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SAS Q400 gear collaps CPH 27/10

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SAS Q400 gear collaps CPH 27/10

Old 11th Mar 2008, 00:26
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Great news! I guess both sides have settled the issue.

I strongly believe that Bombardier adopted the , "let the customer win, or the customer is always right, " concept.
Their ultimate goal was the prevent the SAS group from going with the competitors (ATR, Embraer). At least now, the Scandinavian regional market willstill be predominantly BBD.

I agree, just another PR lingo.."Q400 NextGen"... gives a nice ring to it... but it still has to prove itself worthy and much, much, more better than the current Q400... less the main landing gear problems or it's back to the drawing board..."again"..
Or maybe they know how to fix/maintain them properly?????

Will see what the investigation concludes?
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Old 11th Mar 2008, 07:10
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I strongly believe that Bombardier adopted the , "let the customer win, or the customer is always right, " concept.
Will see what the investigation concludes?
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Old 11th Mar 2008, 07:45
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pineridge,

I admit I lack the in depth knowledge of WFs network and organisation and used Hammerfest as an example of a nasty airport, having a hazy recollection of a DH8 prang there some years back. But that's besides the point, which is along the lines of:

Widerøe`s routes in Norway are a little thin for jet ecomomics.
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Old 11th Mar 2008, 13:41
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I guess SAS are taking the CRJs and the affiliates the Q400s under their own colours with a wee "flying for SAS" logo?
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Old 12th Mar 2008, 17:46
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I strongly believe that Bombardier wouldn´t have payed any compensation if SAS was at fault. Bombardier would have done just fine without this order.

Still waiting for the final reports...
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Old 13th Mar 2008, 09:05
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Any one know what's going on with the Grounded Q400s?
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Old 13th Mar 2008, 11:07
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Some of them are going here (courtesy of Commercial Aviation Online):

The Austrian Airlines Group has emerged as one of the customers acquiring the SAS’ Bombardier Dash8Q-400 fleet. The Group is acquiring four aircraft of the type that will be delivered during the course of the summer.

“These are aircraft that were delivered in 2001 and 2002 and have also been in use at SAS without any problem,” says the Group.

Before the Dash8Q-400 fleet is phased in, they will be subjected to a detailed technical “phase-in” check and converted to the Austrian standard with maintenance costs totalling €1.5 million per aircraft. This also includes extensive modification and maintenance work on the landing gear, replacing components and work in the passenger cabin.

In return the Austrian Airlines Group will be releasing three CRJ-200LRs and disposing of two 1995/96-vintage Dash8-300s from the Austrian arrows fleet.

CAO is aware of more SAS and Wideroe Bombardier Dash 8Q-400s subject to letter of intention. One transaction will see the four 2002-vintage Wideroe aircraft and two SAS aircraft moving to Asia.

According to sources, the SAS and Wideroe Q-400s are being acquired between $11 million and $12.5 million each, with an average price of $11.5 million.
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Old 13th Mar 2008, 11:13
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Same story, very slightly different angle

http://www.abtn.co.uk/SAS_Group_orders_Q400s
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Old 19th Mar 2008, 02:50
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I strongly believe that Bombardier wouldn´t have payed any compensation if SAS was at fault.
Not true at all......this is not a, who is right or wrong issue. BBD's primary concern was to prevent SAS from going with Embraer or ATR. Sometimes you just have to let the customer win so you can continue to do business with them. It's all about the art of reciprocity.

bombardier would have done just fine without this order.
Absolute status is not the issue here. In the long run, relative gains versus Embraer or ATR, are important to the company.
It would have been a huge blow to BBD if SAS would have order E-jets or ATR72s......
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Old 19th Mar 2008, 07:21
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I disagree.

