BA B777 Incident @ Heathrow (merged)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South East
Age: 42
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I quite agree weekendflyer.
The stupid woman on Sky News said earlier "of course we all know that without power a plane glides like a brick". I had to be restrained to stop myself hurling a brick through my TV screen after that priceless gem...
The stupid woman on Sky News said earlier "of course we all know that without power a plane glides like a brick". I had to be restrained to stop myself hurling a brick through my TV screen after that priceless gem...
Firstly the 777 is Fly by Wire
If all Generators and PMG's ( both transfer busses are un-powered ) are lost the Flight Controls will run on DC power from the main battery. Even then they have their own batteries for 1 min while power is transferring around from Battery to RAT.
The APU ( if serviceable, and it is 99% of the time ) Will Automatically start in about 1 min
So.........
Seems to me, looking at the pictures: Both Engines flamed out at around 500'
There are no spoilers deployed, indicating loss of Hydraulic power.
The APU inlet door is open indicating that it was in the process of starting.
Cannot see if the RAT is deployed, but it will be I'm sure.
With the Engines failed and quiet the loud buzzing noise heard by the witness WILL BE THE RAT, it makes quite a noise.
The Crew did an amazing job of using what little excess energy they had available above Vs to reach the grass. Damn fine effort.
Now as to why they lost Power???????????
That's what we need to wait for.
If all Generators and PMG's ( both transfer busses are un-powered ) are lost the Flight Controls will run on DC power from the main battery. Even then they have their own batteries for 1 min while power is transferring around from Battery to RAT.
The APU ( if serviceable, and it is 99% of the time ) Will Automatically start in about 1 min
So.........
Seems to me, looking at the pictures: Both Engines flamed out at around 500'
There are no spoilers deployed, indicating loss of Hydraulic power.
The APU inlet door is open indicating that it was in the process of starting.
Cannot see if the RAT is deployed, but it will be I'm sure.
With the Engines failed and quiet the loud buzzing noise heard by the witness WILL BE THE RAT, it makes quite a noise.
The Crew did an amazing job of using what little excess energy they had available above Vs to reach the grass. Damn fine effort.
Now as to why they lost Power???????????
That's what we need to wait for.
Nunc est bibendum
Report I just read indicated that 27L now open for departures......full length obviously isn't available! 
Glad everyone is OK. Looking forward to an interesting report on this one.
Glad everyone is OK. Looking forward to an interesting report on this one.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wanaka
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speculation
What we know,
The aircraft was a Brirish Airways Boeing 777. It crashed.
What we don't know is
why,
Everything else is speculation... including whether the pilots did a good or a bad job.
Personally, as a pilot who flies B777s and has operated them into Heathrow, I would not wish to be praised for a good job on the basis of speculation or equally I would not wish to be damned in the same circumstances.
When we know for sure please tell me so I can operate more safely myself. Until then just the facts please.
Factual Information below
For what it's worth a double engine failure with plenty of altitude under a B777 does not cause a lot of initial drama. Electrics and Hydraulics continue due to windmilling engines as long as sufficient speed is maintained. Subsequently the RAT will deploy or is deployed manually.
The aircraft was a Brirish Airways Boeing 777. It crashed.
What we don't know is
why,
Everything else is speculation... including whether the pilots did a good or a bad job.
Personally, as a pilot who flies B777s and has operated them into Heathrow, I would not wish to be praised for a good job on the basis of speculation or equally I would not wish to be damned in the same circumstances.
When we know for sure please tell me so I can operate more safely myself. Until then just the facts please.
Factual Information below
For what it's worth a double engine failure with plenty of altitude under a B777 does not cause a lot of initial drama. Electrics and Hydraulics continue due to windmilling engines as long as sufficient speed is maintained. Subsequently the RAT will deploy or is deployed manually.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The outcome of this accident is nothing short of a miracle, regardless of the pilots' skills. I reckon the view from the cockpit in the last 10-15 seconds of this approach must have been sensational.
Buster, perhaps not so interesting when you look at the METAR:
EGLL 171320Z 22016KT 9999 BKN014 BKN020 11/09 Q0996 TEMPO 24020G32KT 6000 SHRA BKN015CB
Given the aircraft is offset to the runway by 45 degrees or so that's what you would expect to see with 20 or 30 kts of breeze at right angles to the rudder.
