Show me the money! AA pilots opener ;-)
As a continuation of some media articles last week about the billion dollars (+) in United Airlines' Frequent Flier cash fund (estimated by one analyst to be worth billions), how much money is kept in American Airlines' Frequent Flier fund, and were these funds detached from AA-as happened at United-and put into a bank 'vehicle' somewhere?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its not the good old days, but some people really need to review the past.
IF 9-11 hadn't happened, my stock options would have been worth well over a quarter of a million dollars.
A 737 captain would be getting over 200k a year.
retirement would be worth 60 percent of that.
Our health care would be better. We would be flying less and enjoying life more.
9-11 was used by some ''corporate terrorists'' to screw pilots...lose your pension, half pay and more...YOU HAVE TOO or the airline shuts down. BUT WE MUST PAY MANAGEMENT A 30 MILLION BONUS.
I'm with the AA boys on this one. FIGHT and get stuff like "the good old days" back.
And you guys who took jobs with the start ups, flying captain on an A320 for 95k...you are part of the problem and not the solution. Virgin, Skybus and the lot...
To the AA guys...save some bucks for a strike...it won't last too long with BUSYBODYBUSH in the white house.
BUT TAKE OUR profession back.
IF 9-11 hadn't happened, my stock options would have been worth well over a quarter of a million dollars.
A 737 captain would be getting over 200k a year.
retirement would be worth 60 percent of that.
Our health care would be better. We would be flying less and enjoying life more.
9-11 was used by some ''corporate terrorists'' to screw pilots...lose your pension, half pay and more...YOU HAVE TOO or the airline shuts down. BUT WE MUST PAY MANAGEMENT A 30 MILLION BONUS.
I'm with the AA boys on this one. FIGHT and get stuff like "the good old days" back.
And you guys who took jobs with the start ups, flying captain on an A320 for 95k...you are part of the problem and not the solution. Virgin, Skybus and the lot...
To the AA guys...save some bucks for a strike...it won't last too long with BUSYBODYBUSH in the white house.
BUT TAKE OUR profession back.
Faheel - a voice of reality that sadly wil be like the loons cry, a faint call in the wilderness. Sad to say the recent hard times do not seem to have induced the slightest bit of reality into the AA pilots. Rather it seems to be - wait for the screw to turn and then we'll get em.
Looking at what the pilots are asking for roughly equates to the entire annual profit of AA. Pilots want 600 odd mill and then some and airline made 580 odd year to date. This is so typical of the self important pilot "we are the world" mentality. Guys, wake up and figure how you'll do in the morning with no reservation clerks, check in people, baggage handers and the other poor souls who are all just overhead.
You want a long term well paid job you need a company making serious long term cash. 5 quarters out of twenty does not cut it. Look at the pilots making real cash, UPS, FEDEX and Southwest and look at their employers profits over the last 5 year compared to AA. It tells the story.
If you can get it, go for it but your regulated monopoly is gone and you are just going to have to live in todays world. Negotiating ploy or not, asking for that kind of cash is just making you look dumb or stupid, take your pick.
20driver
Looking at what the pilots are asking for roughly equates to the entire annual profit of AA. Pilots want 600 odd mill and then some and airline made 580 odd year to date. This is so typical of the self important pilot "we are the world" mentality. Guys, wake up and figure how you'll do in the morning with no reservation clerks, check in people, baggage handers and the other poor souls who are all just overhead.
You want a long term well paid job you need a company making serious long term cash. 5 quarters out of twenty does not cut it. Look at the pilots making real cash, UPS, FEDEX and Southwest and look at their employers profits over the last 5 year compared to AA. It tells the story.
If you can get it, go for it but your regulated monopoly is gone and you are just going to have to live in todays world. Negotiating ploy or not, asking for that kind of cash is just making you look dumb or stupid, take your pick.
20driver
Last edited by 20driver; 27th Oct 2007 at 03:37.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the deregulated environment AA tripled in size and made money paying wages like these.
Oil went from $10 a barrel up to $90 a barrel and the airlines are still making money. Their costs can go up and they can still make money. But, maybe they would have to charge something more for a ticket? The AA pilots will probably not get what they ask for, but I imagine they will get more than if they went in asking to start negotiating from where they are today. More than they would get if they sent faheel or 20driver in to negotiate some new concessions.
BTW AA grew and made money at the old wages. The pilots are asking for what they made in 1992. The managers are making substantially more than they did in 92.
The wages will be going up again. And the line of guys out there who are gladly willing to sell their services for less and less seems to be a bit smaller now. It will not jut be AA asking for more. The only reason wages are where they are right now is the use of the bankruptcy courts. Now it is our turn to get some of that back.
At around $190 an hour for a 737 Captain, Southwest Airlines seems to be making money too.
