Ryanair B738 off runway in Limoges (LFBL/France)
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Air France cancellations
What's happening today at Limoges?
According to the airport's own website Af seem to have cancelled their eight flights today, but FR still seem to be operating their two flights.
According to the airport's own website Af seem to have cancelled their eight flights today, but FR still seem to be operating their two flights.
regards
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Over wing emergency exits were not used. I was forward of them so do not know if any attempt was made to use them. Passengers did not remove shoes - as is suggested by emergency leaflet - just as well in the circs.
RH chutes were unstable in the wind, ie did not remain on the ground and could have been a real danger to a light passenger or child using them on their own.
RH chutes were unstable in the wind, ie did not remain on the ground and could have been a real danger to a light passenger or child using them on their own.
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LIMpass,
how was the evacuation handled by the crew?
Was it initiated by the cockpit as you can recall?
What did the crew do/say just after stopping?What happened inside the aircraft?
how was the evacuation handled by the crew?
Was it initiated by the cockpit as you can recall?
What did the crew do/say just after stopping?What happened inside the aircraft?
As ever some interesting questions are raised by this incident.
Obviously with hindsight they should never have attempted the approach or more realistically at some point they should have gone around.
Any discussion about Ryanair always brings out a colourful range of emotions from the usual parties. Fact is the weather was unfavourable and the runway slippery. If we assume flaps 40, medium braking action and autobrake 3 my performance figures (for the 737-700) indicate a landing distance just under 2300 metres for a ten knot tailwind.
I Know you can argue the other way using max manual braking, perfect test pilot technique etc. But with a tailwind component a bit higher than expected, then the conditions were at best marginal. Reversers a bit late and you have a very similar situation to Southwest in Chicago or Air France in Toronto.
Our job is to use all the information at our disposal. Whilst accepting the caveats about progress page 2 wind information I certainly would not ignore it, particularly if the runway is wet! If in doubt go-around. Easier said than done, but echoing the thoughts of a poster on another thread we need to be more go-around minded.
With tailwind our manual clearly states Vref +5. If the tower reports a gusting crosswind varying between 260 and 310 for runway 21 I would be interested to know what Ryanair or other companies recommend adding to Vref.
I look forward to the official report but in the mean time hope we can all learn from this.
Happy landings!
Obviously with hindsight they should never have attempted the approach or more realistically at some point they should have gone around.
Any discussion about Ryanair always brings out a colourful range of emotions from the usual parties. Fact is the weather was unfavourable and the runway slippery. If we assume flaps 40, medium braking action and autobrake 3 my performance figures (for the 737-700) indicate a landing distance just under 2300 metres for a ten knot tailwind.
I Know you can argue the other way using max manual braking, perfect test pilot technique etc. But with a tailwind component a bit higher than expected, then the conditions were at best marginal. Reversers a bit late and you have a very similar situation to Southwest in Chicago or Air France in Toronto.
Our job is to use all the information at our disposal. Whilst accepting the caveats about progress page 2 wind information I certainly would not ignore it, particularly if the runway is wet! If in doubt go-around. Easier said than done, but echoing the thoughts of a poster on another thread we need to be more go-around minded.
With tailwind our manual clearly states Vref +5. If the tower reports a gusting crosswind varying between 260 and 310 for runway 21 I would be interested to know what Ryanair or other companies recommend adding to Vref.
I look forward to the official report but in the mean time hope we can all learn from this.
Happy landings!
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LIMpass, if you find the time perhaps you could try again, I think we would all appreciate.It will make an "interesting" comparison with the "official" version.
However I assume the mods would NOT have a problem with your posting, they can occasionaly be a bit sensitive to any posting which may show RYR up in a poor light. This could be due to A - the possibility of legal action B- advertising revenue gratefully received for those lovely informative little banner ads you see above C- a bit of both.
As far as I am aware the PIC was a recently appointed IRE / TRE, so forget the inexperience scenario. Of course this also means he could (probably was ) be line-training which opens up a few other avenues of discussion. Just to reassure the Sabena lovers (or haters) he wasn't a Belge, but you are fairly close ( Geography wise).
However I assume the mods would NOT have a problem with your posting, they can occasionaly be a bit sensitive to any posting which may show RYR up in a poor light. This could be due to A - the possibility of legal action B- advertising revenue gratefully received for those lovely informative little banner ads you see above C- a bit of both.
As far as I am aware the PIC was a recently appointed IRE / TRE, so forget the inexperience scenario. Of course this also means he could (probably was ) be line-training which opens up a few other avenues of discussion. Just to reassure the Sabena lovers (or haters) he wasn't a Belge, but you are fairly close ( Geography wise).
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"LIMpass - do you know how far in you touched down?"
I cannot say for definite. However, having seen another flght land there in normal conditions I surmise that we landed further in than it did. It seems unlikely we were in contact with the runway all the way from that point to where the plane finally ended up. But then speed has to be taken into account and we were really travelling.
I cannot say for definite. However, having seen another flght land there in normal conditions I surmise that we landed further in than it did. It seems unlikely we were in contact with the runway all the way from that point to where the plane finally ended up. But then speed has to be taken into account and we were really travelling.
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Pilots in general carry too touch speed into the landing. Vfly plus some for wife and kids. I would say that maybe 1 in 10 ryr pilots touch down at ref. (next time u fly check ). This is mostly due to incorrect technique. The 8 and 900 both have an extra 5 kts built in for tail strike protection so there is no room for extra speed, tail wind, wet runway, long landing and in correct technique. I will bet a months wages that incorrect technique is a factor as was the Emirates tail strike in SA 3 years ago.