I don´t think SAS´s order for 27 aircraft is so crucially important to Bombardier that they agree to pay 1 billion SEK, to secure an order worth 6,5 billion SEK.
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Old 19th Mar 2008, 09:09
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For a customer of the size and status of SAS and for the size of order placed, any manufacturer - Airbus, Boeing, Embraer or Bombardier - would offer discounts from list of 20 - 30%. If SAS want, for PR reasons, to dress up the usual discount as "compensation" Bombardier wouldn't have a problem with it.
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Old 19th Mar 2008, 09:24
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This recent article points out what´s supposedly new on the Q400 NextGen:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...owing-sas.html

"Upgraded aircraft operating manual to reduce fuel burn" caught my attention. Exactly how is fuel burn reduced by changing something in the operating manual? Telling the pilots to throttle back? Genius at work here
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Old 19th Mar 2008, 09:42
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Sure thing, called "long range cruise"

Last edited by His dudeness; 19th Mar 2008 at 10:20.
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Old 19th Mar 2008, 09:54
  #454 (permalink)  
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Exactly how is fuel burn reduced by changing something in the operating manual?

Do away with the heavy ring binding, use smaller fonts and print it on tissue paper

In fact the aircraft has outperformed the original performance figures and I believe the new manuals will reflect this.

sr
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Old 19th Mar 2008, 15:01
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What does BBD gain from claiming that they were not at fault? Let me see???? "Ahhaa told you so", & risk pissing off the customer to the point that they go with Embraer??

So far there is no real indication that BBD is liable for all three accidents. Why would they try and settle the issue fast, when the investigation is not pointing the finger towards them so far?
Answer, to save the customer, even if it means giving them a big discount!

It's the art of Business & reciprocity. You never know, SAS just might buy more CRJ 900s or even C-Series?

If SAS would have gone with Embraer, then BBD would have truly lost in the end.

I really don't like BBD management, but I think they did a great job on this one!
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Old 19th Mar 2008, 21:05
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So Torquelink, Bombardier doesn´t have a problem with the negative PR that this compensation creates for them? Doesn´t negative PR have a negative effect on future sales to new potential customers?

Flaps2billion, repeating yourself doesn´t make it true.
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Old 20th Mar 2008, 16:14
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Ladusvala, when the operator concerned orders another 27 aircraft, anyone who's likely to be buying similar aircraft will, without a shadow of a doubt, recognise that this is not "compensation" - just a reasonable discount in order to secure the new deal. So, while I'm sure Bombardier would rather have done without any of the hassle following the SAS grounding, they'll be very pleased to have picked up an order for 27 aircraft safe in the knowledge that anyone in the business will recongise that the "compensation" description is just agreed PR flannel for use by SAS.
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Old 20th Mar 2008, 20:08
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What you are saying, Torquelink, is that SAS would have gotten the same price if there hade not been any crash landings at all? I.e. the normal discount on an 7.5 billion SEK order is 1 billion SEK.

The next customer who wants to make an equal order now knows that they will at least get the same discount as SAS and that they can start negociating the price down from 6.5 billion SEK?
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Old 25th Mar 2008, 09:28
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Ladusvala, as I mentioned earlier, 20 - 30% discounts on new orders are the norm - sometimes as high as 50%. According to the SAS News Release the total list price of the 27 aircraft on firm order is $830,000,000. The SEK 1bn fine is equivalent to approxiately $167,000,000 - or 20.12% of the firm order list prices. When all credits are taken into consideration I would expect that the total discount is greater than this. The grounding has had no significant effect on the pricing / discounts of the order.
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Old 25th Mar 2008, 16:00
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Torquelink said.....


"The SEK 1bn fine"


I don`t think that SAS has the authority to "fine" anybody, least of all Bombardier. The SEK 1bn is compensation negotiated between the two parties for Bombardier`s mistake of selling SAS an aircraft that SAS mechanics couldn`t maintain properly.
In reality, the compensation is the whole or part of the normal discount which would be negotiated during a deal of this magnitude, as others on this thread have explained.
The main point is that everyone appears to be happy. Fantastic!
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