Ex CityFlyer Routes scrapped by BA
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Hand Solo
The points you make I would agree with and the reason people like "rhythm method" as so upset is as you say you work for BA, not BACE.
Try telling that to the people running BACE!
Rhythm method has been told that he may not be on the next 146 course because it is intended that the positions are going to be given to BAR pilots.
This is not uninformed claptrap. We await with interest to see what BALPA will do.
The points you make I would agree with and the reason people like "rhythm method" as so upset is as you say you work for BA, not BACE.
Try telling that to the people running BACE!
Rhythm method has been told that he may not be on the next 146 course because it is intended that the positions are going to be given to BAR pilots.
This is not uninformed claptrap. We await with interest to see what BALPA will do.
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I think the key words are "BACE jobs offered to BAR pilots" or "BACE jobs given to BAR pilots". The latter seems unlikely, but I'm sure the former will happen if the current rumours are to be believed. Then it's down to T&Cs vs. the alternatives.
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Squeeker,
Excellent banter old boy.
9 years in the RAF, 6 sitting in Tornado's hoping they wouldn't go bang matey. Absolutley delighted and thank my God on a regular basis i was lucky enough not to have to get into hock for £60k to get my job. Silver spoon? Yeah my life is great, thanks for asking.
Yes my spelling is crap, do i care...eh no.
My point for the last time.
1. If you never leave the RJ then you will not be disadvantaged. If you want to cross over to mainline and get a mainline command or a long haul rhs then you join the queue with everybody else. When your freeze is up you will just have to cope with the fact that you will be well down the list, like me, and that your options will be limited. Bad news for us both is that our hours in 4 years time will be irrelevant referance command, outwith your command at CFE, because our seniority will not get us one (other than on the rj for yourself).
2. I really don't care how you got your ATPL. RAF, BA Cadet, Self Improver, it don't matter. The only time i ever get upset is when i have to listnen to the anti-cadet crap and it's always from guys like you who did it the hard way and seem to hate anyone who was lucky enough to get the MOD or an Airline to pay for it.
3. Dan Air..yes many, if not most of them were shafted. Yes they have my smypathy. I don't see how my post insinuated i looked down on them or consider myself above them.
Many of the guy's who converted me onto the 737 where Ex Dan and it was some of the best training i ever recieved. Considerably better than much of my training in the RAF. I work with them all the time and the vast majority of them, all off them Capts obviously, are Magic. My piont was that it is the worst 5 day trip imaginable to be beside someone who does nothing but slag off the company they work for and harp on about how good Dan was and how crap BA is. There are not many but the truth is that there are a small and famous group who will not let it go. My apologies to the rest if i have upset them.
4. I don't consider myself above anyone mate. You seem to spend a lot of time pontificating about cadets, mainline, BAR, in fact anyone who is not ex CFE.
5. It happened. Get over it.
CFE or EOG routes, who cares! Same company, pay comes from the same account. I fly wherever i'm told and couldn't give a toss who used to do it.
Please feel free to not integrate yourself into the company with the rest of us. I'm sure having you sitting in the coffee bar reminiscing about being underpaid and taking your own lunch on trips with you will give us all a good laugh.
I hope we have not misunderstood each other. You seem to have some pretty stong opinions about Cadets on both their professional and personnel qualities. I think you don't have a clue what your on about.
If you want to get abusive or just enlighten on the Cadet qualities that you couldn't post then just e-mail directly.
Edited to include some spelling mistakes.
[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: NOODY ]
[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: NOODY ]
Excellent banter old boy.
9 years in the RAF, 6 sitting in Tornado's hoping they wouldn't go bang matey. Absolutley delighted and thank my God on a regular basis i was lucky enough not to have to get into hock for £60k to get my job. Silver spoon? Yeah my life is great, thanks for asking.
Yes my spelling is crap, do i care...eh no.
My point for the last time.
