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ACAS 10 bulletin, new R/T

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ACAS 10 bulletin, new R/T

Old 15th Jan 2008, 10:02
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Only half a speed-brake
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New TCAS R/T, Eurocontrol Bulletin #10

Dear all,

just a quick reminder that a new Eurocontrol ACAS bulletin have been published: http://www.eurocontrol.int/msa/galle...tins-BUL10.pdf

Apart from yet again a great wealth of useful operational information, new R/T procedures are highlighted. Procedures implemented in PANS-ATM from 22nd NOV 07.



Thank you John Law and your team, for several years already, the ACAS bulletins have been and continue to be a great aid.


FD (the un-real)

Last edited by FlightDetent; 16th Jan 2008 at 08:00.
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 12:16
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This brief looks like total gobeldigook! Whats with the table - thats not the standard responce....and the illustrations!?

I sincerely hope my company produce something clearer.
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 12:22
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Originally Posted by Dogma
thats not the standard response....
It is THE standart R/T callout now, reference ICAO PANS-ATM Doc 4444. Eversince 22 OCT 07. Learn it and use it, from today on....

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Old 15th Jan 2008, 12:27
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@FD

Isn't it of nov 22nd 07?
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 12:33
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Sorry. "TCAS - AR - EY"
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 12:40
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But, as can be tracked from Dogma's post, not all of us is aware of the amendment
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 13:10
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Originally Posted by DeeKay
But, as can be tracked from Dogma's post, not all of us is aware of the amendment
Hence my initial post, we all should be.
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 16:22
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All that for:

"TCAS RA", "Clear of conflict, returning to" & "Clear of conflict".

It is a piece of junk information, the way it's set up.

I think that it's easier to say "TCAS Climb" or "Tcas descend", as that is what you hear the system announcing.
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 16:37
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Uh oh, another ICAO vs UK difference here. I'll stick with CAP413 whilst in UK airspace and continue to use "TCAS CLIMB" or "TCAS DESCENT".
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 16:45
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Me,
I think I will fly the aircraft first. Avoid the RA and then try and work out whose airspace I am in and what I am meant to say. Whatever I say I will probably get it wrong.
My rules.
1. Keep it safe
2. Keep it simple

At the end of the day, what is more important. There are too many documents with too many conflicts.
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Old 15th Jan 2008, 19:33
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for such a sensible issue, I think soon Uk and then the rest will soon follow..

Hopefully

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Old 16th Jan 2008, 05:37
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I agree with Witraz

Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
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Old 16th Jan 2008, 07:56
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Originally Posted by Miraculix
It is a piece of junk information, the way it's set up.

I think that it's easier to say "TCAS Climb" or "Tcas descend", as that is what you hear the system announcing.
Oh please, do go ahead. Last time we saw a pilot intentionally avoid published procedures, the death toll was 167, right? Latest CAP 413, being a manual not a regulation, is dated 1 MAR 06 and its contents have no relevance to worldwide published standards of PANS-ATM as of 22 NOV 07.

80% of RAs are nuisance 1000 ft level-off situations, what are you going to say on R/T when "adjust V/S, adjust" is issued? TCAS climb? TCAS descent?

FD.
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Old 16th Jan 2008, 07:58
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Originally Posted by Witraz

1. Keep it safe
2. Keep it simple

At the end of the day, what is more important. There are too many documents with too many conflicts.
There's only one document, and the R/T has been greatly simplified. Win-win situation.
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Old 16th Jan 2008, 08:13
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I will not accept procedural changes through "hearsay" on the net, only if made available through my company or authorities and adressed directly at me.

"Well, judge, read it on the web somewhere..."

Nic
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Old 16th Jan 2008, 08:19
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FlightDetent,

there are a couple of things you said which I would like to query.

Originally Posted by FlightDetent
Last time we saw a pilot intentionally avoid published procedures, the death toll was 167, right?
I take it you are talking about Überlingen.

I think if you read the accident report, you will find that he was following procedures published in the flight manual of the aircraft he was flying. There were lots of applicable "published procedures", including those in the airplane flight manual, the regulations of the airspace in which he was flying, ICAO, and Eurocontrol advisory documents, and they were all different.

Originally Posted by FlightDetent
There's only one document
Well, this is legally just not right. The owner of the airspace in which you are flying defines the procedures. That's the document. And it changes every time you cross national boundaries. It is wishful thinking to imagine that all the countries in the world now agree on and have implemented in their air traffic regulations *exactly one* TCAS procedure, don't you think?

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Old 16th Jan 2008, 08:30
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Originally Posted by Admiral346
I will not accept procedural changes through "hearsay" on the net, only if made available through my company or authorities and adressed directly at me.
Neither would I. PPRuNe is not a source, at best, sometimes it is a tool. So is the web. Ask your company/authority to show you ICAO PANS-ATM Doc 4444 page 12-4 (picture above). Then decide.

Yours, FD (the un-real)
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Old 16th Jan 2008, 08:41
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To me the new procedures make sense. HOWEVER, for FD and others, as said above, all pilots MUST adhere to published company procedures and cannot 'change' procedures on the basis of an internet post.

I trust that FD has taken appropriate steps to ensure that the question of when it is implemented in the UK and by individual airlines is resolved?

Until then, we carry on as per SOPs. I will bring this to the attention of my company. Thank you for the post, FD.

Does anyone know HOW this sort of thing is resolved - with an 'effective date' in November and not yet in place?
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Old 16th Jan 2008, 09:22
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Originally Posted by PBL
I take it you are talking about Überlingen.
No dispute with Uberlingen, I share your views. In fact I am talking about Conhongas - pilots's decision not to implement available procedures.

ICAO, and Eurocontrol advisory documents, and they were all different.
So it was and the industry have learned eversince. I only attempt to show that another step was made and is a worldwide standard.

Well, this is legally just not right. The owner of the airspace in which you are flying defines the procedures. That's the document. And it changes every time you cross national boundaries. It is wishful thinking to imagine that all the countries in the world now agree on and have implemented in their air traffic regulations *exactly one* TCAS procedure, don't you think?
Could not agree more. I am ready to learn about airspaces/countries which decided not to adopt latest PANS-ATM chages, be it via web hearsay (and check with official sources if it is so). Until then, it is my responsibility as a pilot is to follow published procedures invented by people far more clever than me.


Groucho: My company would not advise me about recent changes in Doc 4444. They did show me €control ACAS bulletin, however. My SOPs which I must and will follow do not prescribe TCAS phraseologies, but they require me to adopt ICAO standards unless stated otherwise. There is a new standard in place, and I only attempt to bring it into the view of fellow pilots who may find themselves in the same position as I am.

At last, I am afraid that the "new" procedure have been in place for 2 months and it is our responsibility to act accordingly.
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Old 16th Jan 2008, 10:05
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There's only one document, and the R/T has been greatly simplified. Win-win situation.

I wish I could agree, but I fly well outside just Europe. We have had standard R/T phases which have been around since I started flying 34 years ago. Unfortunatley some countries choice to ignore them. I once represented the UK at the Roselawn Phase 3 Icing Conference in Washington and raised some points directly with the FAA and got absolutley nowhere. I recently received in the post a document from the UK CAA on R/T procedures as applied to the UK. Am I waiting for the next 100 or so similar documents to arrive from every country I overfly or visit? Yes I am an old cynic. Too many people sitting in offices pushing pieces of paper around trying to change everything. If change makes flying safer, I will do my best to follow them.
I stick to my policies......
Keep it Safe
Keep it Simple
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