US House of Representatives passes the Freedom to Fly act of 2007
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here is more info from another forum
"Senate passed HR 4343 by unanimous consent this evening at roughly 2145.
When Bush signs it, it's law.
Hayes, etc. will present it to White House tomorrow AM to try to get this signed
ASAP."
"Senate passed HR 4343 by unanimous consent this evening at roughly 2145.
When Bush signs it, it's law.
Hayes, etc. will present it to White House tomorrow AM to try to get this signed
ASAP."
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Seven,
It is reregulated! Before the CAB was disolved The fares were set
and airlines competed on service. After the CAB was disolved and
after several trips through bankruptcy starting with Frank Lorenzo
the courts now regulate the airlines by setting costs and every
competes on fares. simple...
Whats gonna turn it around? Probably nothing.
It is reregulated! Before the CAB was disolved The fares were set
and airlines competed on service. After the CAB was disolved and
after several trips through bankruptcy starting with Frank Lorenzo
the courts now regulate the airlines by setting costs and every
competes on fares. simple...
Whats gonna turn it around? Probably nothing.
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Airline flying is now a push button activity. Those ancient pilots having attained hard won skills honed by years of flying classics have seen those same skills atrophied by virtue of years spent pushing buttons (as per SOPs).
It's therefore a disingenuous argument to claim that advanced age, by default, is accompanied by advanced abilities of superior judgment and competence. The concept of diminishing return comes into play.
Of much more importance in today's somewhat poisoned industry is the ability to function on less than adequate sleep in an environment of management's control and command in which every drop of productivity is extracted with responsibility without autonomy lurking as an ever present menace to true operational safety. Being able (able = young enough) to correctly function without proper rest or support is paramount. Any idiot can push the APP button, but said idiot does have to actually be awake and cognizant of the situation to appropriately do so.
I've seen very few retire at 60 who should have stayed, but I've seen many in the late 50's bracket who would do the industry along with their own declining health a considerable favour by letting the exit door hit them in the rear end as it irrevocably closes. No problems therefore as long as the new legislation stops the aging process advancing beyond the age of 60, not quite so benign a situation however if it doesn't.
It's therefore a disingenuous argument to claim that advanced age, by default, is accompanied by advanced abilities of superior judgment and competence. The concept of diminishing return comes into play.
Of much more importance in today's somewhat poisoned industry is the ability to function on less than adequate sleep in an environment of management's control and command in which every drop of productivity is extracted with responsibility without autonomy lurking as an ever present menace to true operational safety. Being able (able = young enough) to correctly function without proper rest or support is paramount. Any idiot can push the APP button, but said idiot does have to actually be awake and cognizant of the situation to appropriately do so.
I've seen very few retire at 60 who should have stayed, but I've seen many in the late 50's bracket who would do the industry along with their own declining health a considerable favour by letting the exit door hit them in the rear end as it irrevocably closes. No problems therefore as long as the new legislation stops the aging process advancing beyond the age of 60, not quite so benign a situation however if it doesn't.
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To those in USA who object the 65 age limit
I know that many of you, younger pilots, will object to the new 65 age limit. Yet this has existed in many other countries, even before ICAO approved it. The main objection, overseas, was really a question of full retirement pay and benefits, and the airlines, on their side, being forced to employ "senior" pilots with higher "senior" salaries, instead of replacing them with pilots having a much lower salary.
xxx
I know, your immediate objection will be that the senior pilots will occupy the "LH seat" that you would like to have today. It will, for some, delay your upgrade because of vacancies for captain positions. But... see it this way...
xxx
Many countries, unlike USA, do have "age discrimination", that is, the age limits at which they consider you "too old" for being hired. And despite the age anti-discrimination laws, the US airlines did refrain to hire a pilot aged 45 or 50, or older, for very simple reasons. As pilots, we all want, one day in our career, to be a "captain"...
xxx
Time from date of hire, to captaincy has varied because of various circumstances in the US airline industry... Would you agree that the average, with major US airlines, could be said to be some 10 years to become a captain...? Would you accept to be hired yet knowing that you shall never be a captain...? When I was a young pilot, I would never have considered to be an airline pilot if knowing I would never be captain.
xxx
With the 60 age limit, rarely were pilots hired by major airlines in their late 40s, so, in effect, most "HR types" and "chief pilots" would refrain from hiring the more mature candidates, despite the no-discrimination laws...
