Rynair tail strike at STN
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warrior28
at standard weights for pax 10 tons overload would equate to approx 100 pax !! as you say BS ...
with full house , full fuel and nil cargo impossible to be overweight ....
with full house , full fuel and nil cargo impossible to be overweight ....
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The rumour is indeed true- captain & dispatcher both suspended.
From what I know, the dispatcher inserted the dow instead of the zfw on the loadsheet. This accounted for the 10t error & the subsequent insertion of incorrect speeds, which as we know resulted in a tail strike. Truly astonishing that this error was not detected during cross checks by either the Captain & FO!
From what I know, the dispatcher inserted the dow instead of the zfw on the loadsheet. This accounted for the 10t error & the subsequent insertion of incorrect speeds, which as we know resulted in a tail strike. Truly astonishing that this error was not detected during cross checks by either the Captain & FO!
Last edited by Gator32; 24th Feb 2008 at 20:07.
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with full house , full fuel and nil cargo impossible to be overweight ....
Assuming DOW 41,000, a payload of 18,000 and max fuel of 22,000 then one could exceed mtow! Assuming FR tanker fuel, etc.
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The 10.000kg error would, in simple terms, make a difference to the take off speeds and the trim. Whatever the error and whether the Captain chose to ignore the TEN TON error, which I find hard to believe, the attempt to rotate 15 knots early with the incorrect trim would almost inevitably result in a tail strike/scrape.
Blip, at Stansted, there is very rarely a situation where the -800 will be limited even at Max TOW.
I can concur that RYR training and SOPs are as good as, if not better, than the industry standard, including Big Airways. In fact, BA have some rather strange procedures when you compare them to the 'industry standard'.
To Beagle, visual and others of your pathetic ilk, all I can say is that I am surprised it took you so long to get into print here. Having a slag at RYR as unsafe, badly trained, slapdash and unprofessional merely reflects on your prejudice and ignorance or simply your refusal to believe that even RYR is capable of doing anything correctly. You denigrate a large body of professional pilots who have to endure your inane and childish rantings on a regular and foreseeable basis. We all go through the same regular checks in the sim and on line that our fellow pilots have to. Don't assume that everyone passes 'on the nod' as this is not the case. Ability and standards are thoroughly examined in minute detail, just as they are in other airlines.
Don't you dare to presume that you are superior to these pilots just because you work for some airline that is registered in the UK, outside Eire or happens to be a so-called 'Flag Carrier'.
I would love to get you to EMA and put you through the LPC/OPC and see just how easily you would breeze through the 'meticulous low standard' check. You are rude and ignorant and serve no useful purpose on this or any other thread that refers to RYR. If you don't work for RYR, then kindly shut up.
You lot must be happy now, proving that ignorance is bliss!
Blip, at Stansted, there is very rarely a situation where the -800 will be limited even at Max TOW.
I can concur that RYR training and SOPs are as good as, if not better, than the industry standard, including Big Airways. In fact, BA have some rather strange procedures when you compare them to the 'industry standard'.
To Beagle, visual and others of your pathetic ilk, all I can say is that I am surprised it took you so long to get into print here. Having a slag at RYR as unsafe, badly trained, slapdash and unprofessional merely reflects on your prejudice and ignorance or simply your refusal to believe that even RYR is capable of doing anything correctly. You denigrate a large body of professional pilots who have to endure your inane and childish rantings on a regular and foreseeable basis. We all go through the same regular checks in the sim and on line that our fellow pilots have to. Don't assume that everyone passes 'on the nod' as this is not the case. Ability and standards are thoroughly examined in minute detail, just as they are in other airlines.
Don't you dare to presume that you are superior to these pilots just because you work for some airline that is registered in the UK, outside Eire or happens to be a so-called 'Flag Carrier'.
I would love to get you to EMA and put you through the LPC/OPC and see just how easily you would breeze through the 'meticulous low standard' check. You are rude and ignorant and serve no useful purpose on this or any other thread that refers to RYR. If you don't work for RYR, then kindly shut up.
You lot must be happy now, proving that ignorance is bliss!
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The assumption I think we all made on reading that the a/c departed 10T "overweight" was that it was either 10T over MTOW or that the weight was calculated correctly and somehow an extra hundred pax (or equivalent) somehow got squeezed on. This is clearly not the case.
As Gator explained the DOW was incorrectly inserted on the loadsheet instead of the ZFW, so the calc was done as if the a/c was empty, yet they had c. 100 pax on board. ie pax and bags were lnot included. Pretty serious gaffe, that!
