Discretion or routine extension to FTL's??
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I know pilots rarely consider looking at a dictionary when they are arguing a point, most of the time using rationalization to back up a preconceived position. But , if you look up the definition of the word "discretion" in a dictionary, it pretty much ends the discussion. "individual choice or judgement", that's what the dictionary says. Make your own best decision, and let your fellow pilot make his!
[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: blueball ]
[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: blueball ]
Agreed. Captain's discretion IS Captains discretion, not Ops Controller's, Chief Pilot's or Senior Bean Counter's. Each case is individual and if Capt Bloggs says no, it is nobody's decision but his/hers and their crew's.
Doc C.
Doc C.
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Hear, hear. And you do NOT despatch people on the first (legal) sector of a multi-sector duty saying "If you want to get home, or even complete the rostered duty you'll have to do it within discretion".
Sorry, HSL, but that is ILLEGAL.
Sorry, HSL, but that is ILLEGAL.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Hugmonster,
I really don’t think that you are right that the first sector of a multi-sector day cannot depart if the final sector will go into discretion.
HSL and others.
It is quite reasonable and legal for a flight to depart will the possibility of using the first two hours discretion (see CAP 371 18.2) however commanders discretion is exactly that and only exercised when it is required i.e. normally before the last sector.
During the day when a pilot has slept all night it is not unreasonable for him to use discretion. However, if prior to a night flight where changes in sleep pattern has made decent sleep difficult to achieve, it would be quite reasonable and proper not to use discretion at all.
Likewise it is the responsibility of the airline to produce a reasonable and workable programme. If flights out of the UK are scheduled to operate with a normal turnaround time and no allowance for ATC delays or slippage during the day it would be quite unreasonable to schedule a flight to depart out of the northern UK immediately prior to the 2200 local duty period cut-off and expect crews to operate the delayed flight to the Canaries and back at night. It therefore follows that the history of that rotation would indicate whether a schedule is a reasonable or not.
If the late evening Canaries repeatedly become a night one, the rotation is not realistic and the company should change it (if necessary with pressure from the CAA).
As far as the use of discretion is concerned surely if a F/O is not fit to extend his duty he needs to tell the commander of the aircraft. If the commander then exceeds the maximum allowable he surely cannot sign the declaration that the crew were fit for the extended duty; and if he did, the F/O is quite entitled to report the commander for so doing.
Finally if a pilot is likely to have to extend duty to carry out a flight he would be both reasonable and helpful if he told the crewing department that it is unlikely that he would be fit to extend duty, and for the crewing officer to either change his programme or arrange hotel accommodation at the last airport. It also allows him to arrange hotel accommodation for the passengers.
Unreasonable and unrealistic schedules will not be changed if pilots operate them using discretion when they are unfit to do so. It is also clearly illegal and dangerous;
See http://www.aaib.dtlr.gov.uk/bulletin/jan99/gbbaf.htm
in particular the discussion of crew duty period.
I really don’t think that you are right that the first sector of a multi-sector day cannot depart if the final sector will go into discretion.
HSL and others.
It is quite reasonable and legal for a flight to depart will the possibility of using the first two hours discretion (see CAP 371 18.2) however commanders discretion is exactly that and only exercised when it is required i.e. normally before the last sector.
During the day when a pilot has slept all night it is not unreasonable for him to use discretion. However, if prior to a night flight where changes in sleep pattern has made decent sleep difficult to achieve, it would be quite reasonable and proper not to use discretion at all.
Likewise it is the responsibility of the airline to produce a reasonable and workable programme. If flights out of the UK are scheduled to operate with a normal turnaround time and no allowance for ATC delays or slippage during the day it would be quite unreasonable to schedule a flight to depart out of the northern UK immediately prior to the 2200 local duty period cut-off and expect crews to operate the delayed flight to the Canaries and back at night. It therefore follows that the history of that rotation would indicate whether a schedule is a reasonable or not.
If the late evening Canaries repeatedly become a night one, the rotation is not realistic and the company should change it (if necessary with pressure from the CAA).
As far as the use of discretion is concerned surely if a F/O is not fit to extend his duty he needs to tell the commander of the aircraft. If the commander then exceeds the maximum allowable he surely cannot sign the declaration that the crew were fit for the extended duty; and if he did, the F/O is quite entitled to report the commander for so doing.
Finally if a pilot is likely to have to extend duty to carry out a flight he would be both reasonable and helpful if he told the crewing department that it is unlikely that he would be fit to extend duty, and for the crewing officer to either change his programme or arrange hotel accommodation at the last airport. It also allows him to arrange hotel accommodation for the passengers.
Unreasonable and unrealistic schedules will not be changed if pilots operate them using discretion when they are unfit to do so. It is also clearly illegal and dangerous;
See http://www.aaib.dtlr.gov.uk/bulletin/jan99/gbbaf.htm
in particular the discussion of crew duty period.
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sky, assume that:-
- a crew is rostered to fly a two-sector day
- it is not reasonably possible for both sectors to be completed within normal FTL limits
- a slip crew is not already positioned downroute
- the aircraft is normally-crewed, with no positioning crew for the return
- HotAc has not been pre-booked
sky9,
That would be PLANNING to fly into discretion and that is most definately NOT allowed, unless of course you PLAN to change the crew before the last sector.
Ask the CAA!
