BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
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As a Balpa member I fully support the action the BACC is about to take.
However at present I believe WW has a number of other problems to overcome.
1/ The 757 is not really suitable, why would you spend 500k on wingtip mods on a low cost outfit, if the 3% range improvements were not necessary.?
2/ The US authorities have already said BA can not use JFK only EWR.
3/ BRU has already been ruled out as not having enough premium traffic.
4/ Paris ORL has already been ruled out by the French so it has to be CDG. ie head to head with Air France
5/ That means that FRA & Milan are next in line, with the range problem mentioned in 1/ a bigger problem.
6/ Low cost this project certainly is not, BA have at least 35 senior staff working in Waterside as I speak.
With pilots about to strike is it really worth the candle,?
I believe BA is also in mortal danger from having too many eggs in one basket, ie a huge proportion of their operation into New York. With all the top US/UK bankers about to retrench, it is questionable whether they will fill the seats they are already offering.
However at present I believe WW has a number of other problems to overcome.
1/ The 757 is not really suitable, why would you spend 500k on wingtip mods on a low cost outfit, if the 3% range improvements were not necessary.?
2/ The US authorities have already said BA can not use JFK only EWR.
3/ BRU has already been ruled out as not having enough premium traffic.
4/ Paris ORL has already been ruled out by the French so it has to be CDG. ie head to head with Air France
5/ That means that FRA & Milan are next in line, with the range problem mentioned in 1/ a bigger problem.
6/ Low cost this project certainly is not, BA have at least 35 senior staff working in Waterside as I speak.
With pilots about to strike is it really worth the candle,?
I believe BA is also in mortal danger from having too many eggs in one basket, ie a huge proportion of their operation into New York. With all the top US/UK bankers about to retrench, it is questionable whether they will fill the seats they are already offering.
For the benefit of those pilots wishing to joing OpenSkies without common seniority, may I take the opportunity to warn you of the general incompetence of the average BA manager. If this does go ahead and end up being sold off/shut down/going bust in a couple of years ( a search of GO/Citiflyer/CitiExpress/BA Regional threads will give you an idea), then you will be jettisoned without a backward glance. Ask the ex Dan Air pilots how much redundancy they got from BA.
And the members of your self declared "leadership team" will simply pull the ripcords on their golden parachutes and float gently back down into the mother ship with hardly a ruffled feaher. 
Only do it if you can be absolutely sure that the whole managment team are leaving BA for good, are taking exactly the same risk and are on exactly the same redundancy package as everyone else. If not, avoid it at all costs. One of the Directors of this new venture probably holds more responsibility than anyone else for the whole BA Connect fiasco.
If they tell you that they are 100% comitted to this new venture, check, check again, get it in writing and always work on the assumption that you are being told a load of porkies.
You will be.
Only do it if you can be absolutely sure that the whole managment team are leaving BA for good, are taking exactly the same risk and are on exactly the same redundancy package as everyone else. If not, avoid it at all costs. One of the Directors of this new venture probably holds more responsibility than anyone else for the whole BA Connect fiasco.
If they tell you that they are 100% comitted to this new venture, check, check again, get it in writing and always work on the assumption that you are being told a load of porkies.
You will be.
Last edited by biddedout; 16th Jan 2008 at 08:45.
Controversial, moi?
OpenSkies should be a stand alone airline without the baggage (pardon the pun) of BA mainline working practices and management.
I do not know the full history of the Qantas /Jetstar scenario and I have not heard of any threatening noises from Qantas pilots. If I am wrong about this please enlighten me.
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So Human Factor "you are not expecting public support so going on strike is not an issue!" Tell that to the thousands of passengers you and the other members of BALPA are going to inconvenience by taking strike action which you seem hell bent on doing. Those passengers pay your wages . Life is tough in the airline business as you know so do not weaken the good that you and others have done in the past couple of years to get BA back up on it's feet.
I think Riverboat and 757 Flyer have put across some good points and perhaps it would be in keeping with your professionalism as a BA pilot if you accept that we all have opinions and not everybody necessarily agrees with you.
OpenSkies should be a stand alone airline without the baggage (pardon the pun) of BA mainline working practices and management.
I do not know the full history of the Qantas /Jetstar scenario and I have not heard of any threatening noises from Qantas pilots. If I am wrong about this please enlighten me
Regards
ID
(Darn, beaten by MMouse!)
