Ryanair B738 off runway in Limoges (LFBL/France)

[captjns]

hec70

Wasn't there an MD80 or something similar that went off the end of the RWY in gusty and wet conditions a few years ago in the US, because the speedbrake failed to deploy on landing?

Probably the final link in the chain to be broken. This aircraft was destined to a fatal end well before the auto speed brake was not armed.

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id...12X18961&key=1

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_i...99MA060&akey=1

[hec7or]

thanks cptjns

Yes, I think that's the accident featured in the TV prog. I seem to remember that reverse thrust reduces directional stability with rear engine airplanes but not with wing mounted engines as on the 738.

Not arming the speedbrake in the before landing checks turned out to be the fatal error caused by too high workload on the approach.

Wonder if any lessons could apply here with the human factors side of it, workload management could be a big factor if plans had to be changed at the last minute.

[crab]

Interesting to read that fatigue was considered to be a contributory factor in the MD80 accident.Any lessons to be learnt there?

[lotuselanse]

We flew to Altenburg with FR last week. Left STN late, played catch-up and had a hard, Fast (Bang-bounce) landing, reverse thrust and VERY heavy breaking, noticed windsock indicated a down wind landing (Why??)
Virtually all the passengers in the area I was seated looked startled.
Flight back to STN was fine.
I am a non commercial pilot and had no access to an in cabin ASI(!!) (tho might use my GPS next time!!) - but found the landing worrying.
Incidentally, have flown in to Skiathos on A320 (Airworld) and later TCX A320 and Sabre 737-200, Not to mention countless flights in to LCY, PLH and SOU on F27 / F50, Dash8-300's 146's Arjs, And Barons / DHC-6's on short rough strips in Kenya, DHC-6 and Islanders to the IOS etc.... and never had a landing like this....
Sorry if it has come across as Ryanair bashing...

[in my last airline]

Here's a question; There is no PAPI/VASI at Limoge would you follow the GS to touchdown or eyeball the descent to achieve 50ft over the numbers?

Bear in mind, if you say follow the GS, the AAIB will say, 'thank you very much for helping with our investigation, why were you following GS below minimums?'

[captjns]

Bear in mind, if you say follow the GS, the AAIB will say, 'thank you very much for helping with our investigation, why were you following GS below minimums?'

Because you are allowed to.

[fireflybob]

We flew to Altenburg with FR last week. Left STN late, played catch-up and had a hard, Fast (Bang-bounce) landing, reverse thrust and VERY heavy breaking, noticed windsock indicated a down wind landing (Why??)
Virtually all the passengers in the area I was seated looked startled.

Let's take all of those points in turn:

"Left STN late"....yes sometimes this happens with all airlines.

"played catch-up" presume this means trying to make up time. Why not? Whilst safety is always priority one it is also part of a professional pilots remit to operate economically and wherever possible minimise delays.

"had a hard, Fast (Bang-bounce) landing" - how do you know - did you have a G meter and an airspeed indicator in the cabin with you - did you know was the Vref for the approach was and what wind increments were required for this approach?

"reverse thrust and VERY heavy breaking"....application of reverse thrust is normal after touchdown!....are you refering to the decleration rate? Autobrake is very effective on the B737-800.

"Windsock indicated a downwind landing (Why??)" - Why not? What was the tailwind component? Are you implying that the a/c was not being operated in accordance with Performance A?

"Virtually all the passengers in the area I was seated looked startled" - is this objectively a parameter to decide whether the operation was being conducted safely or not?

Perhaps one of the unfairest part of airline flying is the feel of the landing. There is a difference between a firm touchdown (and even the most experienced aviators can get it wrong sometimes) and a heavy landing.

Hope this helps.

[captplaystation]

I have it on good authority that the Capt involved in Limoge has not been disciplined, therefore I think it is safe to assume that the aircraft was being operated correctly, and that the cause was more to do with runway conditions (or lack of timely/ accurate information) rather than any action taken/or not by the crew.
It was reported to me that the company were unhappy with some aspects of the evacuation ( or perhaps even the decision to do so , as I believe there were no life-threatening factors after the incident. . . apart from catching a cold or messing up your nice shoes) but so far they have not chosen to share the lessons learned with the "great unwashed", so as usual this is all 3rd hand. Surely someone could produce something on this to give us something to read before we print the roster on Friday? otherwise why have a safety Dept ?
Another hopefully accurate snippet was that the company had backed away from their somewhat draconian stance with the Capt in the East Midlands rally-cross demonstration, and a short period in the RHS was over , and he was now back in his rightful place.
And, before some smart-asses question that last statement, as far as I am told he reported the incident, and was given the all-clear by an engineer before departing, his only sin appears to have been to omit or be tardy with paperwork, and to perhaps have been a bit less meek than they wanted in the disciplinary meeting.
I am sure any "real pilot's" will be heartened by this news, and the other armchair tw@ts can keep their opinion to themselves Ta very much.

