BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies

[Openlies]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkZsPjQp3CM

[Terminal 5]

Whether or not OS is postponed is up to BA. However it would not stop a strike from going ahead. The strike is about Schedule K (Scope), not specifically Open Skies.

Before this thread kicked off I was always under the impression that the dispute was purely about Openskies. I am sure many other people believe that as well.

So if BA postponed Openskies and then BALPA still went ahead with the strike anyway over schd K wouldn't this give BA the upper hand as they could say they are not threatening T & C's by postponing Openskies but BALPA are striking anyway? A PR coup for BA there?!?!?

[M.Mouse]

Do I understand this quote from M.Mouse correctly? A current BA Pilot opting for Open skies would be effectively giving up their current contract for a new one?

To further clarify what I meant I was referring to the achieved goal of a common seniority list meaning a BA mainline pilot could bid into OpenLies but he would be on OpenLies Ts & Cs. Someone might, for example, wish to live in Europe and operate from a European airport.

As NoD says a move could mean an improvement in money for a co-pilot changing seats with that move but losing the advantages of Bidline, etc.

So if BA postponed Openskies and then BALPA still went ahead with the strike anyway over schd K wouldn't this give BA the upper hand as they could say they are not threatening T & C's by postponing Openskies but BALPA are striking anyway? A PR coup for BA there?!?!?

WW is convinced that the pilots will not strike. His aim is to break the seniority system, BALPA and the pilot's strength along with it. He is so convinced I do not believe he will relinquish the opportunity this fight affords him.

[pacamack]

Excuse my ignorance, but I can't understand how any business is able to operate a "Seniority List" in this day and age?

Other businesses/sectors/industries realised long ago that ability often has little to do with seniority. You try specifying X years experience as a requirement on a public sector job description for example.

I would much sooner be flown to my destination by a good pilot than an old pilot.

[NigelOnDraft]

pacamack

I would much sooner be flown to my destination by a good pilot than an old pilot.

Firstly, seniority irrespective, anyone in either seat has to pass the appropriate courses etc. - and not all do

Would you rather your pilots use seniority, which in some ways equates to experience (but not all ) to govern who gets commands? Or by who takes the least fuel? Accepts the most defects? Exceeds the max duty hours by the largest amount? Who puts cost savings over safety? These might be the sort of criteria Management use to select their Captains in a non-Seniority structure

[overstress]

pacamack - welcome to the forum - this thread may not be for you if you don't understand how seniority is allowed, the whole seniority question is probably not one for this thread IMHO

[pacamack]

Nigel, I accept your first point but I would still argue that the greater proportion of businesses, organisations etc. out there have managed to implement non-seniority based career progression without the world coming down around their ears?

Overstress, surely it is at the core of the whole argument?

[Ray D'Avecta]

Having now understood the proposal for pilots bidding from mainline to OS, what is the reciprocal proposal if the OS pilots end up on one combined seniority list. Would they, upon succesfully bidding for mainline, be automatically transferred onto the better T&C's and a salary grade that takes into account their years in OS?

(I apologise if I am only looking at this from a pilots point of view. I'm sure there is a bigger picture )

[Airbus Unplugged]

Consultant paediatrician? More brass? Neh, I'd rather have our Lucy cut up by our butcher than waste good brass on experienced medicos.

Our Laithwaite's been cutting meat for two months now and I'd trust 'im with any of our pigs - and that's saying somut.

[Human Factor]

Having now understood the proposal for pilots bidding from mainline to OS, what is the reciprocal proposal if the OS pilots end up on one combined seniority list. Would they, upon succesfully bidding for mainline, be automatically transferred onto the better T&C's and a salary grade that takes into account their years in OS?

Yes. The fine details would probably require a bit of negotiation with BA. Primarily, would the OS pilot join the BA payscale at paypoint 1 or a higher paypoint based on their years of service with OS? My preference would be the latter.

[blimey]

pacamack

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ight=seniority

On yer way. Nothing for you here.

blimey

[M.Mouse]

Nigel, I accept your first point but I would still argue that the greater proportion of businesses, organisations etc. out there have managed to implement non-seniority based career progression without the world coming down around their ears?

You accept NoD's first point but what about the more important second paragraph of his post?

To give you an idea of what the current system prevents. There was a manager, very, very senior and, not to put too fine a point on it, he was an unpeasant individual (since resigned over a particularly nasty event).

I know for a fact that he and another senior manager used to have a competition running between each other regarding how LITTLE fuel they could each carry over a given period. It was a nightmare to fly with either of them because they would use every legal trick in the book to reduce fuel to an absolute minimum.

Now imagine if I am a first officer with sufficient experience to gain a command. Imagine that manager is the arbiter of who is suitable. Would his judgement be based on my overall suitability or would someone who carried less fuel on average than I did win the day? If the winner was the person who used less fuel then would it not be beyond the realms of possibility that first officers nearing the level of experience necessary for command would endeavour to impress by reducing their comfort margins by carrying less fuel?