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I work for charter in the U.K., yet fully support you guys. Who wouldn't in all honesty want to defend their T&C's. All you have to do is see what happened in Oz, to work out what will happen.
As for the children out there who suggest.....you have so much already, I want to have a go (read with a childs whining voice).....GROW UP.
As for an earlier post suggesting that we should all support you guys because you have industry leading T&C's, and any erosion of your T&C's will filter down through other airlines. I don't see it myself. We do not use BA as a bench mark (oh how I would like to).
As for the children out there who suggest.....you have so much already, I want to have a go (read with a childs whining voice).....GROW UP.
As for an earlier post suggesting that we should all support you guys because you have industry leading T&C's, and any erosion of your T&C's will filter down through other airlines. I don't see it myself. We do not use BA as a bench mark (oh how I would like to).
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Riverboat,
In the 80's American Airlines asked APA (AA pilot union) to allow it to begin flying a couple of 19 seat prop jobs under a different banner (American Eagle).
Unfortunately, we were not focused on the future and allowed AA to begin what has become a nemesis.
Today, American Eagle flies over 300 jets and has drawn appx $4bn investment from the core airline. AA has parked close to 200 mainline jets in the past few years but not one Eagle jet.
No one would argue that with 20/20 hindsight the very least we should have done is ensured the original pilots were on the AA seniority list.
I know the Qantas pilots have learned an important lesson with Jetstar.
Very encouraging to see that most pilots at BALPA understand too.
Help from across the pond is on the way.
dd
In the 80's American Airlines asked APA (AA pilot union) to allow it to begin flying a couple of 19 seat prop jobs under a different banner (American Eagle).
Unfortunately, we were not focused on the future and allowed AA to begin what has become a nemesis.
Today, American Eagle flies over 300 jets and has drawn appx $4bn investment from the core airline. AA has parked close to 200 mainline jets in the past few years but not one Eagle jet.
No one would argue that with 20/20 hindsight the very least we should have done is ensured the original pilots were on the AA seniority list.
I know the Qantas pilots have learned an important lesson with Jetstar.
Very encouraging to see that most pilots at BALPA understand too.
Help from across the pond is on the way.
dd
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CHINOOKER in reply to your VP- post...
VP- is a prefix for an aircraft registred off-shore...
VP-B.. B is for Bermuda
VP-C.. C is for Cayman Islands
Either way, it is a cheaper option and one which gets round lots of CAA stuff!
VP- is a prefix for an aircraft registred off-shore...
VP-B.. B is for Bermuda
VP-C.. C is for Cayman Islands
Either way, it is a cheaper option and one which gets round lots of CAA stuff!
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Had the opportunity to chat briefly with a BA 747 skipper in BLR...looks like a fight is brewing...welcome to the USA style pilot group whipsawing...
Tell you what Dallas Dude..I was flying for one of those carriers then...when we attempted to approach APA to get included into your pilot group, thus negating managements efforts to undermine your careers, and use us against you..( we couldnt even get jumpseats then...those of us in the "turboprop ghetto" couldnt possibly be real pilots right?) we were rebuffed and treated like last week's garbage...so dont blame your management, look at your own union's short sightness..no wonder 50% of my company scabbed when Continental struck...not me mind you...you wanted our support, but weren't willing to provide us with yours...not a personal attack...just stating the facts...none of the "real AA pilots" were interested in any kind of flow thru, until it became apparent they might need a "flow back"...you reap what you sow...enjoy...you brought it upon yourselves!!!!
Tell you what Dallas Dude..I was flying for one of those carriers then...when we attempted to approach APA to get included into your pilot group, thus negating managements efforts to undermine your careers, and use us against you..( we couldnt even get jumpseats then...those of us in the "turboprop ghetto" couldnt possibly be real pilots right?) we were rebuffed and treated like last week's garbage...so dont blame your management, look at your own union's short sightness..no wonder 50% of my company scabbed when Continental struck...not me mind you...you wanted our support, but weren't willing to provide us with yours...not a personal attack...just stating the facts...none of the "real AA pilots" were interested in any kind of flow thru, until it became apparent they might need a "flow back"...you reap what you sow...enjoy...you brought it upon yourselves!!!!
Last edited by ironbutt57; 16th Jan 2008 at 20:35.