1. If you never leave the RJ then you will not be disadvantaged. If you want to cross over to mainline and get a mainline command or a long haul rhs then you join the queue with everybody else. When your freeze is up you will just have to cope with the fact that you will be well down the list, like me, and that your options will be limited. Bad news for us both is that our hours in 4 years time will be irrelevant referance command, outwith your command at CFE, because our seniority will not get us one (other than on the rj for yourself).
2. I really don't care how you got your ATPL. RAF, BA Cadet, Self Improver, it don't matter. The only time i ever get upset is when i have to listnen to the anti-cadet crap and it's always from guys like you who did it the hard way and seem to hate anyone who was lucky enough to get the MOD or an Airline to pay for it.
3. Dan Air..yes many, if not most of them were shafted. Yes they have my smypathy. I don't see how my post insinuated i looked down on them or consider myself above them.
Many of the guy's who converted me onto the 737 where Ex Dan and it was some of the best training i ever recieved. Considerably better than much of my training in the RAF. I work with them all the time and the vast majority of them, all off them Capts obviously, are Magic. My piont was that it is the worst 5 day trip imaginable to be beside someone who does nothing but slag off the company they work for and harp on about how good Dan was and how crap BA is. There are not many but the truth is that there are a small and famous group who will not let it go. My apologies to the rest if i have upset them.
4. I don't consider myself above anyone mate. You seem to spend a lot of time pontificating about cadets, mainline, BAR, in fact anyone who is not ex CFE.
5. It happened. Get over it.
CFE or EOG routes, who cares! Same company, pay comes from the same account. I fly wherever i'm told and couldn't give a toss who used to do it.
Please feel free to not integrate yourself into the company with the rest of us. I'm sure having you sitting in the coffee bar reminiscing about being underpaid and taking your own lunch on trips with you will give us all a good laugh.
I hope we have not misunderstood each other. You seem to have some pretty stong opinions about Cadets on both their professional and personnel qualities. I think you don't have a clue what your on about.
If you want to get abusive or just enlighten on the Cadet qualities that you couldn't post then just e-mail directly.
Edited to include some spelling mistakes.
[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: NOODY ]
[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: NOODY ]
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remember we are all employed as 'pilots' so the panel beater/painter argument doesnt work. BA lost legal action few years ago (president now set in court of law) so seniority rules. when it comes to the crunch, 99% BA (true plantinum) guys will pool together as a collective group to protect themselves, ie a 5 year service BA pilot (platinum) pilot will not allow a 5 year 1 day CFE pilot stay over him (and BALPA will back this by vote) VS has announced (albeit at a cost loss) that redundancy will be on seniority and rightly so.
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WWII ACE.
Don't fiddle your figures. Everyone at CFE is on an engagement freeze, so there is no way anyone at CFE is going to displace anybody.
So we are not talking about about 5 year 1 day CFE pilots displacing 5 year BA pilots. We are talking about 6 month BA pilots displacing multiyear CFE pilots.
I also note that you have not deigned to answer my query about your length of service. Thus I can only infer that it is short. Again, feel free to enlighten me.
CPB
<edited for brain failure>
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Capt Pit Bull ]
Don't fiddle your figures. Everyone at CFE is on an engagement freeze, so there is no way anyone at CFE is going to displace anybody.
So we are not talking about about 5 year 1 day CFE pilots displacing 5 year BA pilots. We are talking about 6 month BA pilots displacing multiyear CFE pilots.
I also note that you have not deigned to answer my query about your length of service. Thus I can only infer that it is short. Again, feel free to enlighten me.
CPB
<edited for brain failure>
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Capt Pit Bull ]
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Wow NOODY what an ace you are can I have your autograph for my children? Please Pleeeaaaase tell us more stories about your amazing life they are so exciting that maybe we could get someone to write a book about you?
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Noddy, you old wind bag. Glad you cleared that one up about the Dan Dare guys.
