Runway Incursions In Dubai
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I'm thinking I'm thinking
Firstly "the cleared to cross Rwy X behind the landing acft" is definitely not the standard practise at Dubai. Where conditional clearances are used, it is done using "XYZ, behind ...the landing (type ) line up Rwy X behind " and this is often preceded with the call "xyz do you have the type on final in sight" (this incidentally should be used for all conditional line up clearances)
So the Dubai ATCO's using that non standard RT are the exception not the norm ... especially with the crowd I hang around,
I have however heard countless wrong readbacks from the crew after having received the correct cond clearance exp. (a/c readback) "Line up behind the landing Goof Air 123"
Which is why I have always maintained that with a long Rwy like we have, long roll outs, especially in Summer, I cannot see the advantage of using a conditional line up clearance in the first instance ....it saves you NO time.
If you wait to visually sight the landing acft cross the a/c at the holding point, then issue a standard "XYZ , Rwy12 R line up and wait" you are saving yourself a whole stack of extra RT time. Also the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) comes to the fore using the easy simple method ? Agreed? I challenge anyone to prove me wrong on this. The only instance where possible time is saved is when the landing a/c will be off the Rwy soon after landing (PA28) and then possibly the waiting crew could have started moving a bit sooner onto the Rwy....we're talking fractional time saving.
Stop Bars
Stop bars at Dubai go back on automatically after 60 seconds - bearing in mind we need to cancel two stop bars for EACH a/c departing Rwy30R and one for each dep off Rwy12R / 30L. Likewise one stopbar for each arrival Rwy12L that is a lot of clicking for one controller pushing 35-45 or even more, movements an hour (not counting the countless VFR helicopters). So is the Tower man busy ?...yep you bet ya, given equipment/ergonomics of Tower/ "type" of customers etc etc.
So flight "Never-Grumpy345" calls Tower while taxiing along to the crossing point of the Rwy....After been cleared to cross, Capt Happiness and 1st Off Smiley take longer than 60 sec to reach and cross ... stop bar goes back on ....and Capt Happiness, despite receiving a crossing clearance from the same person doing those damned irritating lights, slams on breaks, instantly upgrading the whole of cattle class to first class...then transmits over several other important transmissions in a voice that has reached grumpy level 10 .... "Ehhhhh mumble WE STILL HAVE REDS HERE !!! "
Now the fact that the person controlling the very lights causing the concern, is also the very same person that has instructed you to cross that Rwy, an instruction that was readback, seems to be of no consequence !! THE LIGHTS CAN'T SAVE YOU FROM ANYTHING ...they are on/off normal lights ....no inbuilt pressure sensors, computers ...NOTHING !! Now please don't hear/perceive what I am NOT saying
Consider this ...when I am driving along approaching a traffic light that is red and a traffic officer shows me that I may proceed ...I do just that ... I don't slam on brakes and shout through the window to him that the lights are red ...or do you?
What about at the countless airports throughout the world that do not use stop bars, either not by day, or only in CAT II conditions.
Perhaps if stop bars where mandated world wide and they were made to have some artificial intelligence then perhaps they would become even more beneficial ...
The proximity of the rwy's, insufficient/improper markings, the fact that ATC talks to someone in the cockpit who then re-translates to some other guy in another language, Wrong readbacks not corrected ...those are the cause of a lot of incidents.
So the Dubai ATCO's using that non standard RT are the exception not the norm ... especially with the crowd I hang around,
I have however heard countless wrong readbacks from the crew after having received the correct cond clearance exp. (a/c readback) "Line up behind the landing Goof Air 123"
Which is why I have always maintained that with a long Rwy like we have, long roll outs, especially in Summer, I cannot see the advantage of using a conditional line up clearance in the first instance ....it saves you NO time.