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They are proposing to use what was the Flying Colours AOC (owned by BA) so the aircaft will be G regs. Also, the line maintenance will be carried out by existing BA engineers at BA line stations. The A Checks to be done at BRU as previously posted by somebody else.
757 with winglets being used because it is the correct sized aircraft for the business model they have come up with and the hulls can be made available. Yes, range is a problem though, hence the winglets.
Some of the posts above go on about BA using Open Skies to expand their business at the expense of LHR and therefore limit opportunities for mainline. What expansion possibilities are they at LHR? It is at capacity, that's why it is one of the worst airports in the world to travel through and work at. Every business needs to keep on expanding to survive so why not expand in Europe? Good idea as far as I'm concerned. Is it going to be a sustainable business - jury's out for me but my gut feel doesn't think so.
Creation of an operation in Europe going to destroy the T&Cs of all pilots in the UK? Hmmmm, tenuous reasoning IMHO.
757 with winglets being used because it is the correct sized aircraft for the business model they have come up with and the hulls can be made available. Yes, range is a problem though, hence the winglets.
Some of the posts above go on about BA using Open Skies to expand their business at the expense of LHR and therefore limit opportunities for mainline. What expansion possibilities are they at LHR? It is at capacity, that's why it is one of the worst airports in the world to travel through and work at. Every business needs to keep on expanding to survive so why not expand in Europe? Good idea as far as I'm concerned. Is it going to be a sustainable business - jury's out for me but my gut feel doesn't think so.
Creation of an operation in Europe going to destroy the T&Cs of all pilots in the UK? Hmmmm, tenuous reasoning IMHO.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Some of the posts above go on about BA using Open Skies to expand their business at the expense of LHR and therefore limit opportunities for mainline. What expansion possibilities are they at LHR?
None of the BA pilots want to prevent BA from expanding their business. Far from it in fact, we want to be fully involved - just like the Lufthansa pilots are with their subsidiary operations. What we want to ensure is that this expansion doesn't happen at the expense of BA pilots.
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Never as the arrogance of so few, brought so much anger from so many as our present management.
No matter were you work in BA we're still managed by the same idiots.
WTDWL.
No matter were you work in BA we're still managed by the same idiots.
WTDWL.
Last edited by whattimedoweland; 17th Jan 2008 at 09:59.
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ironbutt
Wind your neck in son I was being critical of my fellow AA pilots [and portraying our mistake], no one else. Certainly wasn't Eagle pilots' fault at the time.
I'm glad it seems to have worked out for you.
A multitude of lessons to be learned from past failures rather than continually re-inventing the wheel.
dd
Wind your neck in son I was being critical of my fellow AA pilots [and portraying our mistake], no one else. Certainly wasn't Eagle pilots' fault at the time.
I'm glad it seems to have worked out for you.
A multitude of lessons to be learned from past failures rather than continually re-inventing the wheel.
dd
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I cannot believe that we may be facing IA just as we move into our new home - unbelievable timing! I've been with the company for a relatively short time - in that period, the pilots/BALPA have been nothing other than cooperative with management's proposed changes, the most recent being work-coverage. BA is a great company but it has SERIOUS PROBLEMS (largely created by weak management......... ) Flight Crew professionalism, loyalty and motivation are not among them. Yet we have a management willing to pick an unwinnable fight with one of the most on side working groups within the company.......it beggars belief it really does. The BACC has some great intellects on board and I have every confidence in their abilty to see the wood for the trees - i.e the Company's End game. The company are deluded if they think we are unaware of the parallels with Qantas/Jetstar and the threat posed by OS. It's all very depressing.............
Last edited by sidtheesexist; 19th Jan 2008 at 15:24.
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Good luck to all you "Boys and Girls" that sit at the front end with regard to this fight....I only wish my own union in Engineering was as strong as you are!....Over the past few years,(since 9-11 ),our own T&Cs have been eroded/steam-rollered over on many occasions,all in the name of "progress/cost efficiency etc etc.......Only recently have BA management, in some respects,"woken up" to the fact that a demoralised workforce is not good for business.....In our case many of the younger engineers BA spent thousands of £££ training,have simply "jumped ship",to persue other careers,which has basically left our area with a workforce consisting of a few guys in thier mid 40s and a whole lot of techs who are probably nearer to putting "one foot in the grave",than picking up a 787 licence!!.