EGLL 171320Z 22016KT 9999 BKN014 BKN020 11/09 Q0996 TEMPO 24020G32KT 6000 SHRA BKN015CB
Given the aircraft is offset to the runway by 45 degrees or so that's what you would expect to see with 20 or 30 kts of breeze at right angles to the rudder.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well as SLF myself now I have to say well done to the pax. I've never seen so many salivating journos gagging for "dooooooom, horrrrorr!!!!!!" so pissed off by row after row of chaps and chappesses who "felt a bit of a bumpy landing", were a tad cross that "they only gave us water in the terminal for the first hour, still we have some tea now so it's ok" and when one couple who when asked in screeching tones "DID EVERYONE PANNICK AND SPRINT FOR THE EXITS?!!?!?!?!" answered "yes a couple of people did, but then the cabin crew asked them to sit down".
Great job by the flight crew and the cabin crew in ensuring the safety of all concerned and great job by the slf for keeping a stiff upper and dicking the media off when they thought they had a mad panick on their hands.
Great job by the flight crew and the cabin crew in ensuring the safety of all concerned and great job by the slf for keeping a stiff upper and dicking the media off when they thought they had a mad panick on their hands.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Downunder
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Often after an accident you see the phrase "the pilot did a fantastic job", or "he was a great pilot". I wish people would refrain from this because nobody actually knows and while I'm not speculating on this accident no one knows until a report is published. These phrases often cause intense embarrassment when it's not actually the case.
A few years ago not far from here there was a crash that killed everyone on board. The pilot was feted in the media, by his family etc. until the dreadful truth was known. That this individual should have had his licence removed years before for gross incompetence.
Not commenting on this accident as above.
A few years ago not far from here there was a crash that killed everyone on board. The pilot was feted in the media, by his family etc. until the dreadful truth was known. That this individual should have had his licence removed years before for gross incompetence.
Not commenting on this accident as above.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South East
Age: 42
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Out of interest, why are there so few posts on this topic? It's been 12 hours since the accident and only 8 pages... On the BA forum we'd hit that in about 12 minutes... Something to do with the forum being down? I'd assumed the busy messages were due to so many people discussing the incident.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dodging Flybe at EHASC
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Welcome to our world....
I have only a passing interest in aviation (I work in the rail industry) but can I just add a touch of "welcome to our world" here.
The presence of rolling 24hr news, tv cameras, mobile phones and the like mean that bull**** has gone twice around the world before truth has got its boots on to paraphrase a great writer. I worked the night of Ufton Nervet when a MOP decided that he wanted to kill himself by parking his car on a AHB and then waiting for the train to hit him. It took an awfully awfully long time for the news networks to actually comprehend that this was not a "train crash" caused by the railway. The usual airheaded, vacuous ill informed nonsense continued for 24hrs until it dawned.
At one stage the headlines on BBC Radio 5 rolling bull**** were those generated by the phone in preceeding it...i.e. distressed caller "at my level crossing they pass at 100MPH at it takes 29seconds for the barriers to lower......UNSAFE".
Rant over. Some of you may not read this but I thought that some in the "opposition" share some of what has been posted here. Wait for the facts; once speculation hardens it is a bugger to remove.
Cheers.
The presence of rolling 24hr news, tv cameras, mobile phones and the like mean that bull**** has gone twice around the world before truth has got its boots on to paraphrase a great writer. I worked the night of Ufton Nervet when a MOP decided that he wanted to kill himself by parking his car on a AHB and then waiting for the train to hit him. It took an awfully awfully long time for the news networks to actually comprehend that this was not a "train crash" caused by the railway. The usual airheaded, vacuous ill informed nonsense continued for 24hrs until it dawned.
At one stage the headlines on BBC Radio 5 rolling bull**** were those generated by the phone in preceeding it...i.e. distressed caller "at my level crossing they pass at 100MPH at it takes 29seconds for the barriers to lower......UNSAFE".
Rant over. Some of you may not read this but I thought that some in the "opposition" share some of what has been posted here. Wait for the facts; once speculation hardens it is a bugger to remove.
Cheers.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: West Yorkshire Zone
Posts: 976
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I give the BA pilot's full praise for today's attempts to avoid the 'crash landing'
You never know when the 'SIM' training will be needed.
It was a 'miracle' that G YMMM missed the dual carriageway.
Or and to the Australian idiot = Can't you satisfy that us = Brits are not in a GOOD MOOD after today's accident.
