UnitedX CRJ go-around at uncontrolled airport
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"Maybe they should start using standard phraseology in America". Iwish I knew how to do those quote-box thingies . .
I recently went as PAX SFO/PHL on the first aircraft I have met which allowed the flightdeck to connect the usual passenger audio to ground communications. Having not flown commercially in the US, I found this fascinating.
I was very impressed by the efficient manner in which a huge volume of traffic was handled by Oakland and others. However, I was a good deal less impressed by the general standard of RT procedures employed.
"Up from seventeen to thirty eight and a half, Yankee123". This was more intelligible than some of the transmissions.
VHF is anything but HiFi and clarity of reception seldom is wonderful which is why one tends to listen for expected phrases and instructions couched in standard terms rather than assimilate every individual word. This arrangement works well enough provided the standard terms and procedures are exclusively employed. Going beyond these, particularly when regional accents and other unfamiliar conditions are factored in, is inviting misunderstanding.
It is rather inconsistent to castigate foreigners for failure to observe international standards whilst permitting this level of laxity in airspace which is full of non-domestic traffic.
This sort of thing might be considered "cool". In my day it was "hip". Not likely to make a lot of difference either way to a Chinaman methinks. And it applies equally to Lee Bob in his CRJ going into Tuscaloosa as it does to some urbane character climbing out of LAX in his Triple Seven.
I recently went as PAX SFO/PHL on the first aircraft I have met which allowed the flightdeck to connect the usual passenger audio to ground communications. Having not flown commercially in the US, I found this fascinating.
I was very impressed by the efficient manner in which a huge volume of traffic was handled by Oakland and others. However, I was a good deal less impressed by the general standard of RT procedures employed.
"Up from seventeen to thirty eight and a half, Yankee123". This was more intelligible than some of the transmissions.
VHF is anything but HiFi and clarity of reception seldom is wonderful which is why one tends to listen for expected phrases and instructions couched in standard terms rather than assimilate every individual word. This arrangement works well enough provided the standard terms and procedures are exclusively employed. Going beyond these, particularly when regional accents and other unfamiliar conditions are factored in, is inviting misunderstanding.
It is rather inconsistent to castigate foreigners for failure to observe international standards whilst permitting this level of laxity in airspace which is full of non-domestic traffic.
This sort of thing might be considered "cool". In my day it was "hip". Not likely to make a lot of difference either way to a Chinaman methinks. And it applies equally to Lee Bob in his CRJ going into Tuscaloosa as it does to some urbane character climbing out of LAX in his Triple Seven.
Last edited by Gipsy Queen; 8th Mar 2008 at 19:05.
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Radio Phraseology
All seems pretty simple to me. Many aircraft accidents over the years have been found to have been caused by the use of non-standard radio calls leading to confusion, not only between different aircraft crews, but often ATC-Crew comms.
Being "cool" is fine, however when it comes to issuing instructions - clearances etc, and acknowledgment of same, there is no substitute for standard phraseology. It simply removes any ambiguity, FULLSTOP!
Being "cool" is fine, however when it comes to issuing instructions - clearances etc, and acknowledgment of same, there is no substitute for standard phraseology. It simply removes any ambiguity, FULLSTOP!
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Well at least the small aircraft was cleared to enter the runway, unlike a certain AA 777? I remember at manchester in about 2000. Poor BA pilot about half a mile out at the time looked a bit upset when this lumbering beast handbrake-turned onto the runway with the engines spooling up to full power.
I've never seen tyres folded almost onto the rims before or since!!!
I've never seen tyres folded almost onto the rims before or since!!!
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Well at least the small aircraft was cleared to enter the runway
Denver Center provided an IFR release to the aircraft. It did not clear it for takeoff or "to enter the runway." It can't, it wouldn't, it didn't. It is an uncontrolled airport, and having gotten an IFR release, the pilot would be expected to tune back to the airport advisory frequency and talk to local traffic before taking the runway. I'd expect to hear the Denver ARTCC tapes this week...