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Re: In My Last Airline post
"Pilots in general carry too touch speed into the landing. Vfly plus some for wife and kids. I would say that maybe 1 in 10 ryr pilots touch down at ref. (next time u fly check ). This is mostly due to incorrect technique. The 8 and 900 both have an extra 5 kts built in for tail strike protection so there is no room for extra speed, tail wind, wet runway, long landing and in correct technique. I will bet a months wages that incorrect technique is a factor as was the Emirates tail strike in SA 3 years ago."
The FCTM states that the Gust factor Should not be bled off on touchdown so it does appear that this rule is not hard and fast.
Re selecting Reverse thrust quickly/immediatly on touchdown also has its pitfalls. Once reverser selected you cannot do a Go-Around/Balked landing so in effect you are commiting yourself to the landing roll....is that always wise?? Perhaps get a second or two feel of the runway state and then get the reversers out....just a thought.
FCTM page 1.13
"The minimum command speed setting with Autothrottle disconnected is VREF+5 knots. The gust correction should be maintained to touchdown while the steady headwind correction should be bled off as the airplane approaches touchdown"
The FCTM states that the Gust factor Should not be bled off on touchdown so it does appear that this rule is not hard and fast.
Re selecting Reverse thrust quickly/immediatly on touchdown also has its pitfalls. Once reverser selected you cannot do a Go-Around/Balked landing so in effect you are commiting yourself to the landing roll....is that always wise?? Perhaps get a second or two feel of the runway state and then get the reversers out....just a thought.
FCTM page 1.13
"The minimum command speed setting with Autothrottle disconnected is VREF+5 knots. The gust correction should be maintained to touchdown while the steady headwind correction should be bled off as the airplane approaches touchdown"
Last edited by Catabolic IBS; 28th Mar 2008 at 10:49.
Re selecting Reverse thrust quickly/immediatly on touchdown also has its pitfalls. Once reverser selected you cannot do a Go-Around/Balked landing so in effect you are commiting yourself to the landing roll....is that always wise?? Perhaps get a second or two feel of the runway state and then get the reversers out....just a thought.
Also if by any chance the speedbrake has not been armed (not entirely unheard of) selection of reverse thrust will deploy the speedbrakes which are very necessary to achieve the scheduled landing distance.
Also whilst we are talking about reverse thrust maintain at least reverse idle until you are sure you can stop of the runway. If you cancel reverse it takes time to get the engine back in reverse config again - could make all the difference.
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Just a note about the autobrake and reverse thrust relationship on the 737NG. Selecting reverse thrust when using autobrakes does not increase the deceleration rate. Autobrake pressure is reduced to maintain a fixed deceleration rate.
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quote: Just a note about the autobrake and reverse thrust relationship on the 737NG. Selecting reverse thrust when using autobrakes does not increase the deceleration rate. Autobrake pressure is reduced to maintain a fixed deceleration rate. Unquote
True for the lower settings. But what about brakes max?
True for the lower settings. But what about brakes max?
Last edited by sleeper; 28th Mar 2008 at 14:24. Reason: editorial
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Not quite correct in this example TolTol.
The a/c will indeed reduce wheel auto braking upon selection of reverse, if and only if it knows there is plenty of runway ahead of you, (based on IRS position).
If you are in a situation where an over-run is likely, selecting reverse will improve deceleration. Wheel auto-braking will remain at a continuous rate (or even increase above its selected setting, although I'm not sure about that one)
The a/c will indeed reduce wheel auto braking upon selection of reverse, if and only if it knows there is plenty of runway ahead of you, (based on IRS position).
If you are in a situation where an over-run is likely, selecting reverse will improve deceleration. Wheel auto-braking will remain at a continuous rate (or even increase above its selected setting, although I'm not sure about that one)
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Where does that info come from? My 737NG FCOM only says
"Four levels of deceleration can be selected for landing. However, on dry runways, the maximum autobrake deceleration rate in the landing mode is less than that produced by full pedal braking.
After landing, autobrake application begins when:
• both forward thrust levers are retarded to IDLE
• the main wheels spin–up.
Note: Landing autobrake settings may be selected after touchdown prior to
decelerating through 60 kts of ground speed. Braking initiates immediately
if the above conditions are met.
To maintain the selected landing deceleration rate, autobrake pressure is reduced as other controls, such as thrust reversers and spoilers, contribute to total deceleration. The deceleration level can be changed (without disarming the system) by rotating the selector. The autobrake system brings the airplane to a complete stop unless the braking is terminated by the pilot."
"Four levels of deceleration can be selected for landing. However, on dry runways, the maximum autobrake deceleration rate in the landing mode is less than that produced by full pedal braking.
After landing, autobrake application begins when:
• both forward thrust levers are retarded to IDLE
• the main wheels spin–up.
Note: Landing autobrake settings may be selected after touchdown prior to
decelerating through 60 kts of ground speed. Braking initiates immediately
if the above conditions are met.
To maintain the selected landing deceleration rate, autobrake pressure is reduced as other controls, such as thrust reversers and spoilers, contribute to total deceleration. The deceleration level can be changed (without disarming the system) by rotating the selector. The autobrake system brings the airplane to a complete stop unless the braking is terminated by the pilot."
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????The a/c will indeed reduce wheel auto braking upon selection of reverse, if and only if it knows there is plenty of runway ahead of you, (based on IRS position).???
This is a new one for me. When did that modification appear? I dare state it is not the case.
This is a new one for me. When did that modification appear? I dare state it is not the case.