No, I have absolutely no wish to prevaricate on my likes or dislikes of cadets. I, like most of the human race (some might argue at length on whether I actually belong, but that's another story) have prejudices based on all sorts of experiences, personal and by proxy. At times like these when it becomes a case of us and them (or more to the point, us OR them) then these prejudices come to light. Also I have to concur, as ever, with Cpt Pitbull when he says that it's not a case of 5yr 1 day CFE against 5yr BA pilot so much as 6 month BA pilots displacing multiyear Pilots full stop.
Anyway, I may live to change my views on cadets depending on how clean my shoes are in the morning after a nice stop.
Incidentally, I did my command simulator sessions with an ex Tornado failed fast jet pilot turned navigator, and I must say that a better FO I couldn't wish to have had. Very switched on and not once did he try to score a single point against me for his own benefit. See, I like you already, Noddy!
Rythm Method
Ahhh, not a cadet but act like one. Nice quips about the posts etc. I'm mortified! No, really did you think my post too.... childish? Little Boy!!!Oh no, Mummyyyyy, RM's calling me names! Yawn! It's awfully nice to hide behind anonimity and throw insults isn't it. And you call ME immature!; pot to kettle, over!
WWII
Which precedent would that be then? Enlighten the unenlightened and if you can, tell us all how it bears any relation to our sticky situation. As for Virgin, I think you'll find that they have no case for any other method as DOJ = SENIORITY and so would seem to be in keeping with T.U.P.E. regulations anyway. On another note, however (and I stress that I hope I am wrong), it seems to me to be that Balpa have little regard for the extra training expenses which will be incurred as result of this decision at a delicate time. It appears to be a case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face to the possible eventual detriment of the whole airline.
Personally though, I don't share your optimism for the rally call; as I said, if it happens to us then we are the ones with nothing to lose. If all of CFE get their marching orders, or even half, then we may as well stop work straight away. That'll wake you all up a bit, won't it? 90 flights a day just stop and 16 aircraft parked up with no-one to fly them. Expensive!
No, I have absolutely no wish to prevaricate on my likes or dislikes of cadets. I, like most of the human race (some might argue at length on whether I actually belong, but that's another story) have prejudices based on all sorts of experiences, personal and by proxy. At times like these when it becomes a case of us and them (or more to the point, us OR them) then these prejudices come to light. Also I have to concur, as ever, with Cpt Pitbull when he says that it's not a case of 5yr 1 day CFE against 5yr BA pilot so much as 6 month BA pilots displacing multiyear Pilots full stop.
Anyway, I may live to change my views on cadets depending on how clean my shoes are in the morning after a nice stop.
Incidentally, I did my command simulator sessions with an ex Tornado failed fast jet pilot turned navigator, and I must say that a better FO I couldn't wish to have had. Very switched on and not once did he try to score a single point against me for his own benefit. See, I like you already, Noddy!
Rythm Method
Ahhh, not a cadet but act like one. Nice quips about the posts etc. I'm mortified! No, really did you think my post too.... childish? Little Boy!!!Oh no, Mummyyyyy, RM's calling me names! Yawn! It's awfully nice to hide behind anonimity and throw insults isn't it. And you call ME immature!; pot to kettle, over!
WWII
Which precedent would that be then? Enlighten the unenlightened and if you can, tell us all how it bears any relation to our sticky situation. As for Virgin, I think you'll find that they have no case for any other method as DOJ = SENIORITY and so would seem to be in keeping with T.U.P.E. regulations anyway. On another note, however (and I stress that I hope I am wrong), it seems to me to be that Balpa have little regard for the extra training expenses which will be incurred as result of this decision at a delicate time. It appears to be a case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face to the possible eventual detriment of the whole airline.
Personally though, I don't share your optimism for the rally call; as I said, if it happens to us then we are the ones with nothing to lose. If all of CFE get their marching orders, or even half, then we may as well stop work straight away. That'll wake you all up a bit, won't it? 90 flights a day just stop and 16 aircraft parked up with no-one to fly them. Expensive!
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SS, WW2waste does not ,I hope represent the "typical BA pilot" he/she is ill informed & ill educated on almost every issue he/she care to comment. I think he /she resides in a fairy tail world hopelessly trying to convince himself that if its written on PPRUNE enough times then...... it must be true.
