Pardon the Loud Noise, Captain...

[DesiPilot]

When I was flying in States I flew with some captains who were FFDO. Honestly, most of the first officers hated flying with FFDO. Not because they were pain to fly with, but becauseof the fact that we had to take extra steps everytime we opened the cockpit door. Before we could let anyone in the cockpit he'd have to put the gun away and lock it. Too much work just to go and take a piss. So we tried to avoid the FFDO's.

I guess it is a good programme, but than again, never heard an FFDO using his/her authority.

[Anotherflapoperator]

Capot, sorry mate, you are miles off track. Most older sub-machine guns operate on API, advanced Primer Ignition. You have to be very unlucky to drop it butt first enough to get the bolt to fall back enough to clear the back of the top catridge but not enough to reach the sear. If you did manage that feat, then yes, it might fire ONE off, but the recoil would actually be slightly more thna usual, due to the reduced momentum of the bolt accelerating for a shorter distance, and thus would easily clear the sear and stop in the loaded and cocked back state.

Many other SMGs will do precisely the same, from UZI, to Ingram M10/11, L9 sterling of even MP38/40 types. The MP5 Heckler&Kock series will not as they have a closed bolt delayed recoil action.

Revolvers generally do not have a heavy enough hammer to be able to fall back and operate the cylinder rotating mechanism as well. The worst I'd expect any revolver dropped hard butt first to do was half cock.

Self loading semi-auto pistols are also difficult to discharge by dropping, even M1911 colts. However it is easier to achieve with older guns. M1911 types use a firing pin that is shorter than it's hole, so the lowered hammer will push it flush with the chamber face. The momentum of the pin carries it through to fire the cartridge, and it will then retract to allow the rear of the cartridge to fall with the barrel in the short recoil swinging link action that the colt uses. The (Modern?) 1926 designed Browning Hi-Power uses a cam but similar pin.

Newer designs with interlocks that positively lock the pin from moving under impulse, inclue Walther types like the P38, and earlier models too. It's not just fancy half plastic ego-9mm weapons that are well designed, plenty of old museum quality weapons were thought out properly and designed to be carried safely too.

I've been out of it too long to really understand the workings of modern Glocks and Smith&wesson Semi autos, but don't knock the older guns (literally) unless you know them well.

I'd also wonder about a possible ammunition fault in this case. Too easy to blame the handler, especially if he's American. The jolt from loading, or the jolt from dropping a safety lever which would lock the pin in place then drop the hammer on a modern double action gun, shouldn't cause a cap to ignite, but it has been known.

If it was handled properly, I'd expect a flat slug and mess of sooty paper in the bottom of his flight case.......

[Capot]

Anotherflapoperator..

I think you're saying almost what I was saying! A properly designed weapon will not fire if dropped for the reasons you state.

The Sten, which I trained on as a boy before the Stirling replaced it, was a cheap and cheerful wartime expedient that any workshop could make. It's still "home-made" in Asia, I believe. It had a sear, of course, but on occasions the only way of stopping it if the sear was very worn was to pull the magazine off.

[Tigs2]

Anotherflap...

'd also wonder about a possible ammunition fault in this case. Too easy to blame the handler, especially if he's American. The jolt from loading, or the jolt from dropping a safety lever which would lock the pin in place then drop the hammer on a modern double action gun, shouldn't cause a cap to ignite, but it has been known.

There should not have been a round in the chamber! Simple really.

[wileydog3]

I hope the retribution is swift and harsh.

Huck, what will that accomplish?

[warp factor]

The plane was never in danger....wonder where the round went?

[wileydog3]

411A

as boys and their toys do not mix well.

If they are 'boys' and the guns are 'toys', neither should be in the cockpit.

[wileydog3]

Having one in the chamber is just as irresponsible as having one in and the thing cocked IMHO. In fact, why did the 'flying leatherneck' think it was acceptable to have the thing on board in the first place?

So, you would suggest that you may carry a weapon but not be ready to use it?

As for why he had it, you may remember 9-11 when suicidal thugs invaded a defenseless cockpit.

[wileydog3]

Well, I would say that the lack of atacks is because the real terrorists get the message. Namely, that trying to hi-jack an airplane is not worth the effort. Hey, wait a minute.......That would mean that the number of hi-jacks in Europe, where pilots are not armed, should be on the rise.

Classic non sequitur but nice try.

[wileydog3]

I know "It`s an American thing" but if they must take one with them it should be locked away. There will be time to grab it if need due to the time that will be taken to get thoroug the dlight deck door

Tristar500

And how much time do you think it takes to breech a door? Minutes, seconds, a second or two? Before you answer, i would suggest unless you are former EOD or are very familiar with some of the tactics used to defeat doors, your estimate may be terribly inaccurate.