Oil went from $10 a barrel up to $90 a barrel and the airlines are still making money. Their costs can go up and they can still make money. But, maybe they would have to charge something more for a ticket? The AA pilots will probably not get what they ask for, but I imagine they will get more than if they went in asking to start negotiating from where they are today. More than they would get if they sent faheel or 20driver in to negotiate some new concessions.
BTW AA grew and made money at the old wages. The pilots are asking for what they made in 1992. The managers are making substantially more than they did in 92.
The wages will be going up again. And the line of guys out there who are gladly willing to sell their services for less and less seems to be a bit smaller now. It will not jut be AA asking for more. The only reason wages are where they are right now is the use of the bankruptcy courts. Now it is our turn to get some of that back.
At around $190 an hour for a 737 Captain, Southwest Airlines seems to be making money too.
AA has never made money on a five year average and only grew as a result of being a protected player in a government-rigged system. They could pay plenty because people had no choice and the prices were fixed. Airlines simply passed along what every they paid and the customer swallowed it.
That is all gone and what is really amazing is that the AA pilots don’t get it. The whip sawing of wages in the long run hurts the pilots and the industry. Asking for stupid amounts of money you are not going to get makes you look stupid. Work it out, 3% a year compounded for 10 years is a lot more than 50 per cent one year and handing it back 2 years later.
Forgot what it was, it isn’t that way anymore for pilots and a lot of other people. At one time there was a group of engineers called coal gasification engineers and they earned more than any other group. The world switched to natural gas and bingo, out on their butts.
The only thing that will change this is if enough people stop entering the pilot job market. Fact is being a pilot is a relatively easy job with a low entry level for what the job pays. It has never being easier to train to be a pilot and adjusted for inflation I suspect never cheaper.
The bankruptcy laws have hurt pilots but mostly because of seniority. Construction companies go tits up weekly but do the tradesman take a hit? Hell no, they just sign up with the Big Construction Mark IV when it opens on Monday at the same wages Mark III was paying Friday. Pilots give up that option by tying themselves to the company and its frequently useless management. Hate to say it but the best thing that could happen is for a lot of these companies to go bust and let their gates go to new companies that can run things, make money and pay a market wage.
I wish the AA guys well but they clearly don’t get it. It ain’t what it was and it never will be.
20driver
That is all gone and what is really amazing is that the AA pilots don’t get it. The whip sawing of wages in the long run hurts the pilots and the industry. Asking for stupid amounts of money you are not going to get makes you look stupid. Work it out, 3% a year compounded for 10 years is a lot more than 50 per cent one year and handing it back 2 years later.
Forgot what it was, it isn’t that way anymore for pilots and a lot of other people. At one time there was a group of engineers called coal gasification engineers and they earned more than any other group. The world switched to natural gas and bingo, out on their butts.
The only thing that will change this is if enough people stop entering the pilot job market. Fact is being a pilot is a relatively easy job with a low entry level for what the job pays. It has never being easier to train to be a pilot and adjusted for inflation I suspect never cheaper.
The bankruptcy laws have hurt pilots but mostly because of seniority. Construction companies go tits up weekly but do the tradesman take a hit? Hell no, they just sign up with the Big Construction Mark IV when it opens on Monday at the same wages Mark III was paying Friday. Pilots give up that option by tying themselves to the company and its frequently useless management. Hate to say it but the best thing that could happen is for a lot of these companies to go bust and let their gates go to new companies that can run things, make money and pay a market wage.
I wish the AA guys well but they clearly don’t get it. It ain’t what it was and it never will be.
20driver
Last edited by 20driver; 27th Oct 2007 at 03:38.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: woop woop
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I should have said accept the reality of what the airline world
has become today.
The problem is ( for all of us I might add) is that the travelling public will no longer tolerate the fares they paid even a few years back.
In those days airfares were high, costs were high, no one heard of LCC.s then (save for Southwest) and there were far fewer airlines. Salaries were higher because costs were passed onto Joe Public.
Fast forward to the present time and we are where we are today.
LCC,s have driven down costs by paying less across the board for everything except for fuel, and as that rises they are going to want to drive costs down in other areas even further.
Its not just the low cost carriers American has to compete against either. On the international front Asian airlines have newer a/c, a better product and much lower costs, just look at travel magazine surveys that all show that foreign airlines pretty much sweep the board in customer satisfaction I don't remember seeing any US airline anywhere near the top 5 or 6 , so where do you think the travelling public are going to put their hard earned bucks when they go overseas?
At the high yield end it is vital for any airline to provide the best product to attract the big money and from what I see by and large the US majors come up short.
