Runway Incursions In Dubai
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Runway Incursions In Dubai
After yet another very dangerous Runway Incursion at OMDB, there seems to be a new procedure being integrated for Runway Crossings RWY 12L/30R. When Taxiing from the E-Apron, with departure RWY 12R, expect to be crossed at N1.
2 very close calls in the vicinity of N4 have proven to be a dangerous scenario between landing traffic and crossing traffic.
What are your thoughts on this?
2 very close calls in the vicinity of N4 have proven to be a dangerous scenario between landing traffic and crossing traffic.
What are your thoughts on this?
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L3/L4
On the subject of potential confusion.....why on taxying westbound on Mike, approaching L4 are we met with a slightly smaller sign than the rest practically indicating that for L3/L4 we should turn left on L4...got me the other night( it was that little arrow)..average dude that i am! Am I the only one...and if not..why have the locals not seen about its demise?
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Dang that Murphy-guy....
Conditional clearances, issued routinely by DXB to large international group, in my opinion is not a good practice. "cleared to cross runway after landing traffic on final...." =trouble
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Red Stop bars OMDB
Anyone had problems at OMDB with being cleared to cross the parallel runway and then the red stop bars remain illuminated?
I have encountered this several times after landing on 30R and then being cleared to cross 30L.
I've also had this happen after being cleared to line up for departure on 12R on M4(?)
I have encountered this several times after landing on 30R and then being cleared to cross 30L.
I've also had this happen after being cleared to line up for departure on 12R on M4(?)
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Well they put out this NOTAM now.
1A6/08
DUE TO AN INCREASED NR OF RWY INCURSIONS AT DUBAI,
OPERATORS ARE REQ TO REMAIN VIGILANT WHEN COMPLYING
WITH TAXI INSTRUCTIONS AND AS SUCH REQUIRES ATC
PERMISSION TO ENTER/CROSS RWY.
So I guess all subsequent runway incursions are the pilot's fault.
1A6/08
DUE TO AN INCREASED NR OF RWY INCURSIONS AT DUBAI,
OPERATORS ARE REQ TO REMAIN VIGILANT WHEN COMPLYING
WITH TAXI INSTRUCTIONS AND AS SUCH REQUIRES ATC
PERMISSION TO ENTER/CROSS RWY.
So I guess all subsequent runway incursions are the pilot's fault.
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yo,
ive had that prob once of being cleared to cross the red bars. if they dont practice the procedure properly they might as well remove the stop bars.
kuwait is another culprit.
you dont see lon having any of these issues.
rgds.
ive had that prob once of being cleared to cross the red bars. if they dont practice the procedure properly they might as well remove the stop bars.
kuwait is another culprit.
you dont see lon having any of these issues.
rgds.
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If the red lights don't go out - don't cross.
Just stay put and when convenient ask ATC to switch them off.
If every crew did this (and not just at this particular spot) things would be safer, but you might encounter a slight delay.
Sir George Cayley
Just stay put and when convenient ask ATC to switch them off.
If every crew did this (and not just at this particular spot) things would be safer, but you might encounter a slight delay.
Sir George Cayley
Phraseology
Quote from TOGA! :
" Conditional clearances, issued routinely by DXB to large international group, in my opinion is not a good practice. "cleared to cross runway after landing traffic on final...." =trouble. "
Unquote
Don't know today's Dubai, but surely the above phraseology should never be heard from the mouth of any controller, nor from the pilot reading it back.
One of the lessons drawn from the notorious Tenerife-North runway collision, as long ago as the late 1970s, was that conditional clearances can be misinterpreted, particularly if the "condition" part of the transmission is blocked by reception problems, being "stepped on", or radio failure. This realisation resulted in fundamental changes to R/T phraseology, which continued to be refined in the many years after.
The relevant change in this case is that the condition must always come BEFORE the permission/instruction, e,g.,
"Caledonian 123, behind the landing 747 on short final, cross runway one-two-left."
The crew's readback must always follow the same rule, for the same reason. 99% of controllers at large airports soon took this on board. Trouble is, many line piots and trainers - even when I retired (end of 2001) - were still getting it wrong...
" Conditional clearances, issued routinely by DXB to large international group, in my opinion is not a good practice. "cleared to cross runway after landing traffic on final...." =trouble. "
Unquote
Don't know today's Dubai, but surely the above phraseology should never be heard from the mouth of any controller, nor from the pilot reading it back.
One of the lessons drawn from the notorious Tenerife-North runway collision, as long ago as the late 1970s, was that conditional clearances can be misinterpreted, particularly if the "condition" part of the transmission is blocked by reception problems, being "stepped on", or radio failure. This realisation resulted in fundamental changes to R/T phraseology, which continued to be refined in the many years after.