If you wait to visually sight the landing acft cross the a/c at the holding point, then issue a standard "XYZ , Rwy12 R line up and wait" you are saving yourself a whole stack of extra RT time. Also the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) comes to the fore using the easy simple method ? Agreed? I challenge anyone to prove me wrong on this. The only instance where possible time is saved is when the landing a/c will be off the Rwy soon after landing (PA28) and then possibly the waiting crew could have started moving a bit sooner onto the Rwy....we're talking fractional time saving.
Stop Bars
Stop bars at Dubai go back on automatically after 60 seconds - bearing in mind we need to cancel two stop bars for EACH a/c departing Rwy30R and one for each dep off Rwy12R / 30L. Likewise one stopbar for each arrival Rwy12L that is a lot of clicking for one controller pushing 35-45 or even more, movements an hour (not counting the countless VFR helicopters). So is the Tower man busy ?...yep you bet ya, given equipment/ergonomics of Tower/ "type" of customers etc etc.
So flight "Never-Grumpy345" calls Tower while taxiing along to the crossing point of the Rwy....After been cleared to cross, Capt Happiness and 1st Off Smiley take longer than 60 sec to reach and cross ... stop bar goes back on ....and Capt Happiness, despite receiving a crossing clearance from the same person doing those damned irritating lights, slams on breaks, instantly upgrading the whole of cattle class to first class...then transmits over several other important transmissions in a voice that has reached grumpy level 10 .... "Ehhhhh mumble WE STILL HAVE REDS HERE !!! "
Now the fact that the person controlling the very lights causing the concern, is also the very same person that has instructed you to cross that Rwy, an instruction that was readback, seems to be of no consequence !! THE LIGHTS CAN'T SAVE YOU FROM ANYTHING ...they are on/off normal lights ....no inbuilt pressure sensors, computers ...NOTHING !! Now please don't hear/perceive what I am NOT saying
Consider this ...when I am driving along approaching a traffic light that is red and a traffic officer shows me that I may proceed ...I do just that ... I don't slam on brakes and shout through the window to him that the lights are red ...or do you?
What about at the countless airports throughout the world that do not use stop bars, either not by day, or only in CAT II conditions.
Perhaps if stop bars where mandated world wide and they were made to have some artificial intelligence then perhaps they would become even more beneficial ...
The proximity of the rwy's, insufficient/improper markings, the fact that ATC talks to someone in the cockpit who then re-translates to some other guy in another language, Wrong readbacks not corrected ...those are the cause of a lot of incidents.
Last edited by say what; 10th Mar 2008 at 06:16.
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say what - I understand entirely what you are saying, but it is not only our company SOP not to cross red stop bars unless specifically cleared to do so by ATC but also they are our last line of defence against a runway incursion. What if you had cleared us to line up 60 secs ago and the traffic that was at 5 miles then is now at 2 but the RT is busy and you are unable to tell us to cancel line up clearance and hold short of rwy xx . If we as flight crew decide to ignore it as you recommend how exactly do we explain at tea and biscuits that we saw the red stop bar and chose to cross it anyway? To do so in my opinion could be classed as negligent and something I personally would not be happy to do. I would rather accept a few seconds of delay in order to get a clearance to cross the reds than continue to proceed across them and risk a runway incursion.
The other problem if given a clearance to line up 60 seconds prior to reaching the holding point is that this is often a busy time with us completing checks - takeoff reviews - cabin ready calls and after all that there is often then an element of doubt that can creep in if we were cleared to line up or not. A red stop bar only reinforces this element of doubt and a quick call to your good self is required for us to re confirm the clearance. - If there is any doubt there is no doubt.
The other problem if given a clearance to line up 60 seconds prior to reaching the holding point is that this is often a busy time with us completing checks - takeoff reviews - cabin ready calls and after all that there is often then an element of doubt that can creep in if we were cleared to line up or not. A red stop bar only reinforces this element of doubt and a quick call to your good self is required for us to re confirm the clearance. - If there is any doubt there is no doubt.
