Rynair tail strike at STN
Join Date: Apr 2002
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I have several times been handed loadsheets with, as in this case ZFM = DOM or fuel entered twice so ZFM = TOM etc etc. I get at least a coupla works of fiction every month.
Two points spring to mind
1- The training given to new dispatchers, certainly at some out-stations, is quasi non-existent. They circle boxes on the back of the loadsheet and fill in numbers, but in many cases don't have the faintest idea what they are filling in ( and sorry to the good uns but that is a fact). A large part of them can't even do basic mental arithmetic (no I am not joking)
2- Allied to this many of my fellow crew do what, and only what , RYR suggest they do to crosscheck the loadsheet,involving using underload to compare TOM vs RTOM.
I don't see so many of them looking at the back to read "roughly" the weight they expect to see on the front, but hey it isn't rocket science anyway. . .Boeing 42t 180 pax and bags say 18t , 8t of gas, if it's much different to 68 tons you should be asking why.
Unfortunately RYR are breeding a generation of pilot's/dispatchers/engineers? who can do the job by numbers SO well but don't have a clue what they are actually doing.
Great philosophy, nobody questions anything , and there is always an SOP handy to blame somebody when something goes wrong.
Job description - ask no questions/accept all blame by signing about 50 times a day that you have read checked and accepted everything, even if crewdock may be "temporarily" unable to display it.
Two points spring to mind
1- The training given to new dispatchers, certainly at some out-stations, is quasi non-existent. They circle boxes on the back of the loadsheet and fill in numbers, but in many cases don't have the faintest idea what they are filling in ( and sorry to the good uns but that is a fact). A large part of them can't even do basic mental arithmetic (no I am not joking)
2- Allied to this many of my fellow crew do what, and only what , RYR suggest they do to crosscheck the loadsheet,involving using underload to compare TOM vs RTOM.
I don't see so many of them looking at the back to read "roughly" the weight they expect to see on the front, but hey it isn't rocket science anyway. . .Boeing 42t 180 pax and bags say 18t , 8t of gas, if it's much different to 68 tons you should be asking why.
Unfortunately RYR are breeding a generation of pilot's/dispatchers/engineers? who can do the job by numbers SO well but don't have a clue what they are actually doing.
Great philosophy, nobody questions anything , and there is always an SOP handy to blame somebody when something goes wrong.
Job description - ask no questions/accept all blame by signing about 50 times a day that you have read checked and accepted everything, even if crewdock may be "temporarily" unable to display it.
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slight misunderstanding on some posts?
I don't think they are suggesting that it took off 10tons over max take off weight, rather the v speeds were set for 10 tons less than actual take off weight?
I don't think they are suggesting that it took off 10tons over max take off weight, rather the v speeds were set for 10 tons less than actual take off weight?
Join Date: Mar 2007
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I think wee-one highlights the rush culture correctly - the rush to turnaround, or the rush to start the day with an early getaway, or the rush to get home. Is it no wonder then that commentators rush to criticise?
"Lead, follow, or get out of the way"
"Act in haste, repent at leisure."
The old one's are the best, but the trick is always to apply the correct weight and balance to each that may apply - push it too far and it may come back and bite
A new trend is to encourage the sheep into the pens by threat of losing the slot. On my last trip down the back we were treated to five minute countdown. We were hustled into our seats with the threat of a 30 minute delay due apparently to the danger of missing our slot "unless we take off in 4 minutes". I found it slightl odd that we were actually airborne before our scheduled departure time. Maybe the latest tactics are to book the slots 30 minutes earlier than previously now on some routes?
To the poster that said twenty-five minute turnarounds were "easy", I would suggest that no contingency time actually equals "rush".
Back to my last experience - to emphasise where we were not to sit, not only were tray tables down and belts draped, but seat cushions were up-ended like the drains might be up
. That worked. Not a single bleat of "can we sit here?" was heard 
Having sat back, noted the usual frost over the fuel tanks on the wings, relaxed, and started to enjoy our flight, but then we were told that sorry but there were no sandwiches.