Shortsightedness,coupled with KPIs/Bonuses is a BA management trait at the present time and it just may be that a bust up between BAs pilots and Wee Willie may bring them back down to earth!,(although reading on the CC forum about the outcome of thier previous dispute),probably not!!
With regard to the future of "Open Skies",several posts on here have alluded to the fact that BA may purchase 787s,(once Boeing have learned how to glue them together properly),for this venture?.....Forgive me if i am wrong,but won't BA be starting to offload the 767 fleet at around the same time......Nearly all of them are ETOPS rated...Have a 3 class configuration complete with Avod....all that would be needed would be a lick of paint on the outside and "hey presto" Open Skies" doubles in capacity!!
Looking on the bright side....If you guys and gals do actually have a bust up for a few days,at least the ADD count should have reduced by the time you all return,spares permitting!!
Good Luck to one and all
Shortsightedness,coupled with KPIs/Bonuses is a BA management trait at the present time and it just may be that a bust up between BAs pilots and Wee Willie may bring them back down to earth!,(although reading on the CC forum about the outcome of thier previous dispute),probably not!!
With regard to the future of "Open Skies",several posts on here have alluded to the fact that BA may purchase 787s,(once Boeing have learned how to glue them together properly),for this venture?.....Forgive me if i am wrong,but won't BA be starting to offload the 767 fleet at around the same time......Nearly all of them are ETOPS rated...Have a 3 class configuration complete with Avod....all that would be needed would be a lick of paint on the outside and "hey presto" Open Skies" doubles in capacity!!
Looking on the bright side....If you guys and gals do actually have a bust up for a few days,at least the ADD count should have reduced by the time you all return,spares permitting!!
Good Luck to one and all
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M.Mouse & idol detent thanks for filling in some of the gaps so I can see "the wood for the trees". If as you say you are happy for OpenSkies to be stand alone apart from a common seniority then I support the cause.
I do not see BA allowing OpenSkies to encroach upon their main core of business from LHR. It will hopefully bolster the bottom line of the group by operating on routes not covered by BA mainline but by US and Mainland European carriers and that ALL BA staff enjoy the upside.
I wish you well in trying to get your management around a table to sort this out and hopefully you can look back in 5 years time and say that BA was right in setting OpenSkies up. I am still of the view that the only way OpenSkies will succeed is to have management who are able to work outside the current framework of BA along side supportive BA Crews and Engineers. Good Luck!
I do not see BA allowing OpenSkies to encroach upon their main core of business from LHR. It will hopefully bolster the bottom line of the group by operating on routes not covered by BA mainline but by US and Mainland European carriers and that ALL BA staff enjoy the upside.
I wish you well in trying to get your management around a table to sort this out and hopefully you can look back in 5 years time and say that BA was right in setting OpenSkies up. I am still of the view that the only way OpenSkies will succeed is to have management who are able to work outside the current framework of BA along side supportive BA Crews and Engineers. Good Luck!
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Chinooker - thanks for the engineers' perspective - very insightful! I've been under the impression for sometime now, that you boys n girls in engineering are understaffed/overworked - I think you've confirmed that fear.....It's so ironic that the very areas/working groups which are over-resourced/low in productivity continue along in their inefficient/incompetent ways whereas areas like flt ops and engineering continue to be squeezed..........Talk about getting your priorities wrong........
The member, forgive me, but you are wrong. Lets talk about a pax who wants to fly JFK to CDG with BA. Currently they fly LH to LHR and then xfer to SH for the hop across the channel! OS flying same pax direct would therefore most definitely be 'encroaching' onto BA's 'territory'....................
The member, forgive me, but you are wrong. Lets talk about a pax who wants to fly JFK to CDG with BA. Currently they fly LH to LHR and then xfer to SH for the hop across the channel! OS flying same pax direct would therefore most definitely be 'encroaching' onto BA's 'territory'....................
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Apparently, there are guys currently being offered positions in this Mickey Mouse outfit.
Be warned:
If you accept this offer, you will deserve whatever comes your way. there WILL be casualties!
I will do EVERYTHING in my power to ensure it is YOU and not me that suffers.
Until this is resolved, you are very unwelcome!
Take my advice. Think very, very carefully before accepting.
Be warned:
If you accept this offer, you will deserve whatever comes your way. there WILL be casualties!
I will do EVERYTHING in my power to ensure it is YOU and not me that suffers.
Until this is resolved, you are very unwelcome!
Take my advice. Think very, very carefully before accepting.