Dave
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As av8boy pointed out, just because you have an IFR ATC clearance from an uncontrolled (no-tower) airport does not provide any safety at the airport from anyone except other IFR traffic. There could be many VFR aircraft runing around the surface or in the pattern that ATC has no knowledge about. A good example is South Lake Tahoe. Oakland center has a remote freq at the unoccupied tower. Business jets call get thier clearance and normally get a hold for release. They are told to call when taxing for a release. They call and get their release and then question why the Cessna 182 is in the way for the runway. We tell them not our problem, they are the only IFR aircraft but it is up to them to stay away from the VFR's. This becomes a real mess when the IFR traffic does not go back to the Unicom prior to takeoff and departs rwy 36 while an aircraft is landing rwy 18 which is normal ops. It seems some pilots presume ATC is providing seperation service just like when a tower is open. Nothing could be further from the truth.
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I once heard a United 747 contact approach frequency at a major Australian airport:
"Melbourne Approach United XXX, outa 8 and a half for 6 and I gotta tell ya we're a little beefed up at the moment."
A somewhat puzzled response ensued from the Approach controller.
I was equally puzzled and queried friend of mine from the US and he said that United had probably breached the 250kt below 10000 speed restriction. Oh, of course, and here I was thinking he was requesting a holding pattern because the F/O hadn't finished his crew meal...
Yeah, standard phraseology could be improved on by US pilots...
"Melbourne Approach United XXX, outa 8 and a half for 6 and I gotta tell ya we're a little beefed up at the moment."
A somewhat puzzled response ensued from the Approach controller.
I was equally puzzled and queried friend of mine from the US and he said that United had probably breached the 250kt below 10000 speed restriction. Oh, of course, and here I was thinking he was requesting a holding pattern because the F/O hadn't finished his crew meal...
Yeah, standard phraseology could be improved on by US pilots...
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IF the data here is correct so far, I hope the PNF got a stern talking to. R/T over here is downright disgraceful sometimes. ATC is fines, but many pilots leave MUCH to be desired:
ATC: ABC123, contact approach on 132.25
ABC123: "thirty two and a quarter, ABC123"
I won't kill a guy for omitting the leading "1", but jeez...take some pride in your R/T.
ATC: ABC123, contact approach on 132.25
ABC123: "thirty two and a quarter, ABC123"
I won't kill a guy for omitting the leading "1", but jeez...take some pride in your R/T.
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I was downwind and told by tower to continue to the first 'black top' before turning base......I'm a brit, looked puzzled at my instructor,but even my yank instructor hadn't a clue what he meant......seems thats CB talk for a road..............
Mind if I ask where in the US this happened?
Mind if I ask where in the US this happened?
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Black top is not standard English. It is a local colloquialism that has no place in aviation. You answered your own question "most people in the US..."
Not everyone flying in the US is from the US. And not all aviators are "most people".
The point about standard phraseology is that ALL pilots understand it without question.
Not everyone flying in the US is from the US. And not all aviators are "most people".
The point about standard phraseology is that ALL pilots understand it without question.
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a book of phrases
I shouldn't be so shocked at the rotten radio phraseology.
But for you good guys and gals out there, if you want to be good at your chosen profession, BUY A COPY OF THE AIM (aeronautical information manual) and you will find clear examples of radio phrases and a pilot-controller glossary of words used in aviation.
example: WILCO
and the example at south lake tahoe is a good one (KTVL). I've flown for two airlines in the 80's that served KTVL. Back then, there was an active control tower. IT IS proof positive that aviation is getting darn sloppy for someone flying a jet to not understand how an IFR release at an uncontrolled airport works.
I'm still trying to figure out that beef business going into australia by that united pilot. and as to the black top bit, I've heard worse, but not much.
But for you good guys and gals out there, if you want to be good at your chosen profession, BUY A COPY OF THE AIM (aeronautical information manual) and you will find clear examples of radio phrases and a pilot-controller glossary of words used in aviation.
example: WILCO
and the example at south lake tahoe is a good one (KTVL). I've flown for two airlines in the 80's that served KTVL. Back then, there was an active control tower. IT IS proof positive that aviation is getting darn sloppy for someone flying a jet to not understand how an IFR release at an uncontrolled airport works.
I'm still trying to figure out that beef business going into australia by that united pilot. and as to the black top bit, I've heard worse, but not much.
