JAL plane attempts takeoff without permission in Hokkaido
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Yeah I know what you mean by 'lost'...it actually happened when I was visiting a tower recently. But before I even understood what the problem was it was fixed and contact had been made! So I know what you mean about it being resolved quickly. I have a question regarding transponder codes...The ATCO...normally the ground controller correct? Will give the pilot the squak...at what point does this get input? Before or after takeoff...? And why do the numbers only range from 1-7?? Thanks
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dazdaz
Nope never been rainbow (first signed up as take5 years ago, but then drifted away, couldn't remember my name so signed back up as this one). Why do you ask?
I think my reply and advice to rumble was 100% spot on and stand by it if that's what you are referring to!
Nope never been rainbow (first signed up as take5 years ago, but then drifted away, couldn't remember my name so signed back up as this one). Why do you ask?
I think my reply and advice to rumble was 100% spot on and stand by it if that's what you are referring to!
Last edited by anotherthing; 18th Feb 2008 at 17:10.
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...The ATCO...normally the ground controller correct? Will give the pilot the squak...at what point does this get input? Before or after takeoff...? And why do the numbers only range from 1-7?? Thanks.
The numbers only go to 7 'coz mode A is a binary system (well Octal I suppose) hence 8 choices.
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Anotherthing
When I learned this years ago I was in forces in the US being given a briefing by ATC. Admittedly it was more in relation to a departure clearance ("cleared to climb to FL 150 expect FL___ to cruise"). Using loss of comms you would follow your flight plan but we were told we should use the level given in the 'expect' part. I still believe this to be true. As for the example above I spoke to a supervisor at Swanwick very recently who told me (using expect FL130 at goodwood as an example) that they would expect this clearance to be complied with even without the actual subsequent descent instruction being heard. Especially as it is a restriction on the chart as well and if you were not 130 or below by Goodwood you really would be in the way big time.
You are an ATCO and I am not but I'm not just spouting here I was repeating what I learned by official means.
I am happy to be wrong we all want to be singing from the same sheet but get off your high horse & discuss rather than playing mister holier than.
Cheers
When I learned this years ago I was in forces in the US being given a briefing by ATC. Admittedly it was more in relation to a departure clearance ("cleared to climb to FL 150 expect FL___ to cruise"). Using loss of comms you would follow your flight plan but we were told we should use the level given in the 'expect' part. I still believe this to be true. As for the example above I spoke to a supervisor at Swanwick very recently who told me (using expect FL130 at goodwood as an example) that they would expect this clearance to be complied with even without the actual subsequent descent instruction being heard. Especially as it is a restriction on the chart as well and if you were not 130 or below by Goodwood you really would be in the way big time.
You are an ATCO and I am not but I'm not just spouting here I was repeating what I learned by official means.
I am happy to be wrong we all want to be singing from the same sheet but get off your high horse & discuss rather than playing mister holier than.
Cheers
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Lights flashing from towers in recent times
Quote
I fly a clunky old machine which was 'new' in the decade of big hair and bigger red braces in the city and we have 2 VHF radios, 2 HF radios a transponder and any number of mobile phones with which to communicate with the outside world. I think the days of flying around triangles and doing low passes to see a light flashed from the tower are probably behind us!
I do know of an incident involving a major UK RAF site where total coms was lost and yes they were at the end of the runway with tilly lamps.....
I fly a clunky old machine which was 'new' in the decade of big hair and bigger red braces in the city and we have 2 VHF radios, 2 HF radios a transponder and any number of mobile phones with which to communicate with the outside world. I think the days of flying around triangles and doing low passes to see a light flashed from the tower are probably behind us!
I do know of an incident involving a major UK RAF site where total coms was lost and yes they were at the end of the runway with tilly lamps.....
Last edited by radio ears; 18th Feb 2008 at 19:23. Reason: to make it clearer and include a quote
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Rumble.
I was going to apologise for being a little harsh, but when I thought about it I realised I had nothing to apologise for.
If I came across as holier than thou, then re read my post. Your post was made in a manner that would lead someone reading it to believe you are an ATCO. You stated as fact, a practice that is inherently dangerous.
Most pilots (like most ATCOs) on PPRuNe would not blindly believe everything on here, especially if something did not ring true. Unfortunately, due to the nuances of the English language, a tiny percentage of pilots or ATCOs might think that what they read here is Gospel and then carry out that action when it next occurs.