At the other end after a 'standard' flight time for the route, we touched down a good 15 minutes before our scheduled arrival time. Rather disappointingly we were given no trumpeted fanfare about yet another on time arrival, and as we taxied in at 40 knots we had a announcement about the type of sandwiches we could buy instead. Then we hesitated before entering the stand because no ground crew had arrived, causing a good thirty out of control passengers at the back to be up, bins open, bags out of the bins before we were even over the line!
No one said a word about that, and finally the inevitable "disembark from the front stairs only" was uttered. I suspect the cabin crew were done in by the end of their rushed day.
Then at passport control there was a big queue of course because of the number of British passport holders entering Britain. Luckily I chose a queue with a high proportion of foreign passport and plastic card holders which of course the Brit computers cannot attempt to link to 700 sundry other big brother computers, so foreigners hardly need to break stride. They certainly don't have to stand like a lemon for 10 seconds while 700 computers all check your inside leg like we Brits do. Mental note: Must get one of those foreign plastic thingies.
So anyway, my Kevlar underpants remained unscraped, I didn't die of lack of sandwiches or from a blow of any prematurely released bag hitting me on the head. I didn't have to listen to trumpet fanfares or warnings to remain in my seat until the captain switched off the seatbelt sign, immigration reminded me that Brits don't actually need to rush, and I got home on time.
Good job or what?
"Lead, follow, or get out of the way"
"Act in haste, repent at leisure."
The old one's are the best, but the trick is always to apply the correct weight and balance to each that may apply - push it too far and it may come back and bite
A new trend is to encourage the sheep into the pens by threat of losing the slot. On my last trip down the back we were treated to five minute countdown. We were hustled into our seats with the threat of a 30 minute delay due apparently to the danger of missing our slot "unless we take off in 4 minutes". I found it slightl odd that we were actually airborne before our scheduled departure time. Maybe the latest tactics are to book the slots 30 minutes earlier than previously now on some routes?
To the poster that said twenty-five minute turnarounds were "easy", I would suggest that no contingency time actually equals "rush".
Back to my last experience - to emphasise where we were not to sit, not only were tray tables down and belts draped, but seat cushions were up-ended like the drains might be up
. That worked. Not a single bleat of "can we sit here?" was heard Having sat back, noted the usual frost over the fuel tanks on the wings, relaxed, and started to enjoy our flight, but then we were told that sorry but there were no sandwiches.
At the other end after a 'standard' flight time for the route, we touched down a good 15 minutes before our scheduled arrival time. Rather disappointingly we were given no trumpeted fanfare about yet another on time arrival, and as we taxied in at 40 knots we had a announcement about the type of sandwiches we could buy instead. Then we hesitated before entering the stand because no ground crew had arrived, causing a good thirty out of control passengers at the back to be up, bins open, bags out of the bins before we were even over the line!
No one said a word about that, and finally the inevitable "disembark from the front stairs only" was uttered. I suspect the cabin crew were done in by the end of their rushed day.
Then at passport control there was a big queue of course because of the number of British passport holders entering Britain. Luckily I chose a queue with a high proportion of foreign passport and plastic card holders which of course the Brit computers cannot attempt to link to 700 sundry other big brother computers, so foreigners hardly need to break stride. They certainly don't have to stand like a lemon for 10 seconds while 700 computers all check your inside leg like we Brits do. Mental note: Must get one of those foreign plastic thingies.
So anyway, my Kevlar underpants remained unscraped, I didn't die of lack of sandwiches or from a blow of any prematurely released bag hitting me on the head. I didn't have to listen to trumpet fanfares or warnings to remain in my seat until the captain switched off the seatbelt sign, immigration reminded me that Brits don't actually need to rush, and I got home on time.
Good job or what?
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Apparently the error was 10.000kg too much entered in the ZFW on the FMC. This resulted in the speeds being calculated for a weight, still well below the RTOW, of 10 tons higher than needed. The end result is that the aircraft would be travelling faster on the runway than that required for a normal lift-off. At rotation, the excess speed would be converted to over-rotation and hence a tail strike.
A single digit can make a huge difference.
Mistakes occur, accidents happen.
A single digit can make a huge difference.
Mistakes occur, accidents happen.