So salaries are always going to be under pressure, small pay rises are going to be the order of the day, and sad to say, the good old days are long gone, never to return. If I were just starting out in this industry right now the honest truth is I probably would'nt
And that folks is my take on it
has become today.
The problem is ( for all of us I might add) is that the travelling public will no longer tolerate the fares they paid even a few years back.
In those days airfares were high, costs were high, no one heard of LCC.s then (save for Southwest) and there were far fewer airlines. Salaries were higher because costs were passed onto Joe Public.
Fast forward to the present time and we are where we are today.
LCC,s have driven down costs by paying less across the board for everything except for fuel, and as that rises they are going to want to drive costs down in other areas even further.
Its not just the low cost carriers American has to compete against either. On the international front Asian airlines have newer a/c, a better product and much lower costs, just look at travel magazine surveys that all show that foreign airlines pretty much sweep the board in customer satisfaction I don't remember seeing any US airline anywhere near the top 5 or 6 , so where do you think the travelling public are going to put their hard earned bucks when they go overseas?
At the high yield end it is vital for any airline to provide the best product to attract the big money and from what I see by and large the US majors come up short.
So salaries are always going to be under pressure, small pay rises are going to be the order of the day, and sad to say, the good old days are long gone, never to return. If I were just starting out in this industry right now the honest truth is I probably would'nt
And that folks is my take on it
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
People don't get it.
Jet Balu, Skyburst, Virginal and the like are run on the cheap...and it always catches up with you. Remember Valentine's day?
Southwest hedged fuel very well and that is why they are profitable.
OIL is now over 90 bucks a barrel...and you don't think that will get passed on to the consumer?
And with the huge delays in the US system, cheap will not win out.
American pilots will get a good piece of the pie and it will start the ball rolling for all pilots.
Imagine the ad: Virgin pays their captains 95k....we pay twice as much...do you really think you will be better off with a cheap pilot?
Jet Balu, Skyburst, Virginal and the like are run on the cheap...and it always catches up with you. Remember Valentine's day?
Southwest hedged fuel very well and that is why they are profitable.
OIL is now over 90 bucks a barrel...and you don't think that will get passed on to the consumer?
And with the huge delays in the US system, cheap will not win out.
American pilots will get a good piece of the pie and it will start the ball rolling for all pilots.
Imagine the ad: Virgin pays their captains 95k....we pay twice as much...do you really think you will be better off with a cheap pilot?
SkyGod
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
1 Post
Asking for stupid amounts of money you are not going to get makes you look stupid.
Sad to say the recent hard times do not seem to have induced the slightest bit of reality into the AA pilots.
Negotiating ploy or not, publically asking for that kind of cash is just making you look dunb or stupid, take your pick.
Take your pick..
What is your problem with AA pilots Mr. 20driver?
Did AA turn you down for a job?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually AA more than tripled in size since the end of deregulation. AA never even flew international routes prior to deregulation.
Slot? Please do not be so ignorant. Domestic US only 4 airports are slot controlled. Perhaps the international stuff on some routes yes, but the bulk of the AA flying is not slot controlled.
And Southwest makes money paying these kinds of wages.
Slot? Please do not be so ignorant. Domestic US only 4 airports are slot controlled. Perhaps the international stuff on some routes yes, but the bulk of the AA flying is not slot controlled.
And Southwest makes money paying these kinds of wages.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Various
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Junior Man - Edited slot to gate - and try getting one at any major North American airport. They are all locked up.
Nothing against AA pilots, one fixes my plane and I ski with a few every year.
I find it sad to see lots of very hard working airline employees getting screwed over. My IR examiner had to go back to work at the FAA after having his USAIR pension stolen. But so have many others in this economy. Piloting a plane is simply not the leveraged position it once was. Nothing to do with the pilots as much as the airline industry. It, like so many others has changed, and it will never be what it was.
The pilot unions have had their heads in the sand for years. They knew the pensions were grossly underfunded but did nothing about it. Asking for 50% increases is more of the same old same old.
I wish the AA pilots good luck, starting with that position they are going to need it.
20driver
Nothing against AA pilots, one fixes my plane and I ski with a few every year.
I find it sad to see lots of very hard working airline employees getting screwed over. My IR examiner had to go back to work at the FAA after having his USAIR pension stolen. But so have many others in this economy. Piloting a plane is simply not the leveraged position it once was. Nothing to do with the pilots as much as the airline industry. It, like so many others has changed, and it will never be what it was.
The pilot unions have had their heads in the sand for years. They knew the pensions were grossly underfunded but did nothing about it. Asking for 50% increases is more of the same old same old.
I wish the AA pilots good luck, starting with that position they are going to need it.
20driver
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually most of the pension underfunding was due to the dramatic fall in the stock market post 9/11 and then the subsequent lowering of interest rates to keep the economy moving. So the value of the assets suddenly became less and the amount needed to be in the account became substantially more due to the low interest rates.
