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Air Europa 738 at Katowice?

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Air Europa 738 at Katowice?

Old 29th Oct 2007, 09:44
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Would you land CAT I by such METAR ?
Maybe.....
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 09:50
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Ptkay:

You said: "They were obviously landing below minimums for this location".

ATC said: "Their was fog over the airfield that night, but visibility was sufficient for landing".

You have made a very serious accusation. Were you there at the time? I doubt, it but ATC were.

You have trotted out the half-hourly METARS as your "evidence". The lowest RVR quoted on the METARS is 700 metres. The normal RVR minima for a CAT1 approach is 550 metres but I seem to remember that Katowice was nearer to 700 metres.

In any event, none of this matters unless we know what ACTUAL RVR was passed to the aircraft at the time of the approach before we can even begin to speculate. In this case, ATC state that it was sufficient for a landing so they clearly did not make an approach with the weather below minimuns. The METAR has got absolutely nothing to do with it

If you don't really know what you are talking about then keep quiet. Making such serious allegations could get you into serious trouble.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 09:56
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Sorry to everybody, I checked my information,
and according to it the accident happened in the night
27/28th "shortly after changing the summer to winter time",
so shortly after 28th 02 ZULU

I corrected the METARS in my earlier posts.
Sorry again for the confusion.

You have trotted out the half-hourly METARS as your "evidence". The lowest RVR quoted on the METARS is 700 metres. The normal RVR minima for a CAT1 approach is 550 metres but I seem to remember that Katowice was nearer to 700 metres.
My mistake, but RVR from 02 ZULU are 027/0500, so 500m

Let's wait for the official report, maybe in a year or two...


EOT
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 11:11
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Just cked the minum for KAT:
RVR 550m with FULL light
DA 1194ft
Thr 27 elv 994ft so we have a 200ft DH
HIRL,HIALS+SFL but no PAPI

Ptkay looks like you are well informed,so if you have any friend working
at KAT ATC would be very nice to know what ACTUAL RVR was passed
to the crew at the time.
Anyway I think is quite amazing that in 2 pages of posts I can find
drink&fly allegation, landing below minima allegation but I can`t find
the date and time of the incident.(probably i missed it correct me if i`m wrong)
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 11:23
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According to the media, it was 28.10.2007 at 0207Z.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 11:57
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Post #23: Sorry to everybody, I checked my information,
and according to it the accident happened in the night
27/28th "shortly after changing the summer to winter time",
so shortly after 28th 02 ZULU
Wojtuś, thanks for confirmation...
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 12:03
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would be very nice to know what ACTUAL RVR was passed
to the crew at the time.
If time of landing was 0207Z, then they probably got this:

EPKT 280200Z VRB02KT 0300 R27/0500 R09/0600 FG BKN001 08/08 Q1027

So general visibility was 300m,
RVR on 27 was 500m, so less than 550m mentioned above for CAT I
and ceiling was 100ft, so less than 200ft mentioned above for CAT I as well...
But I was supposed to shut up...
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 12:12
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Ceiling is irrelevant, only the actual RVR passed to the crew is and the time it was passed (before or after the 1000ft point).
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 12:31
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Ceiling is irrelevant...
Must not the DH (200ft in this case)
be below the ceiling (100ft in this case)??