xxx
Now, the "maximum age limit", whichever is applied as unwritten standard, is in fact raised by 5 extra years. If airline XYZ would rarely take pilots over... say 42, they now will probably consider, say... 47 as a practical limit.
xxx
So, those of you, more mature candidates should have a smile. You still can get hired, and become a captain before reaching retirement... Good luck to those of you who will benefit from the new rules.
xxx
My airline here in Argentina has a 65 limit and always had that limit, and yes, we have hired pilots at age 45... who became captain at 55, and were able to have 10 years of career as captain.
xxx
All the best to you -
Happy contrails
xxx
I know, your immediate objection will be that the senior pilots will occupy the "LH seat" that you would like to have today. It will, for some, delay your upgrade because of vacancies for captain positions. But... see it this way...
xxx
Many countries, unlike USA, do have "age discrimination", that is, the age limits at which they consider you "too old" for being hired. And despite the age anti-discrimination laws, the US airlines did refrain to hire a pilot aged 45 or 50, or older, for very simple reasons. As pilots, we all want, one day in our career, to be a "captain"...
xxx
Time from date of hire, to captaincy has varied because of various circumstances in the US airline industry... Would you agree that the average, with major US airlines, could be said to be some 10 years to become a captain...? Would you accept to be hired yet knowing that you shall never be a captain...? When I was a young pilot, I would never have considered to be an airline pilot if knowing I would never be captain.
xxx
With the 60 age limit, rarely were pilots hired by major airlines in their late 40s, so, in effect, most "HR types" and "chief pilots" would refrain from hiring the more mature candidates, despite the no-discrimination laws...
xxx
Now, the "maximum age limit", whichever is applied as unwritten standard, is in fact raised by 5 extra years. If airline XYZ would rarely take pilots over... say 42, they now will probably consider, say... 47 as a practical limit.
xxx
So, those of you, more mature candidates should have a smile. You still can get hired, and become a captain before reaching retirement... Good luck to those of you who will benefit from the new rules.
xxx
My airline here in Argentina has a 65 limit and always had that limit, and yes, we have hired pilots at age 45... who became captain at 55, and were able to have 10 years of career as captain.
xxx
All the best to you -
Happy contrails
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you must be a joke!!!
To answer your question: Err, no. But then I'm not close to 60 either, so I fail to see any merit to this age 60+ argument. Of course, should I reach 60 and become desperate I might change my tune; self-serving expediency has a habit of overriding integrity and common sense.
Last edited by XL5; 13th Dec 2007 at 06:00.
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XL5
I am not a grand dad yet but if I where I would teach you a few things you haven't learned in life. And if you were my co-pilot I would make you sit on you'r hands and really learn a lot!
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I've never understood...
I've never understood the logic of all of this. In my mind, we should be lobbying for LOWERING the age to...say, 55....Yep, that's it...55!
So, at 55 I get out, walk away with a fat pension, medical/dental benefits for life, etc., etc.
Why make me wait to 60...or 65...to get all this????
(So, you think I'm an idiot.... Members of Congress have a similar deal already!)
Fly Safe,
PantLoad
So, at 55 I get out, walk away with a fat pension, medical/dental benefits for life, etc., etc.
Why make me wait to 60...or 65...to get all this????
(So, you think I'm an idiot.... Members of Congress have a similar deal already!)
Fly Safe,
PantLoad
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Why make me wait to 60...or 65...to get all this????
(So, you think I'm an idiot.... Members of Congress have a similar deal already!)
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Hola PantLoad -
xxx
Well, I can make you understand how it does work overseas, about pensions, and medical insurances... In the USA, you have the Social Security, the disgrace of a nation that calls itself the first nation of the world... Overseas, people who work, (not only pilots) pay generally higher income tax, but have great benefits.
xxx
Most companies (including airlines) give full retirement benefits after a set "career" time... often, it is 30 years. Some places, some type of careers, give such benefits after 25 years... i.e. government employees of some countries...
xxx
In my airline here in Argentina, we can get full retirement benefit after 30 years of service... So if you were hired at 25 of age, you can get full retirement on your 55th birthday. Many pilots quit when they reach the full retirement years of service (then go overseas to get more money, unreported, for cash "tax free")... Most notorious in that "hobby" are airline pilots from Europe. In many countries, as well, after reaching the "full 30 years career", staying longer will not increase your retirement This is an incentive for people to quit earlier... Many of our pilots leave after 30 years of career, having reached their "maximum" for retirement.
xxx
In the USA, sadly, I know many pilots who were forced to retire at 60, and became unable to survive decently, after having suffered layoffs, and forced to wait for age 62 to get partial Social Security retirement income, a few pennies. Good friends of mine survive as bartender, or taxicab driver... and pay their ex-wives who got their house and Mercedes... which is unheard of, for pilots who had a career overseas.
xxx
Living in a "third world" country, I will survive ok, when I hit 65 next November.