Just a numbered other
Is it just me getting confused here?
I thought the DOW had been mistakenly entered in the ZFW box.
That would lead to the Vspeeds being calculated for 10 tonnes under actual TOW.
Therefore many knots slow, needing more nose up for the required lift and hence the tail strike.
Rubik, your scenario would closely replicate an improved climb profile. More speed, less attitude, no tail scrape
I thought the DOW had been mistakenly entered in the ZFW box.
That would lead to the Vspeeds being calculated for 10 tonnes under actual TOW.
Therefore many knots slow, needing more nose up for the required lift and hence the tail strike.
Rubik, your scenario would closely replicate an improved climb profile. More speed, less attitude, no tail scrape
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I would have to Concur with Arkroyal. Overweight speeds would give greater V speeds than required. This would result in greater Kinetic energy at rotation which would result in greater Potential energy being available at a given angle of attack which would in effect be protective against tail strike.
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I think the point being, with the aircraft at a higher weight according to the box and load sheet.
You have higher v speeds, higher trim setting.
Therefore when you rotate the aircraft does not lift as expected, it will rotate unusually easilly, if not expected then the rotation could easilly become 5 to 6 degs per second and result in a tail strike.
It would only improve the climb profile if you indeed recognised the problem quick enough and countered it until clearing the ground and tail strike danger zone.
You have higher v speeds, higher trim setting.
Therefore when you rotate the aircraft does not lift as expected, it will rotate unusually easilly, if not expected then the rotation could easilly become 5 to 6 degs per second and result in a tail strike.
It would only improve the climb profile if you indeed recognised the problem quick enough and countered it until clearing the ground and tail strike danger zone.
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I started this thread a few days ago and it's interesting to read the debate that has ensued. My reason for bringing this issue into the 'public' forum was not to have a go at Ryanair, Dispatchers or anyone else involved with this flight.
The human element of preparing an aircraft for flight is always open to mistakes, oversights etc, and there should always be some type of crosscheck applied to performance and loading data. My concern was to know if it was being kept quiet by management and not reported to the relevant authorities.
It is this culture by management, and the punishing of people who make mistakes that worries me most. Ryanair, in common with other operators have had a few close scrapes lately. Will the next aircraft to have an unplanned meeting with the ground be as lucky to have soft wet grass inside the airfield boundry with emergency services moments away or are we all really holding our breaths for a major aircraft disaster.
In a professional enviornment such as this safety is everybodys responsibility, including management, and if a company gets embarrased by an 'incident' it can only help to enhance safety by incorporating these lessons into its training programme.
Thanks for your feedback,
the addict.
The human element of preparing an aircraft for flight is always open to mistakes, oversights etc, and there should always be some type of crosscheck applied to performance and loading data. My concern was to know if it was being kept quiet by management and not reported to the relevant authorities.
It is this culture by management, and the punishing of people who make mistakes that worries me most. Ryanair, in common with other operators have had a few close scrapes lately. Will the next aircraft to have an unplanned meeting with the ground be as lucky to have soft wet grass inside the airfield boundry with emergency services moments away or are we all really holding our breaths for a major aircraft disaster.
In a professional enviornment such as this safety is everybodys responsibility, including management, and if a company gets embarrased by an 'incident' it can only help to enhance safety by incorporating these lessons into its training programme.
Thanks for your feedback,
the addict.
Last edited by tvaddict; 26th Feb 2008 at 13:44. Reason: typo
Considering all that's been written about this incident, I'm surprised there's been no mention to date about what sounded like a RYR tailstrike at Dublin last December. Was there that morning and from what we heard over the RT, it sounded like a tailstrike occurred on take off and the aircraft returned for a normal landing. That's all I know.
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-8AS, have a look at the following especially finding number 10. It took almost two weeks for Ryanair to inform the authorities of a serious incident.
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/8545-0.pdf
Do you think every SAIR or Captains Discretion Report goes to the IAA?
'Keep them in the dark and feed them ****'
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/8545-0.pdf
Do you think every SAIR or Captains Discretion Report goes to the IAA?
'Keep them in the dark and feed them ****'