DECISION HEIGHT [ICAO]- A specified height in the precision approach at which a missed approach must be initiated if the required visual reference to continue the approach has not been established.
Note: The required visual reference means that section of the visual aids or of the approach area which should have been in view for sufficient time for the pilot to have made an assessment of the aircraft position and rate of change of position, in relation to the desired flight path.
Of course maybe they could see through the clouds.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 12:36
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Husky one,
Thank you for stressing the concept, you are perfectly correct,
so 500m... taking into account that in these situations RVR is seldom stable maybe they got a value higer than the minumum at the time.
This could be the case because as reported on www.flightglobal.com,
the next incoming a/c, a Wizzair A320, had to wait for the runway
to be clean from debris and then made an uneventfull landing; probably
with ALS out and in this case the RVR goes up to 1000m. But probably they
busted the minimum as well.... no
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 12:43
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cough, but surely Jizz air is in the sh#t also, landing with half the approach light system ripped out in fog as the previous mentioned.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 13:51
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Ptkay: You are speaking about METAR which is issue every 30 min.(normally), we are speaking about instantaneous RVR readings that are
available to the controller every 15 sec., BKN001 doesn`t constitute a limitation for ILS precision app.,Just to give an example: ATIS info A at 0200UTC RVR27 400m BKN 001, once in contact with TWR they tell you RVR now is 600/550/700 what do you do?He will not give you cloud base!
METAR and TAF are used for planning pourposes on the ground or inflight replannig!
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 14:25
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Point taken.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 15:14
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c'mon guys, in Poland there are not so many events of this gravity so it's very nice opportunity for guys like Ptkay to be in the "center of universe" for a short moment with his "expert" theoretical knowledge and sensational speculations...
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 15:59
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Ptkay:
How many times do you need to be told that if you really don't know what you are talking about, then keep quiet.

The cloud base is irrelevant and plays no part in the minima for a precision approach as far as commencing and making the approach is concerned.

METARS are irrelevant.

The only thing that IS relevant is the ACTUAL RVR passed to the crew at the decision point on this precision approach (except in so much that the DH on a CAT 1 approach could well be the limiting factor).

Under JARs, it is perfectly legal to commence an approach if the touch down RVR is below minima provided that, AT THE DECISION POINT, the RVR is at or above minima. After the Decision Point (which could be defined as at the OM or 4 DME etc) the RVR can fall below the minima again and the approach can be contined to DH. (If no DME is involved in the approach, then this point becomes defined as 1,000 ft AAL).

To summarise, unless you know what RVR was passed to this aircraft AT THE DECISION POINT during this approach then you are talking absolute b*llocks.

If you don't really know what you are talking about then it is better to keep quiet rather than open your mouth and confirm the fact!

I have a pretty good idea about what might have happened, but even with 50years of experience, I would not dream of suggesting this on this forum. How can you possibly state that the crew obviously landed below their minimums?
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 16:40
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awful accident...

Last edited by AdamLT; 30th Oct 2007 at 11:05.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 17:37
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JW411:

as mentioned before

Point taken.
You don't have to roll over me again...

Finally it is a RUMOUR forum.

AdamJT:

Is this your comment to the incident or to JW411...

If to JW411, he might not understand, what you mean.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 18:06
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Ptkay:

"It is a RUMOUR forum".

Accusing a professional crew of landing below minimums is not a rumour but an accusation of the most serious kind and you had no reason to make that accusation. I see from your profile that you have a JAR PPL (A). That hardly makes you an expert but I am sure you will learn rapidly as you progress.

Adam LT:

I see that you are an architectural assistant and that you dream of being an airline pilot. I shall say no more.

Perhaps both of you should realise that if you start talking nonsense on a professional pilots website, then you must expect to be attacked by those of us who have been around for more than a while.

I wish both of you good luck in your aspirations. In aviation, you NEVER stop learning!
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 18:37
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In aviation, you NEVER stop learning!
This is what has been told to me all the time.

I am here to learn from professionals like you.
I post the information I can get, mostly the second hand,
and expect you, the professionals, to comment on it in
professional and informative manner.

I appreciate your comment, that we don't know what the minima were,
but what we know for sure, is that the "professional pilot"
cut 870m of approach lights almost killing 114 Polish soldiers
returning home...

Don't be surprised if I am looking for an answer why?

Also to learn something.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 18:43
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(except in so much that the DH on a CAT 1 approach could well be the limiting factor).
Anyway I appreciate, that you, at least partly agree that ceiling
is not totally irrelevant in this case.
The required visual reference means that section of the visual aids or of the approach area which should have been in view for sufficient time for the pilot to have made an assessment of the aircraft position and rate of change of position, in relation to the desired flight path.
Looking at the result, the pilot obviously didn't have the "required visual reference"
at the Decision Point at Decision Height.
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