Doc C.
[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: Doctor Cruces ]
That would be PLANNING to fly into discretion and that is most definately NOT allowed, unless of course you PLAN to change the crew before the last sector.
Ask the CAA!
Doc C.
[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: Doctor Cruces ]
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From what I have read on this thread it seems that some companies have got this Discretion thing wrong, big time!
Under the licence that I am flying on:
1} No Capt can dispatch from Base if he knows that the flight will require discretion to complete. So we can't leave A to go to B if we know that B to A will need discretion.
2} Discretion can only be used if in the Capts opinion the company has made every effort to avoid its use. This means that it really is an unavoidable delay down route.
3} It is the Captains discretion to extend a duty and no one elses! I for many reasons I have elected not to use discretion many times and never been invited for tea and bickies!! Our licencing authority would love to hear from a Capt who had been questioned as to why he refused to go into discretion!
4} ANY use of discretion must be reported to the licencing authority.
These rules are respected by the company and they will either put on a heavy crew or position crew to avoid problems.
Under the licence that I am flying on:
1} No Capt can dispatch from Base if he knows that the flight will require discretion to complete. So we can't leave A to go to B if we know that B to A will need discretion.
2} Discretion can only be used if in the Capts opinion the company has made every effort to avoid its use. This means that it really is an unavoidable delay down route.
3} It is the Captains discretion to extend a duty and no one elses! I for many reasons I have elected not to use discretion many times and never been invited for tea and bickies!! Our licencing authority would love to hear from a Capt who had been questioned as to why he refused to go into discretion!
4} ANY use of discretion must be reported to the licencing authority.
These rules are respected by the company and they will either put on a heavy crew or position crew to avoid problems.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Hugmonster
If it is not reasonably possible for the flight to be flown within the rostered period and a reasonable period exceeds the maximum the schedule is illegal and does not comply with 371 (section 2.2 "Planned schedules must allow for the flight to be completed within the flying duty period"). In that case you should draw the attention of your Union CC to the schedule and also the CAA; either through Chirp or directly. You should also decline to do the flight, but get your facts right first.
Doctor Crucs
The planning of the flight is when the schedule and roster are written . What happens on the day is not planning unless a roster is changed or someone is called out from standby. See CAP371 section 18.2 "In a flying Duty Period involving 2 or more sectors up to a maximum of 2 hrs discretion may be exercised prior to the first and subsequent sectors".
However assume that you are on a night PMI departing after 2200Z. If crewing want you to change and do a night TFS which is outside the maximum duty period allowed, you cannot dispatch to TFS using discretion as Crewing are PLANNING your roster for the flight.
Hogwash.
I don’t know what scheduling rules you are working to as I don’t know the joke about Fantasy Island. One of the problems with a world wide bulletin board is that rules are different in different parts of the world.
Your comments about the use of discretion being that of the commanders I agree with exactly.
It is my view that a Management Pilot that had "Tea and Bickies" with a pilot would find himself in a very hot seat with the CAA. As I said before; if your called in, take a recorder with you - it’s up to you whether you tell him that you have one.
Whatever you do however do it properly; tell crewing that you cannot operate the flight because you are likely to be fatigued if they argue with them send them a fax or email asking them if they wish you to fly while fatigued. I doubt if they will pursue the point.
In the UK discretion is filed in the company records up to 2 hours (and are available to the CAA) and directly with the CAA if in excess up to the 3 hr max..
If it is not reasonably possible for the flight to be flown within the rostered period and a reasonable period exceeds the maximum the schedule is illegal and does not comply with 371 (section 2.2 "Planned schedules must allow for the flight to be completed within the flying duty period"). In that case you should draw the attention of your Union CC to the schedule and also the CAA; either through Chirp or directly. You should also decline to do the flight, but get your facts right first.
Doctor Crucs
The planning of the flight is when the schedule and roster are written . What happens on the day is not planning unless a roster is changed or someone is called out from standby. See CAP371 section 18.2 "In a flying Duty Period involving 2 or more sectors up to a maximum of 2 hrs discretion may be exercised prior to the first and subsequent sectors".
However assume that you are on a night PMI departing after 2200Z. If crewing want you to change and do a night TFS which is outside the maximum duty period allowed, you cannot dispatch to TFS using discretion as Crewing are PLANNING your roster for the flight.
Hogwash.
I don’t know what scheduling rules you are working to as I don’t know the joke about Fantasy Island. One of the problems with a world wide bulletin board is that rules are different in different parts of the world.
Your comments about the use of discretion being that of the commanders I agree with exactly.
It is my view that a Management Pilot that had "Tea and Bickies" with a pilot would find himself in a very hot seat with the CAA. As I said before; if your called in, take a recorder with you - it’s up to you whether you tell him that you have one.
Whatever you do however do it properly; tell crewing that you cannot operate the flight because you are likely to be fatigued if they argue with them send them a fax or email asking them if they wish you to fly while fatigued. I doubt if they will pursue the point.
In the UK discretion is filed in the company records up to 2 hours (and are available to the CAA) and directly with the CAA if in excess up to the 3 hr max..
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Sky 9. Out of interest the EU FTL (now almost agreed by Airlines and Unions) will allow a FDP reporting at 2200 to go round trip UK-TFS. Thats called a level playing field with European Airlines who can do that(safely) every night.
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