The relevant change in this case is that the condition must always come BEFORE the permission/instruction, e,g.,
"Caledonian 123, behind the landing 747 on short final, cross runway one-two-left."
The crew's readback must always follow the same rule, for the same reason. 99% of controllers at large airports soon took this on board. Trouble is, many line piots and trainers - even when I retired (end of 2001) - were still getting it wrong...
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They do say it twice, and you should read it back twice.
"Caledonian 123, behind the landing 747 on short final, cross runway one-two-left. BEHIND"
I don't like the practice myself either. It does little to speed things up, and I don't trust the other pilots to follow the instructions.
When the controller sees the arriving aircraft pass the threashold, then they should issue to the "Line up and Wait" clearance to the next guy in line.
The problem in OMDB is that it's short-staffed. So the controllers are too busy to watch where the planes are.
"Caledonian 123, behind the landing 747 on short final, cross runway one-two-left. BEHIND"
I don't like the practice myself either. It does little to speed things up, and I don't trust the other pilots to follow the instructions.
When the controller sees the arriving aircraft pass the threashold, then they should issue to the "Line up and Wait" clearance to the next guy in line.
The problem in OMDB is that it's short-staffed. So the controllers are too busy to watch where the planes are.
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I have to say that when I have operated into DXB that I have found simple R/T discipline to be lacking. Not only from pilots but also from some of the controllers. Often clearances / readbacks are given without the callsign being part of the clearance.
eg " EK 201 cleared to line up behind the 737 on final"
" err Sorry Tower confirm cleared to line up "
" affirm line up behind the landing 737"
Problem is some Illlusion or any one also tunes in at the second sentence
( or us on the day i heard this) and only hears "affirm line up behind the landing 737". Off course we questioned it , but its open for incursions.
I must say not an isolated incident , I encourage the DXB ATC,s to have a listen to the tapes and see just how often the callsign is omitted from transmissions ( Pilots and controllers alike) it will be astonishing !!
eg " EK 201 cleared to line up behind the 737 on final"
" err Sorry Tower confirm cleared to line up "
" affirm line up behind the landing 737"
Problem is some Illlusion or any one also tunes in at the second sentence
( or us on the day i heard this) and only hears "affirm line up behind the landing 737". Off course we questioned it , but its open for incursions.
I must say not an isolated incident , I encourage the DXB ATC,s to have a listen to the tapes and see just how often the callsign is omitted from transmissions ( Pilots and controllers alike) it will be astonishing !!
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At our unit (Nats UK) we are trying is discourage the ues of conditional clearances as much as possible.It is quite easy to eliminate almost all of them,and we have to co-ordinate every departure.
Crossing red stop bars is another big no no here.Unless there are very specific reasons,you don't cross the red bars.
Clearances without a callsign.
Well what can I say. Level bust data,runway incursion data,not listening to readbacks it's all there.
It sounds that ATC is Dubai is lacking in standards and not bothering to look at the latest thinking on this.I would address the problem to the Management at Serco,Dubai and see what they say.Their Training and Ops should be checking the standard of operational controllers.If they aren't they better start.
Crossing red stop bars is another big no no here.Unless there are very specific reasons,you don't cross the red bars.
Clearances without a callsign.
Well what can I say. Level bust data,runway incursion data,not listening to readbacks it's all there.It sounds that ATC is Dubai is lacking in standards and not bothering to look at the latest thinking on this.I would address the problem to the Management at Serco,Dubai and see what they say.Their Training and Ops should be checking the standard of operational controllers.If they aren't they better start.
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"cleared to cross runway after landing traffic on final...."
Maybe if the CORRECT phraseology was used problems might not occur.
Why are runways incursions increasing? I worked Heathrow Tower for 20+ years and never had one, although I did see 2 - yes, just two. Are people less diligent than they used to be?
Maybe if the CORRECT phraseology was used problems might not occur.
Why are runways incursions increasing? I worked Heathrow Tower for 20+ years and never had one, although I did see 2 - yes, just two. Are people less diligent than they used to be?
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"cleared to cross runway after landing traffic on final...."
Not only is this incorrect phraseology - it certainly does worry the approaching traffic on final to hear a transmission that start with cleared to cross runway...
If indeed conditional clearances are jeopardizing safety I think the controllers should stop issuing them - even more so in parts of the world where non-militant, non-standard, and non-vigilance exists.
CAP413 chaps!
Not only is this incorrect phraseology - it certainly does worry the approaching traffic on final to hear a transmission that start with cleared to cross runway...
If indeed conditional clearances are jeopardizing safety I think the controllers should stop issuing them - even more so in parts of the world where non-militant, non-standard, and non-vigilance exists.
CAP413 chaps!
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Ah brilliant the joy of PPrune!
There is no evidence that the phraseology quoted by TOGA was actually used, in fact in my career I've only ever heard phraseolgy as poor as that from flight crew.