I can just picture an excessively harassed "press-on" Captain waving off a changed loadsheet saying, we're at normal weight, everything's OK, sod the paperwork, and launching with a radically incorrect C of G for the trim set, and utterly unrealistic V speeds.
The rest was hardly surprising.
It doesn't immediately sound like a systemic problem in the company - I cannot imagine any but a tiny percentage of the crew doing this, and in a company of that size there will always be a "random" or two.. But why the hell did the despatcher allow the aircraft off the stand, and why did the FO not do his job and say, "No!"? Could be a result compliance in a dictatorial system, but that is hardly an assumption that can be made from the facts at hand.
CAA, over to you...This happened on UK soil!
As Gator explained the DOW was incorrectly inserted on the loadsheet instead of the ZFW, so the calc was done as if the a/c was empty, yet they had c. 100 pax on board. ie pax and bags were lnot included. Pretty serious gaffe, that!
I can just picture an excessively harassed "press-on" Captain waving off a changed loadsheet saying, we're at normal weight, everything's OK, sod the paperwork, and launching with a radically incorrect C of G for the trim set, and utterly unrealistic V speeds.
The rest was hardly surprising.
It doesn't immediately sound like a systemic problem in the company - I cannot imagine any but a tiny percentage of the crew doing this, and in a company of that size there will always be a "random" or two.. But why the hell did the despatcher allow the aircraft off the stand, and why did the FO not do his job and say, "No!"? Could be a result compliance in a dictatorial system, but that is hardly an assumption that can be made from the facts at hand.
CAA, over to you...This happened on UK soil!
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757, pray tell how defending the reputation of those in my chosen profession, airline pilot, can in any way be seen as sycophantic to MO'L, a manager of an airline? I fail to see how you tie the two together. I have no connection, management or otherwise, not even training, to RYR and certainly hold MO'L in no greater or lesser regard than the BA pilots have for their Irish boss.
So off you go again, running down pilots just because they happen to work for RYR.
Again, please explain how defending pilots equates with sycophancy? Which superior airline do you work for?
Are you a good pilot? By whose estimation? Where do you rate yourself on a scale of one to ten? Where do you place the pilots of RYR on this scale?
The short answer will do.
So off you go again, running down pilots just because they happen to work for RYR.
Again, please explain how defending pilots equates with sycophancy? Which superior airline do you work for?
Are you a good pilot? By whose estimation? Where do you rate yourself on a scale of one to ten? Where do you place the pilots of RYR on this scale?
The short answer will do.
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i see my post has been removed anyway, ho hum.
I'm not running down RYR pilots - a goodly number of my freinds work there and I know the SOP's are very good.
All i'm saying is that various 'pressures' on the crew wether real or imagined can lead to situations such as this, or it could just be a cock up, we all make them. If you bothered to actually read my post (before it was deleted) you would see I wasn't suggesting at all that the crew were in anyway 'sub-standard'. I guess you just took one look at a negative post about FR and pressed the rant button though.
However I still think that ryanair reap what they sew. MOL and co seem to go out of their way to antagonise people both within and outside the industry - that all has to come home to roost one day, so its no surprise that people queue up to run ryanair down wenever they have an incident - after all ryanair's management spend all the rest of the time running everyone else down.
Lets also not forget that FR are running into financial dificulties with at least one major bank downgrading them warning of "potential business model failure" - and there won't me many freinds around if they need help in the near future.
pointlessly antagonising your competitors, and workforce, is never and will never be a sound long term business strategy.
I'm not running down RYR pilots - a goodly number of my freinds work there and I know the SOP's are very good.
All i'm saying is that various 'pressures' on the crew wether real or imagined can lead to situations such as this, or it could just be a cock up, we all make them. If you bothered to actually read my post (before it was deleted) you would see I wasn't suggesting at all that the crew were in anyway 'sub-standard'. I guess you just took one look at a negative post about FR and pressed the rant button though.
However I still think that ryanair reap what they sew. MOL and co seem to go out of their way to antagonise people both within and outside the industry - that all has to come home to roost one day, so its no surprise that people queue up to run ryanair down wenever they have an incident - after all ryanair's management spend all the rest of the time running everyone else down.
Lets also not forget that FR are running into financial dificulties with at least one major bank downgrading them warning of "potential business model failure" - and there won't me many freinds around if they need help in the near future.
pointlessly antagonising your competitors, and workforce, is never and will never be a sound long term business strategy.
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Another example of the culture (on the line at least) of rush.
