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A340 of Iberia skids off runway in Quito

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A340 of Iberia skids off runway in Quito

Old 19th Dec 2007, 16:13
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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I know this is not the same situation, but again, the same doubts raised by that ill fated TAM Airbus ... this time around the spoilers have deployed, but not the reversers... if this runway was similar to CGN we would be talking about a great number of fatalities here. I've also noted that the runway overrun ocurred at similar speeds.

The lack of manual override of fully computerised systems is a bit worrying.
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Old 19th Dec 2007, 16:33
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Nevertheless, computers which prevent the manual selection of reverse thrust (or even ground idle) because they won't be told that the (damaged) aircraft is actually on the ground......
If you smash up the input system then any computer will give you an unpredictable output. Did not the Brittannia 757 not do strange things with its engines after they managed to break the fuselage, and that was only with a 3.1G touchdown.

Even if the reversers had activated I doubt it would have made a significant difference to the outcome given the high groundspeed, relatively short runway and the absence of at least 33% of the braking capacity.
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Old 19th Dec 2007, 16:48
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Two things to consider:

- Reversers will only give you another 100-200m - And the plane only
needed 200m to stop from 85kt because the gear was ripped off.

- Wasn't there a Lauda 767 that did a roll and crashed after one reverser
was deployed in flight ... - Every thing has to sides: The Airbus
logic might have prevented the accident 767 while Boeing logic (= able to reverse
manually) might not have prevented this overrun but might have helped
to decelerate a bit more. Same for the LH A320 Crash in Warsaw.

EDML
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Old 19th Dec 2007, 20:46
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Tediek - Good morning, does anybody know the latest status of the plane? Are they repairing the a/c?
She's out of the mud now and parked on GA ramp with no 3 & 4 engines removed... Pic here: http://www.elcomercio.com/noticiaEC....&id_seccion=11

Great cctv video of landing & recovery at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7AnV24-RLQ

Further info: http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/sh...0&page=5&pp=25
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 00:53
  #165 (permalink)  
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Question

Any A346 experts out there, who´s the subcontractor that make the landing gear, Goodrich, http://www.wheelsandbrakes.goodrich....cts/a340.shtml seem to make the wheels and brakes not the landing gear, http://www.lgd.goodrich.com/product_apps.shtml
What are the specs that Airbus give to them which g-force tolerance are specified?
How heavy was the aircraft when it landed, fuel left?

Last edited by alexmcfire; 20th Dec 2007 at 01:26.
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Old 19th Feb 2008, 10:54
  #166 (permalink)  
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Question

So heard some rumors from Spain that it is a write-off, anyone can confirm that?
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Old 20th Feb 2008, 10:47
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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An ex-Airbus; it has ceased to be ...

It appears so; a Spanish poster on A.net said that the decision has been taken to write it off; presumably IB doesn't want to say anything publicly.
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Old 8th Apr 2008, 11:33
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Is there any news on this aircraft? Is it a write off? The a/c scrapped already or still waiting in a corner?
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Old 2nd May 2008, 16:42
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Confirmed as a write-off

Regrettably, but not surprisingly, it has been decided that EC-JOH has been written off.

Parting-out is expected to commence at Quito within the next few days and should take about three weeks.
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Old 2nd May 2008, 20:05
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe a Friday night glass of Rioja has made me sentimental but there is something indefinably sad about a virtually new aircraft being written off.
I flew MAD-UIO last summer on another Iberia -600. They're equipped with a real - time camera in the vert stab and it is breathtaking to watch the approach. What a shame.

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Old 2nd May 2008, 20:50
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pinkman....
What a shame
Its a shame they (IB) f...ed-up!
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Old 3rd May 2008, 19:38
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testpanel: maybe you´re right, maybe not...

I´ve been to Quito and I surely dont want to go there in bad weather with wet runway in a very heavy aircraft.

Maybe that aircraft is too big for that airport?
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Old 7th May 2008, 09:23
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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Busbert, very interesting information there.