PS Noddy I just love the famous 5, if you tell it how it is to them ,then they normally settle down!
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: CRP5 ]
PS Noddy I just love the famous 5, if you tell it how it is to them ,then they normally settle down!
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: CRP5 ]
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Secret Squirrel, obviously the stress of the last few weeks is getting to you a little. I suggest you cool your boots a bit. You write with such vindictiveness and an obvious chip on your shoulder about CEP's. Take a reality Check.
When you come to Jub house you'll meet lots of CEP's. BA chooses to sponsor people through training because they have talent - and have the qualities they deem necessary in a person who will make a good 'Captain of the Future'. Not all CEP's are 19 yr-old 'silver-spoon' types. Sure, there are a few, and , yes you may not get on with someone of that age or of lesser life experience than you claim to have yourself...
Many CEP's come from other professions, with a broader age range than you might think. At Jub House you will come across people who were in their previous lives, Rocket Propulsion Engineers, Architects, Medics & Lawyers etc etc..all highly competent and professional people, team-players every one of them.
They choose to change careers, and yes, BA pay up front for their training, - but they pay back more or less all of that in terms of reduced salaries compared to DEP's and the 3 grand per annum that comes directly out of those reduced salaries in the first 5 yrs. You don't seriously think the company would employ CEP's if they cost more.
As for your Seniority gripe with the "whingeing cadets"?...well CEP's commit to the company with the signature of a training agreement, up to two years before starting on the line, with no firm offer of a job at the end of it, yet are bonded to repay the costs of training if they wish to get out of their own accord within the first 5 years. That's quite a commitment, and deserving of some consideration, which I think the company and Balpa rightly gave them.
You will be doing yourself few favours amongst those already established in Jub House if you carry on the way you do....
(edited for grammar!)
[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Bumblebee ]
When you come to Jub house you'll meet lots of CEP's. BA chooses to sponsor people through training because they have talent - and have the qualities they deem necessary in a person who will make a good 'Captain of the Future'. Not all CEP's are 19 yr-old 'silver-spoon' types. Sure, there are a few, and , yes you may not get on with someone of that age or of lesser life experience than you claim to have yourself...
Many CEP's come from other professions, with a broader age range than you might think. At Jub House you will come across people who were in their previous lives, Rocket Propulsion Engineers, Architects, Medics & Lawyers etc etc..all highly competent and professional people, team-players every one of them.
They choose to change careers, and yes, BA pay up front for their training, - but they pay back more or less all of that in terms of reduced salaries compared to DEP's and the 3 grand per annum that comes directly out of those reduced salaries in the first 5 yrs. You don't seriously think the company would employ CEP's if they cost more.
As for your Seniority gripe with the "whingeing cadets"?...well CEP's commit to the company with the signature of a training agreement, up to two years before starting on the line, with no firm offer of a job at the end of it, yet are bonded to repay the costs of training if they wish to get out of their own accord within the first 5 years. That's quite a commitment, and deserving of some consideration, which I think the company and Balpa rightly gave them.
You will be doing yourself few favours amongst those already established in Jub House if you carry on the way you do....
(edited for grammar!)
[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Bumblebee ]
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SS.
Don't get many "NICE STOPS" any more!
At the end of the day we can only hope that if the time comes and some of us are getting the shove then it is done in accordance within the constraints of UK and European employment law. I'm not a lawyer ( although in my forthcoming book i describe my 2 years at law school befor my secret missions in the Amazon...Das Pferd you'll love it) but Balpa pays for one to protect the rights of the group as a whole, well that is the theory...right?
I think you will find that the new CEP's just like the new DEP's and recent CFE entrants will all be in the same position regardless of jet or entry method. As far as I understand the law means we will live or die by our DOJ. Seems fair enough to me.
Best banter yet though rj v 777 "after the company twin jet!".....love it.
Enjoy
Don't get many "NICE STOPS" any more!