The Beatles had a song... "Will you still love me, when I'm 64..."
Happy contrails.
xxx
Well, I can make you understand how it does work overseas, about pensions, and medical insurances... In the USA, you have the Social Security, the disgrace of a nation that calls itself the first nation of the world... Overseas, people who work, (not only pilots) pay generally higher income tax, but have great benefits.
xxx
Most companies (including airlines) give full retirement benefits after a set "career" time... often, it is 30 years. Some places, some type of careers, give such benefits after 25 years... i.e. government employees of some countries...
xxx
In my airline here in Argentina, we can get full retirement benefit after 30 years of service... So if you were hired at 25 of age, you can get full retirement on your 55th birthday. Many pilots quit when they reach the full retirement years of service (then go overseas to get more money, unreported, for cash "tax free")... Most notorious in that "hobby" are airline pilots from Europe. In many countries, as well, after reaching the "full 30 years career", staying longer will not increase your retirement This is an incentive for people to quit earlier... Many of our pilots leave after 30 years of career, having reached their "maximum" for retirement.
xxx
In the USA, sadly, I know many pilots who were forced to retire at 60, and became unable to survive decently, after having suffered layoffs, and forced to wait for age 62 to get partial Social Security retirement income, a few pennies. Good friends of mine survive as bartender, or taxicab driver... and pay their ex-wives who got their house and Mercedes... which is unheard of, for pilots who had a career overseas.
xxx
Living in a "third world" country, I will survive ok, when I hit 65 next November.
The Beatles had a song... "Will you still love me, when I'm 64..."
Happy contrails.
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Oddly enough, XL5, many of the 'younger' folks I fly with now have rather a hard time keeping awake, to actually push those all-important buttons, when operating on minimum rest.
Day or night.
Day or night.
XL5
During the last 2-3 weeks, me and my colleagues where I come from have been battling a spell of bad weather, with frequent passing of low-pressure systems and winds of 45-70 knots. Obviously, for some reasons these winds are never straight down the runway and carry their usual amount of gusts and windshears. I am heading back tonight and the forecast for my arrival time is for gusts to 58kts. I can assure you that involves no pushbutton activity, my 75 or 76 morphes into a basic airplane. 
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Along the lines of aging and flying...
One of you gentlemen sent me a PM...
He had good points... but I shall mention again this fact.
xxx
Obviously, there is a time for all of us, to quit flying (or even drive a car) at the age of "senility"... physical reasons, and mental reasons. Licensing is a question. You will now be told to hang your coat at 65, my USA friends, even if you would like to continue flying your 747 or your DC10... and maybe chase Suzy, the SSS (Sexy Senior Stew) - provided you get an remedial emergency treatment of Viagra administered by I/V...
xxx
Yet, 65 is not the end of your flying, you can still take a Cessna, and at age 78 or 83, be at 1,000 AGL, on the approach path of an airport with airline traffic. Yet, you can be legal to fly with no age limit, privately if you want to... I do not know age statistics of "old farts" still currently flying. Personally I know one who is 82 or 83...
xxx
Sad consideration to mention -
I recall a Cessna (172) collision with a PSA 727 in San Diego, was in 1978... So even if 65 is the new age limit in USA, you yet have a tremendous responsibility, after a given age, to take a lighplane in the air, and avoid a mid-air which will be, God forbid, a high density A-380 with 750 passengers going to a sunny beach in the Carribean...
xxx
And those of you who know the FARs... read Part 125... it deals with commercial operations as well, of large airplanes. Yet, there is no age limit to be a captain or a first officer on an airplane that could be... a 1011 with some 350 passengers. It is not an "airline operation", yet FAR 125 is an operation for hire... without a typical airline AOC.
xxx
I have an acquaintance, who, at age 73 (and a great guy), retired airline, who operates (and flies often himself) a pair of 727-100s, with VIP interior, some 50 luxury seats, with passengers such as famous rock-music bands, or NBA sport teams... He is paid for that, and it is a commercial operation, and perfecty legal, worldwide...
xxx
So, the new FAR 121 age change... is really not changing much. Fact is, as many of you did mention, there are pilots who should be forced to retire well before their 55 or 60th birthday... How to deal with these considerations...?
xxx
Well, at my advanced age, I am not proficient with push buttons anyway. Personally, I dont know that "Otto Länd" guy you always mention in the Tech Forum... I rather fly it down like my good buddy "Manuel"... It is more fun.
xxx
Let me push some buttons (if I can find them on the mouse) to publish this.