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pilot controller glossary online
rather than have any of you guys spend money, look up the following on google.
the first web site listed will allow you to download the pilot controller glossary for free.
pcg.pdf
google the above and you will have something to read. words in bold face are used on the radio.
there is much more to being a good pilot than just being able to get the plane into the air and down on the ground again.
the first web site listed will allow you to download the pilot controller glossary for free.
pcg.pdf
google the above and you will have something to read. words in bold face are used on the radio.
there is much more to being a good pilot than just being able to get the plane into the air and down on the ground again.
At least some attempt at Standard English would be nice. I can live with "Position and hold" but using "blacktop" and "on the deck" in our line of work..no thanks.
BTW, not aviation but as an example of the common language myth how about: "I stopped to bum a fag and then drove off in my lorry (which goes like a bomb) but made sure I didn't drive on the pavement".......perfectly clear to some here I'm sure but to other 'English" speakers, perhaps not
BTW, not aviation but as an example of the common language myth how about: "I stopped to bum a fag and then drove off in my lorry (which goes like a bomb) but made sure I didn't drive on the pavement".......perfectly clear to some here I'm sure but to other 'English" speakers, perhaps not
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sqwkvfr,
Do you think everyone know's what....
means or
or
??
Perhaps we should recommend the London controllers to start using their local slang, When you've finished learning that don't forget the other local slang from Brum, Gordie-land, Scotland, the Welsh language, ETC ETC. and that's just the U.K. - next would be Europe and that wouldn't even be in English.
Did I know what
was before I read it on here ? Like hell I did. For all I knew he could have been talking about the colour of someone's tee-shirt.
Do you think everyone know's what....
Apple and Pears
Cream Crackered
Dog and Bone
Perhaps we should recommend the London controllers to start using their local slang, When you've finished learning that don't forget the other local slang from Brum, Gordie-land, Scotland, the Welsh language, ETC ETC. and that's just the U.K. - next would be Europe and that wouldn't even be in English.
Did I know what
Black top
Enough! Enough!
Some guy approaches a field and sees another plane on the runway so he goes around. So what? Happens all the time. Was he low on fuel? He didn't say so. No big deal!!!!
Someone please terminate this thread.
Someone please terminate this thread.
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Blacktop
This thread has opened up my eyes about how badly things are going out there in flying land.
I hope that the next time one of our forum members is given such instructions, just say: unfamiliar, say distance from airport for turning point.
I grew up flying at KPAO. Words like "SLAC" "midspan" and red roofs were all reporting points on the VFR terminal area chart*. As an instructor I taught my students that this was fine for our little home airport. But in the real world, one must quickly be able to say your position, VFR, in terms of the compass and distance. EG: Seven miles south of the airport.
Not by way of an excuse, but ever since the controllers went on strike (over 25 years ago) and were fired (employment terminated) the FAA has never really caught up.
I would like to know about "sucking eggs", and while I thougth bumbing a fag was begging for a cigarette and a lorry was a truck, I don't know what going off the pavement means.
There is a great old song that includes the lyrics, "while you've a lucifier to light your fag", in this, the word lucifier means a common match (ignition source)
*by the way: SLAC means stanford linear accelerator, RED ROOFS was the university itself (distinctive spanish style roofs) and Midspan was the middle of a significant nearby transbay bridge (dumbarton)
I hope that the next time one of our forum members is given such instructions, just say: unfamiliar, say distance from airport for turning point.
I grew up flying at KPAO. Words like "SLAC" "midspan" and red roofs were all reporting points on the VFR terminal area chart*. As an instructor I taught my students that this was fine for our little home airport. But in the real world, one must quickly be able to say your position, VFR, in terms of the compass and distance. EG: Seven miles south of the airport.
Not by way of an excuse, but ever since the controllers went on strike (over 25 years ago) and were fired (employment terminated) the FAA has never really caught up.
I would like to know about "sucking eggs", and while I thougth bumbing a fag was begging for a cigarette and a lorry was a truck, I don't know what going off the pavement means.
There is a great old song that includes the lyrics, "while you've a lucifier to light your fag", in this, the word lucifier means a common match (ignition source)
*by the way: SLAC means stanford linear accelerator, RED ROOFS was the university itself (distinctive spanish style roofs) and Midspan was the middle of a significant nearby transbay bridge (dumbarton)