Just one small correction:
Originally Posted by Busbert
Result: no autobrake, no spoilers, no reverse thrust.
The Quito A340 did deploy spoilers after - touchdown would be the wrong wording, woudn't it? - as the conditions for this were met (for a very short time).
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Old 7th May 2008, 16:28
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The Quito A340 did deploy spoilers after - touchdown would be the wrong wording, woudn't it? - as the conditions for this were met (for a very short time).
Could you elaborate on this ? I was under the impression that this was a non reversible condition.
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Old 7th May 2008, 18:13
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atakacs
Originally Posted by joernstu
The Quito A340 did deploy spoilers after - touchdown would be the wrong wording, woudn't it? - as the conditions for this were met (for a very short time).
Could you elaborate on this ? I was under the impression that this was a non reversible condition.
Originally Posted by Airbus All-Operators Telex
At touchdown, engine throttles were retarded to idle [...] and the ground spoilers deployed immediately.
Although apparently the wiring transmitting the wheight-on-wheels signal was severed, it seems that it just came through on touchdown, thus satisfying the ground spoiler extension condition: they deployed.

Reverse Thrust, as per SOP, was probably only selected after touchdown, when the WoW-signal was no longer available, and since this is one of the conditions for RT deployment, RT was unavailable. So was autobrake, apparently. Although to my knowledge AB is triggered by the same signal as the Ground Spoilers, its continuing operation may depend on other conditions, which were lost.

Originally Posted by FCOM 1.27.10, P11
GROUND SPOILERS CONTROL
[...]
Extension
- Full extension
The ground spoilers automatically extend [...] at landing, when both main landing gear have touched down, and:
. All thrust levers are set to idle, provided ground spoilers are armed, or
. Reverse is selected on at least two symmetrical engines (reminaing engines at idle).
The spoiler roll function is inhibited when spoilers are used for the ground spoiler function.

[...]

Retraction:

The ground spoilers retract when
- one thrust lever is above idle
- or, all thrust levers are at forward idle and the speedbrakes control lever is pushed down.

[...] after an aircraft bounce (aircraft airborne) if the spoilers are extended:
- They remain extended with thrust lever at idle
[...]
I conclude from this, if it is accurate for the -600 model, that once the ground spoiler extension condition has been satisfied, they stay extended, until the retraction conditions are met, independent of the WoW condition, to avoid spoiler retraction during a bounce.

Conversely, Reverse Thrust actuation depends on continuous aircraft-on-ground-signal from at least one LGCIU, so in its absense, RT will not activate, and a deployed reverser would be stowed.


Bernd
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Old 7th May 2008, 20:24
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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I conclude from this, if it is accurate for the -600 model, that once the ground spoiler extension condition has been satisfied, they stay extended, until the retraction conditions are met, independent of the WoW condition, to avoid spoiler retraction during a bounce.

Conversely, Reverse Thrust actuation depends on continuous aircraft-on-ground-signal from at least one LGCIU, so in its absense, RT will not activate, and a deployed reverser would be stowed.
In view of the above and the tragic TAM accident I am still believing that a "panic stop" button (or more to the point some sort of procedure to get maximal breaking performance from the automation systems regardless of what they "think" of the pilot intentions or actual plane condition) could be a welcome enhancement.

Granted such a system would generate it's own problems (such as possible unwanted activation) but I can't help but shudder about those AB pilots sitting in front of their glass cockpit and just watching the end of the runaway approaching in panic while desperately trying to obtain some breaking ! In both cases there where "good" reasons for the systems refusing reverser / spoiler / auto break but the lack of manual override is unnerving.

Just my 2c
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Old 8th May 2008, 02:17
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In view of the above and the tragic TAM accident I am still believing that a "panic stop" button ... could be a welcome enhancement
Automatism play tricks on us, I agree ... but the "panic stop" button you mention may well be standard equipment already: TOGA ... especially when Thrust REV did not yet deploy.
It won't end the ride though, but still, a nice alternative.
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Old 8th May 2008, 08:30
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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Automatism play tricks on us, I agree ... but the "panic stop" button you mention may well be standard equipment already: TOGA ... especially when Thrust REV did not yet deploy.
It won't end the ride though, but still, a nice alternative.
Good point, although in Quito I'm not sure anyone would have wanted to go airborne again...
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Old 8th May 2008, 08:36
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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Warsaw

The whole thing is sadly reminiscent of the Lufty 2904 accident in Warsaw.

They landed in a strong tailwind on a wet runway on one leg. Reverse and Spoiler only became available when the second gear landed, by which time it was too late.. Some sort of manual override would have been helpful here too.

To be sure, the right descision would have been to put the throttles to TOGA.

OORW
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Old 8th May 2008, 08:53
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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Warsaw

OutOfRunWay,

The accident at Warsaw prompted a design change, namely to deploy spoilers partially with only one MLG on the ground to dump some lift and assist in getting the second MLG down as soon as possible to get Full Ground Spoilers and Reverse Thrust.


Bernd
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