurize had it hit a window at altitude.
"There are two issues: would they (the crew) have enough oxygen to remain alert," said Earl Dowell, an aeronautical engineering professor at Duke University. "If the crew could no longer control the airplane that would be a big deal. And the rapid loss of pressure might damage the structure itself.""
I think that addresses at least two of my questions.
Regards,
FK
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cant wait for the truth to come out and not all the speculation.... but maybe the captain wouldn't let the FO land the plane... Had a tantrum, fired his gun, to show who was boss, took control and landed the plane..... lol
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Confused?
"Airline officials have said the accidental discharge Saturday did not endanger those on board"
Would shooting (possible fatally) one of the two flight crew not be classed as endangering those onboard?
Would shooting (possible fatally) one of the two flight crew not be classed as endangering those onboard?
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"Airline officials have said the accidental discharge Saturday did not endanger those on board"
Would shooting (possible fatally) one of the two flight crew not be classed as endangering those onboard?
Would shooting (possible fatally) one of the two flight crew not be classed as endangering those onboard?
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Dani, I was in the program and carried before retiring and am no cowboy.
As for depressurization because of a hole, apparently no one has ever seen the outflow valves on a large airplane. The outflow valve on a 737 is MUCH MUCH larger than any hole created by a hand carried weapon.
And from there, let's say what you don't know about the FFDO program could fill an football stadium.
As for depressurization because of a hole, apparently no one has ever seen the outflow valves on a large airplane. The outflow valve on a 737 is MUCH MUCH larger than any hole created by a hand carried weapon.
And from there, let's say what you don't know about the FFDO program could fill an football stadium.
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Someone asked how many flights have been flown by armed pilots? Beats me.
But if April 2003 is when it started(news report) and another article mentioned 13,000 flights a month today, if the increase was linear we're talking about almost 400,000 flights.
Hardly high risk.
But if April 2003 is when it started(news report) and another article mentioned 13,000 flights a month today, if the increase was linear we're talking about almost 400,000 flights.
Hardly high risk.
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FWIW ' Still a stupid pilot'
the USP uses a Browning linkless-locked breech action, similar to that developed by John Browning for use in the Browning P35 "Hi Power" pistol. The pistol also features a safety which allows it to be safely carried "cocked and locked".
Pilot Fo or Cpt still did something thick to set it off. This has to be one of the safest pistols out there. ( used in the right hands!)
the USP uses a Browning linkless-locked breech action, similar to that developed by John Browning for use in the Browning P35 "Hi Power" pistol. The pistol also features a safety which allows it to be safely carried "cocked and locked".
Pilot Fo or Cpt still did something thick to set it off. This has to be one of the safest pistols out there. ( used in the right hands!)
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So we are happy to accept a discharge in every half million sectors then?
Real security happens at the check in desk, do it right. Profiling!
Posing with your penis extension, oops sorry weapon, on the flight deck was always going to culminate in this sort of incident. Maybe after the election marathon in the US this policy will be overturned.
Real security happens at the check in desk, do it right. Profiling!
Posing with your penis extension, oops sorry weapon, on the flight deck was always going to culminate in this sort of incident. Maybe after the election marathon in the US this policy will be overturned.
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Negligent Discharges are a serious problem in any situation, especially in a cockpit.
This isn't even close to being acceptable and whilst I don't want to jump on the band wagon of slagging of America, having loaded firearms BEHIND a locked and reinforced cockpit door does seem a bit daft.
ND's are a major problem in any situation. I nearly took a rangemasters head off when aged 12 because of a hair trigger and an unexpected knock. I have a good friend with a nasty limp after being hit in the leg by an ND from a .22 round.
I shoot and think that responsible people should be allowed access to firearms, however, allowing weapons onto the flight deck fills me with concern. This doen't exactly fill you with confidence.
This isn't even close to being acceptable and whilst I don't want to jump on the band wagon of slagging of America, having loaded firearms BEHIND a locked and reinforced cockpit door does seem a bit daft.