Simplified example but the seniority system does put the promotion to command firmly beyond factors and personalities which could have a detrimental effect on safety.

[bluepilot]

much as i am an advocate of the seniority system, i beg to disagree. If a manager (pilot) decides you are unfit for command your number might be up seniority wise but they can still make life very difficult for you to get that LHS.

anyway this is a move away from the point, openskys is a threat to the BA pilot force.........and agreed could effect future t and c, but the deal openskys offer most non BA pilots is quite attractive and some of those applicants may be BALPA members...difficult decision for those guys... personally i have seen in recent time just how "non" supportive BALPA can be to non BA members, its about time BALPA looked in its own back yard and realised that the MEMBERS pay their salary (yes thats you mr JM!). (just how much have the members benefited from the multi million sale of the site at new road?).

now before all you BA guys jump down my throat and tell me how much "we" need to fight this ... i agree we do!! but BALPA as a UNION (dont give me the association crap) ((OR TRY TO SELL ME MORE FINANCIAL SERVICES!!))) needs to support not just you guys but the minority as well.....and recently the support from the top (mr JM) has not been that good.

one of the BA members pointed out on here that we should support this action because BA lead the t and c every other BALPA member aspires too. What you guys need to realise is that sometimes for VERY GOOD REASONS some of us work for other companies and do not or cannot work for BA, BUT we may call upon your support on issues that may seem small to you!! BA is not the be all and end all.

rant over

good luck to all at BA. despite my seemingly anti post you really do have my utmost support.

[Hand Solo]

Originally Posted by bluepilot

much as i am an advocate of the seniority system, i beg to disagree. If a manager (pilot) decides you are unfit for command your number might be up seniority wise but they can still make life very difficult for you to get that LHS.

I agree, but imagine how much fun it's going to be at Open Skies with a 'meritocratic' promotion system.

but the deal openskys offer most non BA pilots is quite attractive and some of those applicants may be BALPA members...difficult decision for those guys

Well I'd take issue with the attractiveness of the offer. The money might be OKish for captains but it's pretty poor for FOs and the proposed schedules are horrendously debilitating. Flying 900hrs per year on two crew transatlantic flights is not a job anyone will tolerate for more than 2-3 years. Even if people do find the prospect of that attractive, they have nothing to lose from the BA dispute. If the BA pilots win OS pilots will have the choice of staying with OS or moving to BA mainline. The choice is theirs. If BA pilots lose then OS pilots either stay where they are or go to another airline.

one of the BA members pointed out on here that we should support this action because BA lead the t and c every other BALPA member aspires too.

I've never believed that everyone aspires to BA, but for as long as somebody else pays more people will leave and employers feel the upward pressure on T&Cs. Once the top tier starts to come down that pressure on employers eases and it's not good for pilots.

What you guys need to realise is that sometimes for VERY GOOD REASONS some of us work for other companies and do not or cannot work for BA, BUT we may call upon your support on issues that may seem small to you!! BA is not the be all and end all.

I don't think I've met any BA pilots who wouldn't offer moral support to any other UK pilot body. We pay our subs to BALPA, and we pay more in than we get out, but we are willing to accept that for the greater good of the pilot body. We can't offer direct industrial support because that would be illegal, but we continue paying our subs into big BALPA even though we could realistically form our own union with our own money if we wanted to. BA employs pilots from all backgrounds and we stick with BALPA on the basis that we genuinely believe that the pilot body needs to stick together.

good luck to all at BA. despite my seemingly anti post you really do have my utmost support.

Thank you. We appreciate it.

[KC135777]

Good luck BA pilots.
The fight is generic...but here's a peek at ours:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1

and APA President's message to you:
http://www.baplane-bapilot.org/BALPA...12K-Stream.mov

[stormin norman]

So as we have it BALPA want 3200 BA pilots to strike over a subsiduary one aircraft outfit that isn't even flying yet and who's terms and conditions won't affect any pilot presently flying within mainline BA?
Are they Barking ?

[overstress]

So as we have it BALPA want 3200 BA pilots to strike over a subsiduary one aircraft outfit that isn't even flying yet and who's terms and conditions won't affect any pilot presently flying within mainline BA?
Are they Barking ?

Thereby demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of the facts as they stand and also the wider implications for the global pilot market...

...but we know you are only winding us up, Norm!

[pacamack]

Surely if the prospects of a mertitocratic organisation with difficult schedules and fairly average T&Cs are so abhorrent to pilots then OS will be unable to recruit sufficient numbers of pilots to operate and your problem will go away?

[Phil.Capron]

Best of luck to you during this dispute.Someone once said there was no present or future only the past repeating itself.OS reminds me of an airline acquisition that BA undertook in 1992(?).For them industrially it was a train crash and they caved in big time.Can anyone remember the airline?Answers on a postcard........

[courtney]

Arthur Scargill would be proud, so reminiscent of the Miners, Dockers, Fleet St printers, car workers, ludites…….