Another scenario is that someone who has read your post is given, in the future, an 'expect' statement in their clearance and then lo and behold, suffers a comms failure.
In the scrabble to work out what has occured and what the next course of action should be, they just might have a niggle in the back of their mind that tells them they should carry out the 'expect' part of the clearance - they can't remember where they heard it, but they know they heard it somewhere, from an ATCO of all people, so for the purposes of expediancy, that's what they will do.
If the above sounds far fetched, then think again... it's a failing in human nature and perfectly feasible.
What you heard from the sources in the US is correct to an extent, albeit it seems a little lost somewhere either in interpretation or otherwise. However it has nothing to do with the word 'expect FL' and all to do with the lost comms procedure and following a flight planned FL.
If that is what the Supervisor (I'm guessing a South Bank LAS in AC) told you, then they are wrong.
PM me their name and I will happily ensure that they are made aware of this - not for any other purpose other than flight safety. (I will of course make sure that they did indeed mean it and that is was not just a misunderstanding)
Every single day there are a handful of aircraft inbound to Gatwick (thats the FL130 level GWC restriction) that do not meet the level restriction. Contrary to what you heard, there is nothing to
off if the restriction is not met.
I personally find it very hard to believe that any ATCO said what you have quoted regarding 'expect'... even an LAS or GS!
Believe me Rumble, my high horse is well and truly in the stable... I, like the majority of ATCO's, have quite strong opinions, but I am always willing to listen and accept when I am wrong.
In this instance I believe that the error needed to be pointed out and firmly dispelled.
If I were you, I would personally amend or delete my post... I certainly would not feel happy leaving it knowing the possible consequences it might have. As an airline employee, you should understand the principal of acting responsibly
I was going to apologise for being a little harsh, but when I thought about it I realised I had nothing to apologise for.
If I came across as holier than thou, then re read my post. Your post was made in a manner that would lead someone reading it to believe you are an ATCO. You stated as fact, a practice that is inherently dangerous.
Perhaps not in this instance but actually the word 'expect' is actually a completely standard bit of clearance terminology & has a very specific meaning, which is:- if you lose comms carry out the instructions that were given after the word expect.
Another scenario is that someone who has read your post is given, in the future, an 'expect' statement in their clearance and then lo and behold, suffers a comms failure.
In the scrabble to work out what has occured and what the next course of action should be, they just might have a niggle in the back of their mind that tells them they should carry out the 'expect' part of the clearance - they can't remember where they heard it, but they know they heard it somewhere, from an ATCO of all people, so for the purposes of expediancy, that's what they will do.
If the above sounds far fetched, then think again... it's a failing in human nature and perfectly feasible.
What you heard from the sources in the US is correct to an extent, albeit it seems a little lost somewhere either in interpretation or otherwise. However it has nothing to do with the word 'expect FL' and all to do with the lost comms procedure and following a flight planned FL.
If that is what the Supervisor (I'm guessing a South Bank LAS in AC) told you, then they are wrong.
PM me their name and I will happily ensure that they are made aware of this - not for any other purpose other than flight safety. (I will of course make sure that they did indeed mean it and that is was not just a misunderstanding)
I spoke to a supervisor at Swanwick very recently who told me (using expect FL130 at goodwood as an example) that they would expect this clearance to be complied with even without the actual subsequent descent instruction being heard. Especially as it is a restriction on the chart as well and if you were not 130 or below by Goodwood you really would be in the way big time.
be in the way big time
I personally find it very hard to believe that any ATCO said what you have quoted regarding 'expect'... even an LAS or GS!
Believe me Rumble, my high horse is well and truly in the stable... I, like the majority of ATCO's, have quite strong opinions, but I am always willing to listen and accept when I am wrong.
In this instance I believe that the error needed to be pointed out and firmly dispelled.
If I were you, I would personally amend or delete my post... I certainly would not feel happy leaving it knowing the possible consequences it might have. As an airline employee, you should understand the principal of acting responsibly
None but a blockhead
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It's my understanding that during some sim training, there's a (pretend?) ATCO on a microphone nearby providing simulated ATC over the simulated radio. Just hook up bods from other countries, over t'intarwebs if you don't fancy the phone bill. It's more realistic, and everyone benefits.
Alternatively, get these people to do an ICAO version.