Down in the canaries the other day ryr messed up at least three pushes by obtaining a clearance to push with the fwd hold open. They were challenged by another a/c. The f/o was a mumbling mess.When they finally pushed they failed to push correctly stopping two other a/c from pushing. Reason :too rushed to relay the change of push to the driver. Reason for change of push..to allow the now inconvenienced READY a/c to push. A perfectly calm afternoon turned into a chaotic 15 mins because of the rush philosophy of this airline. Not bashing just rush. How can you push before a door is closed, arent they on the before checklist. Oh so is gross error checks of loadsheets
The gain from all this skygod bolox..nada. They were still waiting for take off as we approached the hold.
The f/o was utterly flustered in his comms with atc. Not really in the loop with regard to crosschecking departure details like loadsheets I would think.
So rubik put that in your opc. Or does ryr still subscribe to loading up the opcwith failure after failure to the point of silly in the belief that it makes better line pilots? High load or well flown lpc/opc dont make good line captains...
Down in the canaries the other day ryr messed up at least three pushes by obtaining a clearance to push with the fwd hold open. They were challenged by another a/c. The f/o was a mumbling mess.When they finally pushed they failed to push correctly stopping two other a/c from pushing. Reason :too rushed to relay the change of push to the driver. Reason for change of push..to allow the now inconvenienced READY a/c to push. A perfectly calm afternoon turned into a chaotic 15 mins because of the rush philosophy of this airline. Not bashing just rush. How can you push before a door is closed, arent they on the before checklist. Oh so is gross error checks of loadsheets
The gain from all this skygod bolox..nada. They were still waiting for take off as we approached the hold.
The f/o was utterly flustered in his comms with atc. Not really in the loop with regard to crosschecking departure details like loadsheets I would think.
So rubik put that in your opc. Or does ryr still subscribe to loading up the opcwith failure after failure to the point of silly in the belief that it makes better line pilots? High load or well flown lpc/opc dont make good line captains...
short flights long nights
How do you load an OPC with failures..or why would you want to do that?
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Not wishing to stray to far from the point, but........ Ryanair SOP's are the best in the industry HAH! The Ryr SOP's are only there to allow the management to quote 'Flight crew did not follow co Sop's etc etc NOT THEREFORE OUR FAULT' yes the SOP's are extensive adding to an already onerous load on the flight deck , but SOP's are meant to be about reducing workload not increasing it.
Take off briefings that sound like a recording are pointless. The famous Double Brief! Silent cockpit is a thing of the past! 'Take off power set indications normal' I only want to know when there not thank you very much.
WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE REASONS THE MISTAKE WAS MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE. ...................... NOT BLAME FLIGHT DECK DESPATCHER AND ANY ONE ELSE WHO IS IN THE VICINITY
The culture of blame at RYR is enshrined in the company
TO ANALYZE THE REASONS BEHIND THE MISTAKE IS THE ONLY WAY FORWARD WERE THE CREW ON THE LAST SECTOR OF LONG DAY WERE THEY RUNNING LATE WHICH MAY HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRESSURE TO CUT CORNERS WAS LANGUAGE A FACTOR ETC ETC
I could go on but the RYR management is a cancerous growth that need surgery, the paper work that is loaded on the crews far from necessary, all its there for is to provide avenues of blame in the event of an incident.
GROW UP PEOPLE UNLESS WE ARE VERY CAREFUL ALL OF THE INDUSTRY WILL GO THIS WAY
Take off briefings that sound like a recording are pointless. The famous Double Brief! Silent cockpit is a thing of the past! 'Take off power set indications normal' I only want to know when there not thank you very much.
WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE REASONS THE MISTAKE WAS MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE. ...................... NOT BLAME FLIGHT DECK DESPATCHER AND ANY ONE ELSE WHO IS IN THE VICINITY
The culture of blame at RYR is enshrined in the company
TO ANALYZE THE REASONS BEHIND THE MISTAKE IS THE ONLY WAY FORWARD WERE THE CREW ON THE LAST SECTOR OF LONG DAY WERE THEY RUNNING LATE WHICH MAY HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRESSURE TO CUT CORNERS WAS LANGUAGE A FACTOR ETC ETC
I could go on but the RYR management is a cancerous growth that need surgery, the paper work that is loaded on the crews far from necessary, all its there for is to provide avenues of blame in the event of an incident.
GROW UP PEOPLE UNLESS WE ARE VERY CAREFUL ALL OF THE INDUSTRY WILL GO THIS WAY
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Well I cant emember an opc or lpc that had two engines throughout, or all systems operable.
For failures read non normals. my point was that a good performance on an easy or hard opc/lpc is not indictative of a good captain or first officer when out and about.