ND's are a major problem in any situation. I nearly took a rangemasters head off when aged 12 because of a hair trigger and an unexpected knock. I have a good friend with a nasty limp after being hit in the leg by an ND from a .22 round.
I shoot and think that responsible people should be allowed access to firearms, however, allowing weapons onto the flight deck fills me with concern. This doen't exactly fill you with confidence.
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Firstly, why all this talk of an "accidental" discharge? Wherever I've used weapons, a round fired unintentionally is a NEGLIGENT discharge, i.e. you're doing something wrong. There are procedures for weapons handling which, if followed properly, guarantee that a round will not be fired unless you intend it to.
Modern weapons are extremely safe, and will not go off of their own accord. It's rather simple, no pull trigger, no bang!
And as for it being mechanically faulty, again exceedingly unlikely. These weapons are drop tested from 6 feet, both cocked and uncocked. The German police issue weapon, which is effectively the same as the weapon carried in the program, did not exhibit a drop induced discharge in over 1000 drop tests with a round chambered and the hammer cocked. These tests were onto a steel backed concrete block. And as for wear, some of the early examples were tested through 30'000 rounds of standard amunition and 6000 proof rounds without any adverse effects.
So, we have to conclude that the captain committed the cardinal sin of sticking his finger inside the trigger guard whilst not "on target"
What he was doing playing with his weapon during final approach is a different matter entirely!
As for the benefits or otherwise of the program, I'm of the opinion that is has no real security benefit, but it might provide a certain amount of reassurance to the travelling public. And as pilots, our jobs depend on the fare-paying public continuing to want to use our services. Now if we can reassure them, then they are more likely to continue to fly, so I have no real problem with the program itself, just make sure the guys follow gun handling SOP's, the same way they would follow flying SOP's.
I'm intrigued also by the question raised regarding whether a captain has the right to refuse to allow a FO from the program to carry his weapon in flight?
Modern weapons are extremely safe, and will not go off of their own accord. It's rather simple, no pull trigger, no bang!
And as for it being mechanically faulty, again exceedingly unlikely. These weapons are drop tested from 6 feet, both cocked and uncocked. The German police issue weapon, which is effectively the same as the weapon carried in the program, did not exhibit a drop induced discharge in over 1000 drop tests with a round chambered and the hammer cocked. These tests were onto a steel backed concrete block. And as for wear, some of the early examples were tested through 30'000 rounds of standard amunition and 6000 proof rounds without any adverse effects.
So, we have to conclude that the captain committed the cardinal sin of sticking his finger inside the trigger guard whilst not "on target"
What he was doing playing with his weapon during final approach is a different matter entirely!
As for the benefits or otherwise of the program, I'm of the opinion that is has no real security benefit, but it might provide a certain amount of reassurance to the travelling public. And as pilots, our jobs depend on the fare-paying public continuing to want to use our services. Now if we can reassure them, then they are more likely to continue to fly, so I have no real problem with the program itself, just make sure the guys follow gun handling SOP's, the same way they would follow flying SOP's.
I'm intrigued also by the question raised regarding whether a captain has the right to refuse to allow a FO from the program to carry his weapon in flight?
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silverhawk
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So we are happy to accept a discharge in every half million sectors then?
Real security happens at the check in desk, do it right. Profiling!
Posing with your penis extension, oops sorry weapon, on the flight deck was always going to culminate in this sort of incident. Maybe after the election marathon in the US this policy will be overturned.
Nothing like dealing with prejudice. F/A's have their prejudices against the program. I love hearing them say "wow, he's in the program? I never would have suspected it." Then they talk about how decent, normal, etc, etc the guy is.
They seem to have the same issues that you do. It's not some ego or macho issue that gets folks to join the program.
And no, there's no joy in any 'AD' or 'ND'. It's just not the high risk all the hand wringers try to make it out to be.
Profiling? Hahahahahahahah. Obviously you havn't lived in the U.S. That word is banned...
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So we are happy to accept a discharge in every half million sectors then?