More seriously: it's a safety issue and it's not going away, even if the proposed linguistic testing/self certification is implemented. Shouldn't it be treated as such, with an appropriate mix of technology and training identified that will accept that which cannot be changed and produce a solution that reduces the inherent risk?
R
Alternatively, get these people to do an ICAO version.
More seriously: it's a safety issue and it's not going away, even if the proposed linguistic testing/self certification is implemented. Shouldn't it be treated as such, with an appropriate mix of technology and training identified that will accept that which cannot be changed and produce a solution that reduces the inherent risk?
R
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Bear in mind as well that other cultures especially eastern have a problem with saying they do not understand what has been said to them.It is a loss of face as they appear (to themselves) stupid.
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Lights, codes, I don't think so, all aircraft taking an active runway in a very large aircraft should be ready for immediate departure, hopefully all agree, keep the phraseology simple, "line up and wait", "taxi into position and hold", whatever your flavor. When the runway is clear, issue the takeoff Clearance, simple, no need for some elaborate explanations when you don't speak English very well. If you don't have the separation, send someone around, if it's so tight, don't put him in position to begin with, anyone having trouble with this concept should visit Atlanta or Minneapolis.
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Lights, codes, I don't think so, all aircraft taking an active runway in a very large aircraft should be ready for immediate departure, hopefully all agree, keep the phraseology simple, "line up and wait", "taxi into position and hold", whatever your flavor. When the runway is clear, issue the takeoff Clearance, simple, no need for some elaborate explanations when you don't speak English very well. If you don't have the separation, send someone around, if it's so tight, don't put him in position to begin with, anyone having trouble with this concept should visit Atlanta or Minneapolis.
Any reference to takeoff prior to that point, i.e clearances etc should use the word "departure"
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For interest New Chitose is a military field with military controllers controlling a sh*tload of commercial aircraft from 74's down to saab's in conditions during winter that can mean the minima on landing (550m RVR) dissapears
to 100/200m for taxying.
They have parallel runway ops that mean someone, whether taking off or landing, will have to cross another operating runway (most often landing aircraft crossing departure runway.)
The military do things differently both operationally and in radio phraseology; this is by no means the only incident within the last year, generally things got better without any prangs however obviously a way to go.
An airfield where situational awareness and strong crew interreaction is extremely benificial (not strong points of Japanese aviation at any time but, hey, blind dumb obeisance is not a strongpoint for Americans/Brits/Australians etc so we all have our crosses to bear.)
As for "expect" - another departure in Japan will be cleared "maintain 3000, expect FL210."
Seeing I'm planning to go FL330 a waste of time telling me - but they still do, everytime. It'll take years for them to (collectively) appreciate it's a waste of time and then (collectively) adjust the clearance.
"Expect" on descent when cleared an intermediate level?? - Japan has heaps of crossing airways and heaps of crossing requirements which they will tend to issue even if you're the only aircraft within 100nm of the place (don't have to make a judgement decision and look what's actually happening, much betterer!) but operationally to have some idea of upcoming requirements is not a bad thing.
At least one big plus for the Japanese ATC - they've got it spot on with their phraseology when they are talking to "Qantas" aircraft!
Cheers all.
to 100/200m for taxying.
They have parallel runway ops that mean someone, whether taking off or landing, will have to cross another operating runway (most often landing aircraft crossing departure runway.)
The military do things differently both operationally and in radio phraseology; this is by no means the only incident within the last year, generally things got better without any prangs however obviously a way to go.
An airfield where situational awareness and strong crew interreaction is extremely benificial (not strong points of Japanese aviation at any time but, hey, blind dumb obeisance is not a strongpoint for Americans/Brits/Australians etc so we all have our crosses to bear.)
As for "expect" - another departure in Japan will be cleared "maintain 3000, expect FL210."
Seeing I'm planning to go FL330 a waste of time telling me - but they still do, everytime. It'll take years for them to (collectively) appreciate it's a waste of time and then (collectively) adjust the clearance.
"Expect" on descent when cleared an intermediate level?? - Japan has heaps of crossing airways and heaps of crossing requirements which they will tend to issue even if you're the only aircraft within 100nm of the place (don't have to make a judgement decision and look what's actually happening, much betterer!) but operationally to have some idea of upcoming requirements is not a bad thing.
At least one big plus for the Japanese ATC - they've got it spot on with their phraseology when they are talking to "Qantas" aircraft!
Cheers all.