So rubiks invite to sit the ryr opc/lpc would be a pointless indicator of attitudes on line.
For failures read non normals. my point was that a good performance on an easy or hard opc/lpc is not indictative of a good captain or first officer when out and about.
So rubiks invite to sit the ryr opc/lpc would be a pointless indicator of attitudes on line.
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If the 'facts' as reported here are valid, then what a pity lessons from the Singapore Airlines Auckland tailscrape (2003?) have not been learned and the people ultimately responsible (the pilots) did not have 'ball-park figures' to run a simple cross-check of weights and speeds.
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Errors are bound to occur.
However if the pre-flight paperwork was done correctly they would have known within abouta tonne what the a/c weight should be for that leg.
I know when I fly with any of our guys the first gross error check is whether the a/c weight is anywhere near what I at the planning stage expected it to be.
Oh an d I work for RYR, wait for the facts before you condemn the pilots. Everyone makes mistakes.
However if the pre-flight paperwork was done correctly they would have known within abouta tonne what the a/c weight should be for that leg.
I know when I fly with any of our guys the first gross error check is whether the a/c weight is anywhere near what I at the planning stage expected it to be.
Oh an d I work for RYR, wait for the facts before you condemn the pilots. Everyone makes mistakes.
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Hi guys,
I'm a flight dispatcher, and I would like to write a feeback about what happened a couple of days ago. I was really exhausted, and coming back to work after a family problem...
As I was on an FR flight, trying to deal with cargo... I made a mistake. I didn't filled in the bags, nor the number or the weight.
So were missing 1200kg in the load.
The captain, even if he had the lds well in advance, didn't see the mistake, and me neither.
Actually, to fill in cargo, you have to find the "equivalent bags weight" and fill a fictive number of bags, and write the actual cargo weight.
That means if you only take a quick look, you will see :
Adults
Children
BAGS
Wich is actually... normal ! The only thing that can make you detect the mistake is that your bags are in hold 3, instead of hold 2. But are cockpit crews in touch with loading procedures ? I'm not sure...
I'm feeling really bad after this incident.
I see so many crews just taking their figures, signing the lds, without checking it...
So more than ever, please, make a cross check next time.
For the tailstrike in STN, I found really weird the 10tons overweight... maybe they forgot to fill in the pax ?
I don't remember who was asking, but yes, FR is using different MTOW's
I'm a flight dispatcher, and I would like to write a feeback about what happened a couple of days ago. I was really exhausted, and coming back to work after a family problem...
As I was on an FR flight, trying to deal with cargo... I made a mistake. I didn't filled in the bags, nor the number or the weight.
So were missing 1200kg in the load.
The captain, even if he had the lds well in advance, didn't see the mistake, and me neither.
Actually, to fill in cargo, you have to find the "equivalent bags weight" and fill a fictive number of bags, and write the actual cargo weight.
That means if you only take a quick look, you will see :
Adults
Children
BAGS
Wich is actually... normal ! The only thing that can make you detect the mistake is that your bags are in hold 3, instead of hold 2. But are cockpit crews in touch with loading procedures ? I'm not sure...
I'm feeling really bad after this incident.
I see so many crews just taking their figures, signing the lds, without checking it...
So more than ever, please, make a cross check next time.
For the tailstrike in STN, I found really weird the 10tons overweight... maybe they forgot to fill in the pax ?
I don't remember who was asking, but yes, FR is using different MTOW's
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However if the pre-flight paperwork was done correctly they would have known within abouta tonne what the a/c weight should be for that leg.
I know when I fly with any of our guys the first gross error check is whether the a/c weight is anywhere near what I at the planning stage expected it to be.
I know when I fly with any of our guys the first gross error check is whether the a/c weight is anywhere near what I at the planning stage expected it to be.
Get the loadsheet (or do a manual one) and then check the ZFM and TOM agains the estimated on the plog. This does 2 things - a) it alerts to gross errors on the loadsheet, and b) if the load is really 10 tons different then the plog fuel calcs are all wrong, and you probably need a new plog.
obviously one should also do a thorough cross check of the load sheet as well, but checking it against the plog provides a 2nd line of defence.
I also have a ballpark figure in my head - I work on about 100kg per pax including baggage, and I know the DOM of my aircraft are about 60 tonnes, so If I've got 15 tonnes of fuel and 150 pax then I expect to see about 90 tonnes on the loadsheet - ain't gonna be more than a tonne or so out - so a good gross error check. The advantage of an old fashioned ASI is also that you can tell if the speed bugs 'look right' - not sure if you get that instant 'glance' feedback with a speedtape.