At the end of the day we can only hope that if the time comes and some of us are getting the shove then it is done in accordance within the constraints of UK and European employment law. I'm not a lawyer ( although in my forthcoming book i describe my 2 years at law school befor my secret missions in the Amazon...Das Pferd you'll love it) but Balpa pays for one to protect the rights of the group as a whole, well that is the theory...right?
I think you will find that the new CEP's just like the new DEP's and recent CFE entrants will all be in the same position regardless of jet or entry method. As far as I understand the law means we will live or die by our DOJ. Seems fair enough to me.
Best banter yet though rj v 777 "after the company twin jet!".....love it.
Enjoy
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WW2ACE,
Maybe I've partially misjudged you.With that length of service then this issue clearly doesn't affect you one way or the other.
But in a way that leaves me more concerned. At least if you'd been a recent joiner then your attitude to those of us at CFE could at least have been understood on the grounds of self interest.
Whereas it is becoming clear to me now that this 'snuck in through the back door' claim is going to be whipped out of the closet, and played against myself and my fellow CFE pilots, throughout the rest of my career should I choose to stay at BA.
Well, you've made it clear that you feel we should be thrown to wolves should it be necessary. I did warn, in an earlier post, that sooner or later the reciprocal attitude was likely to rub of on me.
Consider it rubbed.
CPB
Maybe I've partially misjudged you.With that length of service then this issue clearly doesn't affect you one way or the other.
But in a way that leaves me more concerned. At least if you'd been a recent joiner then your attitude to those of us at CFE could at least have been understood on the grounds of self interest.
Whereas it is becoming clear to me now that this 'snuck in through the back door' claim is going to be whipped out of the closet, and played against myself and my fellow CFE pilots, throughout the rest of my career should I choose to stay at BA.
Well, you've made it clear that you feel we should be thrown to wolves should it be necessary. I did warn, in an earlier post, that sooner or later the reciprocal attitude was likely to rub of on me.
Consider it rubbed.
CPB
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Awww! Exeng, but this is so much fun!
Touche with the 'nice stops' Noddy!
Bumblebee
I appreciate your concern but I am not anonymous and it is my nature to speak my mind at times. I'm sure there are nice cadets just as there are asshole self sponsored guys, and by that I don't mean that the proportion is the same. I know not all cadets are the same and after my litlle bun fight with Noddy, I realise that maybe he has it in his blood. As you know not all of them do. I'm not going to bore you with the same old sing-song about the gamble I took and how I slogged my guts out to get where I was; you've heard it all before but nonetheless I feel it deeply. So, If you think I'm being vindictive or visceral about this then I'm sorry, maybe it's my latin blood. Ask anyone that knows me, I am not an anal guy either in the crew room or in the flight deck, but certain things get my back up. I have the advantage that I can hold my head up high when I criticise because It is common knowledge who I am to those who wish to do a little digging. Certainly at CFE everyone knows who I am and most of the UK ATC do now as well.
Anyway, I've enjoyed my bun fight and may there be many more. Also, may we all keep our jobs.
Touche with the 'nice stops' Noddy!
Bumblebee
I appreciate your concern but I am not anonymous and it is my nature to speak my mind at times. I'm sure there are nice cadets just as there are asshole self sponsored guys, and by that I don't mean that the proportion is the same. I know not all cadets are the same and after my litlle bun fight with Noddy, I realise that maybe he has it in his blood. As you know not all of them do. I'm not going to bore you with the same old sing-song about the gamble I took and how I slogged my guts out to get where I was; you've heard it all before but nonetheless I feel it deeply. So, If you think I'm being vindictive or visceral about this then I'm sorry, maybe it's my latin blood. Ask anyone that knows me, I am not an anal guy either in the crew room or in the flight deck, but certain things get my back up. I have the advantage that I can hold my head up high when I criticise because It is common knowledge who I am to those who wish to do a little digging. Certainly at CFE everyone knows who I am and most of the UK ATC do now as well.
Anyway, I've enjoyed my bun fight and may there be many more. Also, may we all keep our jobs.