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Could not agree more. Under no circumstances will I ever cross a red stop-bar for the reasons just stated.
The problem is a DXB atc/airfield problem and the solution must be found within DXB ATC or the DGCA. If you want to have people crossing stop bars then issue a notam advising us that we can do so and maybe then we'll talk. Anybody in DXB ATC prepared to do that?
The problem is a DXB atc/airfield problem and the solution must be found within DXB ATC or the DGCA. If you want to have people crossing stop bars then issue a notam advising us that we can do so and maybe then we'll talk. Anybody in DXB ATC prepared to do that?
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... hell no. By no means issue a NOTAM like that. I understand both sides! I personally rather have Pilots come back and ask if they can cross then just crossing. However the tone in which is asked is a large factor in getting an ATCO p.o.-ed especially when it is not really his fault that the system he/she is working with is not good!
I'd like to repeat myself by saying... It is quite frustrating having to work with a stopbar system that turns back on automatically after 60 secs. Let me give you 2 easy examples.
1- with a conditional line-up clearance to line-up behind a landing a/c @ 3 miles final, turning off the stopbar would result that it comes back on when the inbound is about 1 mile final... being distracted with other a/c this often results in the usual... *red lights*...
and it is not a fact that we didn't turn them off it is the fact that they just come back on automatically!
2- an outbound a/c calls on twy K (still some 200 meters before K10.. which is ok...) approaching K11. crossing clearance is issued, the stopbars turned off, but by the time the big A340-500 or B777-300 has actually reached K11 and turned 90°, more than 60 secs have passed and the stopbar is lit up again.. again *red lights*...
and again it is not a fact that we didn't turn them off it is the fact that they just came back on.
I usually try to practise double clicking the stopbar after about 20-30 secs
to restart the 60 secs however sometimes workload just doesn't permit this. Please try not to forget the amount of coordination that we do for repositioning a/c, non standard departures etc. etc.
Cheers for now and I'm sure most people understand the problem and we all know not everything is Gold that shines... not...
bye bye
HB-UAE
I'd like to repeat myself by saying... It is quite frustrating having to work with a stopbar system that turns back on automatically after 60 secs. Let me give you 2 easy examples.
1- with a conditional line-up clearance to line-up behind a landing a/c @ 3 miles final, turning off the stopbar would result that it comes back on when the inbound is about 1 mile final... being distracted with other a/c this often results in the usual... *red lights*...
and it is not a fact that we didn't turn them off it is the fact that they just come back on automatically!2- an outbound a/c calls on twy K (still some 200 meters before K10.. which is ok...) approaching K11. crossing clearance is issued, the stopbars turned off, but by the time the big A340-500 or B777-300 has actually reached K11 and turned 90°, more than 60 secs have passed and the stopbar is lit up again.. again *red lights*...
and again it is not a fact that we didn't turn them off it is the fact that they just came back on.I usually try to practise double clicking the stopbar after about 20-30 secs
to restart the 60 secs however sometimes workload just doesn't permit this. Please try not to forget the amount of coordination that we do for repositioning a/c, non standard departures etc. etc.Cheers for now and I'm sure most people understand the problem and we all know not everything is Gold that shines... not...
bye bye
HB-UAE
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Stall Inducer ...r u implying an ATC gave u a line up instruction, then ealised he goofed up , could'nt find RT time to cancel your line up and then uses the lights to help him out the poopoo ? have'nt thought about that scenario ....valid point ... possible to do ....can't recall anyone doing it ...but yes possible .
The 60 second time out peev becomes even greater not for the active landing and dep Rwy (30R) but for crossing the closed dis-used 30L. i do realise, much to my own disgust that one can't possibly make exceptions.
A/c calls halfway down K en-route to K10/K11 crossing ...u can cross him and save RT ,...so u do so ....BUT now u have to remember that u still need to cancel the stop bar a little while later when it's in the 60s window .... see the frustration and workload ? This is perfectly highlighted by HB-UAE above ...