Well get you back at hometime.......
You never know when the 'SIM' training will be needed.
It was a 'miracle' that G YMMM missed the dual carriageway.
Or and to the Australian idiot = Can't you satisfy that us = Brits are not in a GOOD MOOD after today's accident.
Well get you back at hometime.......
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"If one loses both engines on a 777 and it takes about a minute to kick in the APU (someone told us that in an earlier post) then what power is available for the fly-by-wire controls in the interim?"
The three flight control DC buses are provided with DC power from 3 dedicated power supply assemblies. Each power supply assembly has a dedicated battery to provide power for brief periods during power source transfers.
If power to the left and right transfer busses is lost, the ram air turbine deploys and the APU auto starts. In the interim power to the left and centre flight control busses is provided from the hot battery bus. (ie from the battery)
The three flight control DC buses are provided with DC power from 3 dedicated power supply assemblies. Each power supply assembly has a dedicated battery to provide power for brief periods during power source transfers.
If power to the left and right transfer busses is lost, the ram air turbine deploys and the APU auto starts. In the interim power to the left and centre flight control busses is provided from the hot battery bus. (ie from the battery)
Evertonian
Okay, here's my 2cents worth:
1. I have no idea what happened.
2. I don't know who the crew are & wouldn't pass it on if I did.
3. I am not the Aussie that made the hoax call.
4. I am very glad that the airmanship of BA crews is still as high as it was when that 742 went through the volcanic cloud.
Okay, can anyone else add to my list?
1. I have no idea what happened.
2. I don't know who the crew are & wouldn't pass it on if I did.
3. I am not the Aussie that made the hoax call.
4. I am very glad that the airmanship of BA crews is still as high as it was when that 742 went through the volcanic cloud.
Okay, can anyone else add to my list?
ACMS;
What's the location of the RAT, please? The 777 AOM doesn't say. The A340's is in the right-outboard canoe on the wing. Seems to me that the RAT deploys from the fuselage - just curious if it's visible from any of the photos, that's all - likely not, but it's some more info. Thanks...
PJ2
What's the location of the RAT, please? The 777 AOM doesn't say. The A340's is in the right-outboard canoe on the wing. Seems to me that the RAT deploys from the fuselage - just curious if it's visible from any of the photos, that's all - likely not, but it's some more info. Thanks...
PJ2
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Europe
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ACMS
There are no spoilers deployed, indicating loss of Hydraulic power.
The APU inlet door is open indicating that it was in the process of starting.
The APU inlet door is open indicating that it was in the process of starting.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The calls for an end to the speculation on this thread are considerably more tedious than the speculation itself.
It is human nature to seek the answers to all that is unknown. What we have here is a puzzle (albeit a potentially disastrous one) and there is no harm in trying to solve it. However, that doesn't mean the speculation should have no bounds. Where the speculation results in, or implies, blame on BA, the crew, Boeing, the Chinese fuel companies etc without absolute fact, then this must be stopped.
However, such postings have largely been absent on this thread, so lets continue to enjoy solving the puzzle....
It is human nature to seek the answers to all that is unknown. What we have here is a puzzle (albeit a potentially disastrous one) and there is no harm in trying to solve it. However, that doesn't mean the speculation should have no bounds. Where the speculation results in, or implies, blame on BA, the crew, Boeing, the Chinese fuel companies etc without absolute fact, then this must be stopped.
However, such postings have largely been absent on this thread, so lets continue to enjoy solving the puzzle....
As I said in an earlier post (which seems to have disappeared - server troubles I assume), "There but for the grace of God......" is something worth keeping in mind before speculating, particularly online.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South East
Age: 42
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The RAT deploys from the fuselage just aft of the right hand gear bay as far as I know.
Just noticed that something has punctured the skin, just aft of D3R. Anyone got a guess as to what caused the damage?
Just noticed that something has punctured the skin, just aft of D3R. Anyone got a guess as to what caused the damage?
The rudder is not unpowered, powered by 3 Power control units, left, centre and right hydraulics and 3 actuator control electronics.
Also see that the APU was running.
Also see that the APU was running.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Florida
Age: 71
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The RAT on a 777 is just aft of the right main gear.....and ahead of the aft cargo door. Just found a good pic of one deployed on a AA777 in flight.
http://www.sportscarwarehouse.com/DSC_0272.jpg
http://www.sportscarwarehouse.com/DSC_0272.jpg