[Expressflight]

fireflybob

I think you're being rather hard on lotuselance.

I don't see why a frequent flier cannot judge whether a landing is unusually firm or that braking seemed fiercer than normal. If the windsock was noticeably showing a downwind element that would raise my eyebrows a little.

I make no comment on the implications of what he observed, nor wish to score points, but let's not be quite so dismissive.

[deweoon01]

Why any of the overwings exits havent been open ? Did they brief paxs?

[captplaystation]

Try reading the rest of this thread and you will find the answers, although our "passenger" LIMpass has been notably short of time to tell us the "whole story" as requested. . . . Hmmn

[slip and turn]

captplaystation, correct me if I am wrong, but you are indeed a Ryanair pilot, aren't you and have said so numerous times on PPRuNe? And haven't I usually detected you are usually more broadminded than this, or am I reading you wrong?

You said:

I have it on good authority that the Capt involved in Limoge has not been disciplined, therefore I think it is safe to assume that the aircraft was being operated correctly, and that the cause was more to do with runway conditions (or lack of timely/ accurate information) rather than any action taken/or not by the crew.

What that boils down to if no-one made a mistake on the flightdeck is "lack of timely/accurate information (about runway conditions)"

I am sure you still agree that it was a disgraceful incident?

It appears that you are saying after things resulted in a disgraceful incident, that Ryanair holds the airport operator responsible just like ultimately Bristol got caned a year or so ago?

Wonderful thing, hindsight. Has Ryanair not landed at Limoges in doubtful conditions previously, with hindsight?

Right ok.

And Ryanair promises to liaise effectively with the airport operator so as not to find yourselves in that position again?

Ok that's good then.

[captplaystation]

I have no idea who Ryanair is holding responsible, merely glad, on a personal and professional level that the crew appear to be not guilty of hanging themselves (never a pretty sight)
Regional airports do seem to be guilty of failing to assess the friction characteristics of their R/W'S until "after the event", whether this is due to lack of legislation to oblige them, or financial considerations, I have no idea.
Of course , prior to RYR most of these places seldom saw anything bigger than an ATR42 so it wasn't of as much interest as it is now.
It has to be said, that many "Trumpton Airports" are a little lacking in the area of reports of braking action etc, and usually it falls on the crew's previous experience/ word of mouth/ notification by the company, to let everyone in on the secret. Over on REPAWEB (which unfortunately you can't acess if you are not "one of us" ) a few guys said they had found Limoges a bit dodgy when wet, but most just thought it was just "one of those things" on the day and didn't file a safety report, so who is to blame there ? . . . .well a bit us, and depending on what would have been done (probably not a lot) a bit them.
As I said, we have been given the "mushroom treatment" so far over this incident, don't know if any lessons have been learned, just hope they share them with us if they have been.
I am merely happy that my colleagues appear not to have screwed up, not defending any possible future attempts by my humble employer to deflect blame from wherever it is due.

[lotuselanse]

Expressflight...
Thank-you for your measured response to my post....
As I posted, this wasn't an attempt to bash-up Ryanair, and having flown for over 30 years this felt the heaviest landing (with the one exception into NBO on a BA747 in the 80's).
I attempted to balance what I was posting with some details of the short-strip exposure I have had in to SOU, BRR, Scillies, LCY, Skiathos, not to mention the 1700+ hours logged as a non-commercial pilot.
Fireflybob.....
I appreciate that we all work in commercial environments and again I will state that this wasn't a "bash up Ryanair" post.
My work involves dynamic risk assesment... I have not suggested that the flight to Altenburg was Unsafe, was outside parameters or anything similar.
As a regular user of Ryanair and Easyjet on the NG737 I have also become familiar with what is normal. This landing was fast, hard, and very heavy on the brakes (seemed to be normal braking then heavy).