[Finn47]

One year ago I read an article about the FFDO program by the Belleville News-Herald, now unavailable. Supposedly about 8000 pilots have completed the voluntary training - in their own free time. Heckler & Koch .40 handguns provided by the TSA, to be worn at the hip when inside the locked cockpit, to be stowed away for toilet breaks & such.

[wileydog3]

- Personally, I can think of at least three pilots I know that are in the program and many of their cohorts feel they don't have the maturity or self-control to be empowered with a firearm.

- It may have changed, but previously the psychiatrist eval was over the phone.

- I have one F/O that likes to make a big production of pulling out his weapon, placing it on the tray table while sorting out his lock box and reloads, then finally putting the damnable thing on his belt or back in his bag. (Just unzip and show everyone what you have if you need that kind of validation, Kimosabe.)

You have avenues to address this problem. Just notify the FFDO office of such antics and it will be taken care of. If you have concerns about certain individuals and their lack of maturity, just make a call. The program is too valuable to let a few lone rangers screw it up.

Now retired and out of the program, I can say training was VERY focused, very professional and no one was willing to take any crap. I can also say everyone I knew in the program were not qualified over the phone.

[Capt.KAOS]

What's the need of a gun on the flight deck if you have a closed armoured door? Do they storm out of the cockpit if something happens in the cabin?

[AKAAB]

What's the need of a gun on the flight deck if you have a closed armoured door? Do they storm out of the cockpit if something happens in the cabin?

No, they do not. And, that is the fallacy of the argument where they ask what would the world be like if the pilots had been armed on 9/11. Back then we were trained to cooperate with hijackers, so the pilots let them into the cockpit. Today, we don't. We are supposed to stay locked in the cockpit and get the plane on the ground as fast as we can. No Rambo's need apply.

Have you ever wondered why the bank doesn't station a guard inside the vault at night? It's because the vault, for all intents and purposes, is made impenetrable when it is locked. The same needs to be done with the cockpit door.

[Chugalug2]

In an effort to emphasise the positive, might I commend the attached two videos. They both include some exemplary lessons in good gun handling. Perhaps they could be worked into the FFDO programme to some advantage?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7KtEdoelqA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDXcJ1kAgNw

[preduk]

I don't agree with pilots carrying fire arms...

However, if the US are that scared of men in caves then I wouldn't mind having armed security officers on board the aircraft pretending to be normal airline passengers. They could switch from flight to flight so that the "terrorists" wont know which flight they are on board. I believe t hat would be a deterrent.

It wouldn't work in the UK anyway... Ryanair would require all crew to purchase their own weapon

[wileydog3]

Have you ever wondered why the bank doesn't station a guard inside the vault at night? It's because the vault, for all intents and purposes, is made impenetrable when it is locked. The same needs to be done with the cockpit door. AKAAB

And just how does one do this installing of an impenetrable door?

[DocSullivan]

For what it's worth, here is the link to info on the FFDO program on the TSA website. It might answer some questions about what the training entails:

Federal Flight Deck Officers - TSA website

And here is the TSA's public statement about the US Airways incident:

TSA Statement on US Airways Flight #1536 - TSA news release

Looks like that newspaper article quoted directly from the TSA statement.

[Captain_djaffar]

A pro-gun person said a while ago "An armed society is a polite society".

They must have beautiful manners in Baghdad then.

Analysis of armed society in the past century,not necessarily only in the USA,but everywhere,includes more 'honourable' use of arms (knifes and guns)

Nowadays you eat 2 or 3 bullets in the skull for few quids,stab because you had the latest ipod,or simply someone testing his new beretta.

I still remember someone who went to afghanistan in the past well before war, relating how a 10 year old kid painted his grandmother with an AK-47 owned by his dad,the reason being he was refused more food.

I can understand understand societies differ in mentality and geographically,but at the end,the result is the same: death.

[gadgetjunkie]

FFDO's have 1 accidental discharge on an aircraft since the inception of the program , and no deaths ,that is a very good saftey record when compared to other US law enforcement agencies .

In 2001 there were five deaths in special weapons and tactics training exercises in this country as cited by the National Tactical Officers Association. These officers were very experienced and well trained .

Below are some more facts from the US Dept of Justice. Their departments had a total of 102 accidental discharges in just 3 years . Not to knock them , just shows how easy it can happen , and to show that FFDO's are doing a great job .

The LEOs who enforce federal laws generally carry firearms. During FY 2000 through FY 2003, the components reported that 267 shooting incidents occurred during enforcement and other operations, including training, cleaning weapons, and while acting as Peace Officers.16 Of these 267 shooting incidents, 105 were intentional discharges at suspects during enforcement operations, 14 were unintentional discharges during enforcement operations, 60 were intentional discharges at animals (e.g., vicious dogs, injured deer), and 88 were unintentional discharges during non-enforcement activities