Happy contrails
He had good points... but I shall mention again this fact.
xxx
Obviously, there is a time for all of us, to quit flying (or even drive a car) at the age of "senility"... physical reasons, and mental reasons. Licensing is a question. You will now be told to hang your coat at 65, my USA friends, even if you would like to continue flying your 747 or your DC10... and maybe chase Suzy, the SSS (Sexy Senior Stew) - provided you get an remedial emergency treatment of Viagra administered by I/V...
xxx
Yet, 65 is not the end of your flying, you can still take a Cessna, and at age 78 or 83, be at 1,000 AGL, on the approach path of an airport with airline traffic. Yet, you can be legal to fly with no age limit, privately if you want to... I do not know age statistics of "old farts" still currently flying. Personally I know one who is 82 or 83...
xxx
Sad consideration to mention -
I recall a Cessna (172) collision with a PSA 727 in San Diego, was in 1978... So even if 65 is the new age limit in USA, you yet have a tremendous responsibility, after a given age, to take a lighplane in the air, and avoid a mid-air which will be, God forbid, a high density A-380 with 750 passengers going to a sunny beach in the Carribean...
xxx
And those of you who know the FARs... read Part 125... it deals with commercial operations as well, of large airplanes. Yet, there is no age limit to be a captain or a first officer on an airplane that could be... a 1011 with some 350 passengers. It is not an "airline operation", yet FAR 125 is an operation for hire... without a typical airline AOC.
xxx
I have an acquaintance, who, at age 73 (and a great guy), retired airline, who operates (and flies often himself) a pair of 727-100s, with VIP interior, some 50 luxury seats, with passengers such as famous rock-music bands, or NBA sport teams... He is paid for that, and it is a commercial operation, and perfecty legal, worldwide...
xxx
So, the new FAR 121 age change... is really not changing much. Fact is, as many of you did mention, there are pilots who should be forced to retire well before their 55 or 60th birthday... How to deal with these considerations...?
xxx
Well, at my advanced age, I am not proficient with push buttons anyway. Personally, I dont know that "Otto Länd" guy you always mention in the Tech Forum... I rather fly it down like my good buddy "Manuel"... It is more fun.
xxx
Let me push some buttons (if I can find them on the mouse) to publish this.
Happy contrails
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`(1) NONRETROACTIVITY- No person who has attained 60 years of age before the date of enactment of this section may serve as a pilot for an air carrier engaged in covered operations unless--
`(A) such person is in the employment of that air carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as a required flight deck crew member;
`(A) such person is in the employment of that air carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as a required flight deck crew member;
A few U.S. pax airlines still have some classic planes running around, some of those FE's will be back in the left seat if they like, or at least, getting some form of bypass pay.
ALPA sure slid this thing through fast, APA and some of the vocal opposition were caught napping. Looks like it's all over but the whining...
Trash du Blanc
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I'm told that the FedEx MEC lobbied hard to keep this provision in the bill allow over 60 FE's to come back to the controls.
And it wasn't the MEC, it was the MEC chair. He's looking to move to Herndon.
One of the MEC told me the NWA response to the FE's over sixty was "f*ck 'em." A little harsh, maybe, but hard to argue with, if you truly represent all the pilots, not just the ones of a certain vintage.
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It's a done deal:
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
December 13, 2007
Statement by the Press Secretary
White House News
On Thursday, December 13, 2007, the President signed into law:
H.R. 4343, the "Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act," which raises the mandatory retirement age from 60 years to 65 years for pilots serving on commercial passenger flights within the United States.
Office of the Press Secretary
December 13, 2007
Statement by the Press Secretary
White House News
On Thursday, December 13, 2007, the President signed into law:
H.R. 4343, the "Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act," which raises the mandatory retirement age from 60 years to 65 years for pilots serving on commercial passenger flights within the United States.
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I would think this is great news for the expat pilot world. The largest pool of unemployed qualified pilots has just dried up! Maybe this will help push salaries up (I know - wishful thinking).
TripNic
TripNic