Any 'UK' trained controller worth their salt would never use phraseology like that, I think we're being very presumptious to assume all DXB controllers would do!
The tone of TOGA's post suggests to me that he thinks all conditional clearances have an element of danger, IMHO they do, but when used safely with a positive clear readback, they are fantastic tool that allows the controller to move onto their next task.
As ever ISTBC
HD there are more runway incursions at LL now as the definition of what a runway incursion is has changed! Did you really only see 2 in your 20 odd years? Don't forget that an out of sequence line-up caused by a missed read back or flight deck confusion counts. At LL before we stopped multiple conditional line-ups, one a day of these incursions was a regular occurance.
There is no evidence that the phraseology quoted by TOGA was actually used, in fact in my career I've only ever heard phraseolgy as poor as that from flight crew.
Any 'UK' trained controller worth their salt would never use phraseology like that, I think we're being very presumptious to assume all DXB controllers would do!
The tone of TOGA's post suggests to me that he thinks all conditional clearances have an element of danger, IMHO they do, but when used safely with a positive clear readback, they are fantastic tool that allows the controller to move onto their next task.
As ever ISTBC
HD there are more runway incursions at LL now as the definition of what a runway incursion is has changed! Did you really only see 2 in your 20 odd years? Don't forget that an out of sequence line-up caused by a missed read back or flight deck confusion counts. At LL before we stopped multiple conditional line-ups, one a day of these incursions was a regular occurance.
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There are certain airports where you can use conditional clearances, and get away with nonstandard phraseology. But Dubai is not one of them.
- Rapid expansion with a trainee controller under watch most days it seems now
- Construction
- Short Staffing
- APT over capacity at peak times
- Poor airspace design/ cooridination with UAE Centre
- Operators varying from Iran's Assaman, China Southern, Korean Air, Russian transports that cross threashold at 3 feet, white aircraft of unknown origin, to a rapidly expanding homebase airline with 85 nationalities in the flight deck.
- Primary ground frequency that's blocked by lengthy clearance deliveries that should be on a separate freq, or better yet invest in a PDC.
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<<Did you really only see 2 in your 20 odd years? >>
Yes. I left there in 1992 (or was it 93?) for TC so things obviously changed after that. With multiple conditional line-ups I was trained to be absolutely 100% certain that pilots understood and I never made a mistake in that respect. That's why I post notes on here pointing out bad phraseology - and it's always pilots who say "line up after the landing xxx", not ATCOs. Why do they do it?
Yes. I left there in 1992 (or was it 93?) for TC so things obviously changed after that. With multiple conditional line-ups I was trained to be absolutely 100% certain that pilots understood and I never made a mistake in that respect. That's why I post notes on here pointing out bad phraseology - and it's always pilots who say "line up after the landing xxx", not ATCOs. Why do they do it?
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Stopbars in Dubai
I have seen listings about stopbar issues in OMDB. Working there I can tell you it is very unsatisfactory for us as well. The *crap* system we have works in an strange way. Once turned off the stopbars relight after 60 secs. instead of relighting after being crossed like in the most other airports across the World (induction circle). It has been addressed and is being dealt with, however you know how quickly certain things go in the middle east
Anyways hope that helps a bit, I know it's not satisfying but crap system = crap results...
cheers
HB-UAE
Anyways hope that helps a bit, I know it's not satisfying but crap system = crap results...
cheers
HB-UAE
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conditional clearances...
TOGA,
Great point! If the ATCO used your exact wording, it is non-standard phraseologie. Conditional line-up clearances are usually not a problem as long as they are given very specifically and according to ICAO phraseologie. In this case it should have been... Callsign XX, B E H I N D landing Airbus A330 (3 miles final), line up RWY 12L and wait B E H I N D. If this clearance is clearly read back then there should not be an issue at all.
Not at all do I want to say that I always only use standard phraseologie whilst working, however there are certain situations where it is of utmost importance that one does and such a situation includes clearances onto RWYs etc.
I'd be interested in what others have to say about this, but my experience has definately proven exactly this.
Cheers and take care
HB-UAE
Great point! If the ATCO used your exact wording, it is non-standard phraseologie. Conditional line-up clearances are usually not a problem as long as they are given very specifically and according to ICAO phraseologie. In this case it should have been... Callsign XX, B E H I N D landing Airbus A330 (3 miles final), line up RWY 12L and wait B E H I N D. If this clearance is clearly read back then there should not be an issue at all.
Not at all do I want to say that I always only use standard phraseologie whilst working, however there are certain situations where it is of utmost importance that one does and such a situation includes clearances onto RWYs etc.
I'd be interested in what others have to say about this, but my experience has definately proven exactly this.
Cheers and take care
HB-UAE