Real security happens at the check in desk, do it right. Profiling!
Posing with your penis extension, oops sorry weapon, on the flight deck was always going to culminate in this sort of incident. Maybe after the election marathon in the US this policy will be overturned.
Nothing like dealing with prejudice. F/A's have their prejudices against the program. I love hearing them say "wow, he's in the program? I never would have suspected it." Then they talk about how decent, normal, etc, etc the guy is.
They seem to have the same issues that you do. It's not some ego or macho issue that gets folks to join the program.
And no, there's no joy in any 'AD' or 'ND'. It's just not the high risk all the hand wringers try to make it out to be.
Profiling? Hahahahahahahah. Obviously you havn't lived in the U.S. That word is banned...
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matt_hooks
Wunderbra
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So, we have to conclude that the captain committed the cardinal sin of sticking his finger inside the trigger guard whilst not "on target"
So, you're a professional pilot, right? A plane crashes. Do you draw conclusions from the newspapers or do you wait to find out what the investigators uncover from their investigation?
We don't "have to conclude" that the pilot had his finger on the trigger. You might want to believe that based on the limitations of your imagination but that doesn't mean it happened that way.
Wunderbra
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So, we have to conclude that the captain committed the cardinal sin of sticking his finger inside the trigger guard whilst not "on target"
So, you're a professional pilot, right? A plane crashes. Do you draw conclusions from the newspapers or do you wait to find out what the investigators uncover from their investigation?
We don't "have to conclude" that the pilot had his finger on the trigger. You might want to believe that based on the limitations of your imagination but that doesn't mean it happened that way.
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Tongue totally in cheek
When Fox/CNN get hold of this,
The obvious solution is to have both pilots armed! That will make the flight twice as safe.
And if the FO "accidentally" discharges, you can sort him out right away! Conversely, if it's the captain that takes a wild shot - you in the right seat should "take control" appropriately!
Just in jest! Flak jacket on and running!
The obvious solution is to have both pilots armed! That will make the flight twice as safe.
And if the FO "accidentally" discharges, you can sort him out right away! Conversely, if it's the captain that takes a wild shot - you in the right seat should "take control" appropriately!
Just in jest! Flak jacket on and running!
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I'm intrigued also by the question raised regarding whether a captain has the right to refuse to allow a FO from the program to carry his weapon in flight?
Recent incidents have shown that the TSA can keep you off the schedule indefinitely if you argue with a gate agent and they deem you to be a "security risk". Not even the union can save you from this one. I don't think messing with an FFDO would get any less response but I'm not aware of an instance where this has been tested.
In fact that is probably the exact logic our 'fair and balanced' fox news would use!
The gun lovers on this forum keep bleating about how a bullet hole is smaller than the outflow valve.
So what ! it doesn't have to be a very big hole to maim or kill you.
Furthermore, losing a cockpit window would be quite a lot bigger than your outflow valve.
Typical right wing, redneck logic, while trying to defend their ridiculous position, their love of guns blinds them to all reason.
Think how safe we will be when all of us carry guns, we could start with our children in school, obviously the system is working well so far !
This tragic thinking is responsible for an ever increasing trail of death and destruction in this country.
This same mentality has us in a lose lose position in IRAQ, faithfully led there by our idiot in chief.
Unless this program is cancelled ASAP this will happen again with potentially catastrophic results.
The gun lovers on this forum keep bleating about how a bullet hole is smaller than the outflow valve.
So what ! it doesn't have to be a very big hole to maim or kill you.
Furthermore, losing a cockpit window would be quite a lot bigger than your outflow valve.
Typical right wing, redneck logic, while trying to defend their ridiculous position, their love of guns blinds them to all reason.
Think how safe we will be when all of us carry guns, we could start with our children in school, obviously the system is working well so far !
This tragic thinking is responsible for an ever increasing trail of death and destruction in this country.
This same mentality has us in a lose lose position in IRAQ, faithfully led there by our idiot in chief.
Unless this program is cancelled ASAP this will happen again with potentially catastrophic results.