[I Just Drive]

Sorry to thread creep, but I agree that you can judge heavy braking and firm touchdown as a passenger but theres no way you can judge speed. It sounds (without knowing) the crew elected for the ils runway and accepted what could only be minimal tailwind (a/c limitations). Its a steeper glide slope onto a downhill runway with a turnoff 2/3 of the way down that you don't want to miss if youre late. On the face of it, totally normal operations bearing in mind everyone can drive it in from time to time. And that wasnt a bad time to do a firm touchdown either. Anyway back to Limoge..................

[LIMpass]

"It was reported to me that the company were unhappy with some aspects of the evacuation ( or perhaps even the decision to do so , as I believe there were no life-threatening factors after the incident. . . apart from catching a cold or messing up your nice shoes) but so far they have not chosen to share the lessons learned with the "great unwashed", so as usual this is all 3rd hand." - Captplaystation

"Try reading the rest of this thread and you will find the answers, although our "passenger" LIMpass has been notably short of time to tell us the "whole story" as requested. . . . Hmmn" - Captplaystation


My last post here, I believe, was an enquiry as to what authorities, if any, would be investigating this incident. Nobody replied to that.
My efforts to find out what, if any authorities in France or Ireland are investigating this incident have met with complete silence from regulatory bodies in both countries.

In my naivete I believed that passengers would have been contacted if only for the purposes of an audit of how well the evacuation was conducted. By the way, if anyone is listening, IT WAS A SHAMBLES. I would force Ryanair to re-train all cabin crew in emergency evacuation procedure. But I'm only a passenger.

Do airlines, Ryanair included, saftety audit airports before they fly their aircraft into them? Or do they just require minimum/no fees and a strip of tarmac long enough to land on in most conditions? Do they have a duty of care to their passengers?

I can only conclude that nobody cares. Not pilots, not cabin crew, not airlines not airports and not regulatory authorities. Maybe this is because, as the saying goes, nobody died. And as long as the buck can be passed around and around then it's nobody's fault. The bigger reality is commerce not safety.

For what it's worth I believe that one day there will be a serious "incident" at one of these European regional airports 30-60mins away from a centre of population and hospitals. Then it will be found that the distance from medical personnel and treatment centres results in unecessary suffering and death.

If an airport like Limoges can only leave able-bodied passengers milling around at the end of a runway, a mile from the terminal, in the rain and hail, then what chance has it of coping with a damaged aircraft and seriously injured passengers at the end of the runway?

And the terminal building, do not forget, will be full - ie impassable - with passengers waiting to depart on the now damaged aircraft.

I have waited to give the "whole story" to the appropriate authorities. Nobody wants to know. Passengers like myself get on planes and we trust that staff, airlines, airports and regulators know what they are doing. Five weeks after the landing of our flight at Limoges I no longer believe that.
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Another week... no replies here.

[LIMpass]

Another week... no replies here. Another 'Way, hey, hey, oops... BUMP' landing at another regional airport under my belt.

No need for safety investigations when few "Keep off the grass" tshirts for Ryanair crew should sort things out.

[top jock]

LIMpass,

Apart from here who have you contacted about this?

Contact the IAA and ask them

[SPA83]

OACI Annexe 13
COMPTE RENDU PRÉLIMINAIRE
RESPONSABILITÉ DE L’ÉTAT
QUI MÈNE L’ENQUÊTE
Accidents survenus à des aéronefs de plus de 2 250 kg
7.1 Lorsque l’aéronef accidenté est un aéronef d’une masse
maximale supérieure à 2 250 kg, l’État qui mène l’enquête
enverra le compte rendu préliminaire:
a) à l’État d’immatriculation ou à l’État d’occurrence, selon
le cas;
b) à l’État de l’exploitant;
c) à l’État de conception;
d) à l’État de construction;
e) à tout État qui aura fourni des renseignements pertinents,
des moyens importants ou des experts;
f) à l’Organisation de l’aviation civile internationale.
Envoi
7.4 Le compte rendu préliminaire sera envoyé par
télécopieur, courrier électronique ou poste aérienne dans les
30 jours qui suivent la date de l’accident, à moins que le compte
rendu de données d’accident/incident n’ait été envoyé avant cette
date. Lorsque se posent des questions intéressant directement la
sécurité, ce compte rendu sera envoyé dès que les renseignements
auront été obtenus et par la meilleure et la plus rapide
des voies disponibles.


So, to get the preliminary report contact Paul Louis ARSLANIAN, head of the french BEA at [email protected] Good luck…

[stator vane]

translation?

any chance of an english version?