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FlyingDisp
A refreshing change to see open honesty and integrity.
We all make mistakes and hopefully an open reporting culture should ensure that we learn from these mistakes and put systems inplace to catch them before they cause any problems. Whenever I make a
of something I come up with a personal safeguard procedure to make sure I don't make that mistake again, something as simple as a peg attached the APU switch during a bleeds off set-up to remind me to not let the F.O. switch it off during the before taxi scan!
As long as the guys involved were not acting negligently, and with no deliberate skipping of procedures, then we should treat it as a lesson learned the hard way, luckily with no bad repercussions.
However, what does concern me is the amount of stories from guys within RYR about the pressure to rush from management, and the temptation to skip important parts of the job to avoid having to justify a late departure. I hope it's just small-talk, but maybe some RYR guys could give us an insight into the reality of what goes on?
A refreshing change to see open honesty and integrity.
We all make mistakes and hopefully an open reporting culture should ensure that we learn from these mistakes and put systems inplace to catch them before they cause any problems. Whenever I make a
of something I come up with a personal safeguard procedure to make sure I don't make that mistake again, something as simple as a peg attached the APU switch during a bleeds off set-up to remind me to not let the F.O. switch it off during the before taxi scan!As long as the guys involved were not acting negligently, and with no deliberate skipping of procedures, then we should treat it as a lesson learned the hard way, luckily with no bad repercussions.
However, what does concern me is the amount of stories from guys within RYR about the pressure to rush from management, and the temptation to skip important parts of the job to avoid having to justify a late departure. I hope it's just small-talk, but maybe some RYR guys could give us an insight into the reality of what goes on?
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I don't know the facts on this one but i find it all a bit strange. It would be almost impossible to be ten tons over the max gross Regulated Take off Weight.
Ryanair alter the RTOW as a paper excersise for dispatch, either 66990kg, 69990kg, or 74990kg are used. Without using the books, the aircraft is about 42250kg, 189 pax and bags is at most 17000kg. This still allows for 15000kg of fuel. Ryanair don't do long haul so i doubt if there would be anything like fifteen tons of fuel on board.
STN has a long runway so i doubt if there would be much restriction. So if there was a ten ton error, it would still be within the aircraft, and runway capability. If the aircraft is heavy, it is almost impossible to load it out of trim for pax.
The only thing that leaps out at me is if it were ten tons light, and badly trimmed you would have problems. But ten tons??
Yes, Ryanair do run a tight ship, if any of this is true, the crew are probably history by now.
Mr Good Cat.
We do 25 minute turn rounds, but that normaly isn't too difficult. If your'e late, you note the report with a delay code. Just like any other airline.
I have never had grief for being late yet.
Ryanair alter the RTOW as a paper excersise for dispatch, either 66990kg, 69990kg, or 74990kg are used. Without using the books, the aircraft is about 42250kg, 189 pax and bags is at most 17000kg. This still allows for 15000kg of fuel. Ryanair don't do long haul so i doubt if there would be anything like fifteen tons of fuel on board.
STN has a long runway so i doubt if there would be much restriction. So if there was a ten ton error, it would still be within the aircraft, and runway capability. If the aircraft is heavy, it is almost impossible to load it out of trim for pax.
The only thing that leaps out at me is if it were ten tons light, and badly trimmed you would have problems. But ten tons??
Yes, Ryanair do run a tight ship, if any of this is true, the crew are probably history by now.
Mr Good Cat.
We do 25 minute turn rounds, but that normaly isn't too difficult. If your'e late, you note the report with a delay code. Just like any other airline.
I have never had grief for being late yet.
Humanum est Erattum...or Errare Humanum Est (Humans make mistakes)
Marcus Tallius Cicero, Rome, circa 100BC.
To err is human....therefore put in place proceedures that accept this innevitability and catch them. The basic tennet of day-one CRM.
Not in any way trying to apportion blame, just reminding anyone where we ought to all be aiming our SOPs.
Marcus Tallius Cicero, Rome, circa 100BC.
To err is human....therefore put in place proceedures that accept this innevitability and catch them. The basic tennet of day-one CRM.
Not in any way trying to apportion blame, just reminding anyone where we ought to all be aiming our SOPs.
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Speculation
ballsout- I think you will find a previous poster has already identified the probable cause which should eliminate any further speculation.
The original poster of the above comment mentioned something about an RTO - Is he suggesting the take-off was rejected after Vr? My understanding was that after the minor strike on departure the aircraft returned to STN pretty soon after - hence all the flashing blue lights.