And yes Stall Inducer ... I have just re-read your 2nd point ....also quite valid .... Bottom line it's an understand / understand scenario ....perhaps one of the Emirates crew would like to re-post this on their forum or notice boards ...
Getting back to the RT thing ..... a taxi clearance "taxy M4 holding point Rwy12R " Cannot/may not be readback as:
"m4 Rwy12R ....goof Air123" (no clearance limit readback)
"Hold short m4 12R" (hold short of or on M4 - where on M4)
Holding short is not neessarily at the holding point line (60m from Rwy's longer than 900m) .... Most Holding points at Dubai are CATII approx 100m from Rwy edge....see the difference ?
It's NOT a case of same same ...
The 60 second time out peev becomes even greater not for the active landing and dep Rwy (30R) but for crossing the closed dis-used 30L. i do realise, much to my own disgust that one can't possibly make exceptions.
A/c calls halfway down K en-route to K10/K11 crossing ...u can cross him and save RT ,...so u do so ....BUT now u have to remember that u still need to cancel the stop bar a little while later when it's in the 60s window .... see the frustration and workload ? This is perfectly highlighted by HB-UAE above ...
And yes Stall Inducer ... I have just re-read your 2nd point ....also quite valid .... Bottom line it's an understand / understand scenario ....perhaps one of the Emirates crew would like to re-post this on their forum or notice boards ...
Getting back to the RT thing ..... a taxi clearance "taxy M4 holding point Rwy12R " Cannot/may not be readback as:
"m4 Rwy12R ....goof Air123" (no clearance limit readback)
"Hold short m4 12R" (hold short of or on M4 - where on M4)
Holding short is not neessarily at the holding point line (60m from Rwy's longer than 900m) .... Most Holding points at Dubai are CATII approx 100m from Rwy edge....see the difference ?
It's NOT a case of same same ...
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Runway Incursions in Dubai
Conditional Clearances
Have to agree with say what. Conditional clearances rarely save any time but introduce a new element of risk. I use them only when I consider that they will help me use a gap which will otherwise be lost. I also refuse to say behind twice, for this reason: I say "Traffic is a 737 on final behind that aircraft line up." Pilot's readback must include the word behind, otherwise I will be down his throat looking for the word. Not standard? So shoot me. Using this phrase I have not had an aircraft line up incorrectly in the past 19 and a half years. Conditional clearances, with a few exceptions, save little time and by my observation and IMHO when used for virtually every single line up or runway crossing they are the refuge of a lazy controller who can't or won't watch his traffic.
But that's just my opinion of course.
Have to agree with say what. Conditional clearances rarely save any time but introduce a new element of risk. I use them only when I consider that they will help me use a gap which will otherwise be lost. I also refuse to say behind twice, for this reason: I say "Traffic is a 737 on final behind that aircraft line up." Pilot's readback must include the word behind, otherwise I will be down his throat looking for the word. Not standard? So shoot me. Using this phrase I have not had an aircraft line up incorrectly in the past 19 and a half years. Conditional clearances, with a few exceptions, save little time and by my observation and IMHO when used for virtually every single line up or runway crossing they are the refuge of a lazy controller who can't or won't watch his traffic.
But that's just my opinion of course.
Say What - it can take quite a few seconds to get a 370 tonne 345 moving, especially UP the slope at K10 and K11, so feasibly yep, the 60 seconds is up before we've crossed and I WILL NOT CROSS RED STOP-LIGHTS (unless they're notamed as stuck on and I've double checked with ATC)
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Have to agree with WK. I always check before crossing, even in daylight.
But isn't there at least one stop-bar (some where on M - M10 crossing 12L?) that ATC claim to have no control over? Thought they mentioned that the other day.
But isn't there at least one stop-bar (some where on M - M10 crossing 12L?) that ATC claim to have no control over? Thought they mentioned that the other day.