Gates? Most of the LCC and other new entrant carriers seem to have little problems getting them. They have also been awarded slots at slot controlled airport as well.
Maybe piloting a plane is going to be increasing in value, at least if pilots will start to realize that it is at least worth what it was in 1992.
Gates? Most of the LCC and other new entrant carriers seem to have little problems getting them. They have also been awarded slots at slot controlled airport as well.
Maybe piloting a plane is going to be increasing in value, at least if pilots will start to realize that it is at least worth what it was in 1992.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pension plans were not grossly underfunded...but they were underfunded...indeed I would have settled for 75 percent of my promised pension instead of 25 percent as the PBGC will cover.
Slots were done away with in the domestic US market by act of congress around the year 2000...that is why so many airports are overscheduled and have such huge delays...no corresponding increase in infrastructure...GIVE ME THE CAB any day.
Junior man is quite right...Southwest is now the best paying airline in the US...they make a profit due to fuel hedging.
for all those who say pilots have to be realistic about pay...how come airline management pay and perks has gone up while pilot pay has gone down? Doesn't management have to be realistic...its all about negotiations!
1992 pay, compensated for 15 years of buying power would be just fine.
Slots were done away with in the domestic US market by act of congress around the year 2000...that is why so many airports are overscheduled and have such huge delays...no corresponding increase in infrastructure...GIVE ME THE CAB any day.
Junior man is quite right...Southwest is now the best paying airline in the US...they make a profit due to fuel hedging.
for all those who say pilots have to be realistic about pay...how come airline management pay and perks has gone up while pilot pay has gone down? Doesn't management have to be realistic...its all about negotiations!
1992 pay, compensated for 15 years of buying power would be just fine.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the possible exceptions of UAL and DAL, managements pay has gone up because they have been able to keep the airline actually going in the face of a recession, high oil prices, and without their efforts, many pilots today, whom are employeed, would have long been out of a job.
Take AA for example.
Dispite massive losses over the last few years, they are now making a small profit.
Perhaps it would have been best for the senior management to have simply sold off the unprifitable routes that AA had, and concentrated on just a few...and promptly tossed out on the street the malcontents who now seemingly want to push AA back into the red, once again.
For AA to remain competative, costs must be contained, and cash stored up for both fleet renewal and future downturns in the economy...to do otherwise is extremely foolish, from a sound business perspective.
Most line pilots today have long forgotten economics 101 (provided they even understood it in the first place) and generally find great difficulty in balancing their own checkbooks, let alone how to tell management about financial matters with the company.
In short, the AA pilots can go pound sand, and I fully expect AA management to tell them likewise.
In fact, I would invite the AA pilots to go promptly on strike, and see their airline go just as promptly belly up...for it would serve them right for being such fools in the first place.
The Sky Gods at AA deserve nothing less.
Take AA for example.
Dispite massive losses over the last few years, they are now making a small profit.
Perhaps it would have been best for the senior management to have simply sold off the unprifitable routes that AA had, and concentrated on just a few...and promptly tossed out on the street the malcontents who now seemingly want to push AA back into the red, once again.
For AA to remain competative, costs must be contained, and cash stored up for both fleet renewal and future downturns in the economy...to do otherwise is extremely foolish, from a sound business perspective.
Most line pilots today have long forgotten economics 101 (provided they even understood it in the first place) and generally find great difficulty in balancing their own checkbooks, let alone how to tell management about financial matters with the company.
In short, the AA pilots can go pound sand, and I fully expect AA management to tell them likewise.
In fact, I would invite the AA pilots to go promptly on strike, and see their airline go just as promptly belly up...for it would serve them right for being such fools in the first place.
The Sky Gods at AA deserve nothing less.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Chapel Hill,NC, USA
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
American Airlines opener
Both United and American Airlines have elected more agressive union leaders, in hopes of regaining what they had. I hope for them it works, but I fear the industry has permanently changed.
It's extremely vexing to see management paying themselves outrageous raises and stiffing the workers. They seem impossible to embarass.
The opener, as reported by the press with the usual exaggerated comments, reminds one of the opener from the late, lamented Pan Am a few decades ago. Pilots were ticked at having their cars vandalized at the JFK car park, so demanded the company buy each captain a car for his commute.
"Pan Am Pilots Demand Company Cars!" was the headline in the tabloids.
I hope the American pilots have better luck than the Pan Am folks!
The old saw, "What's a pilot worth? --Whatever he can negotiate!" seems less and less of a joke,nowadays.
It's extremely vexing to see management paying themselves outrageous raises and stiffing the workers. They seem impossible to embarass.
The opener, as reported by the press with the usual exaggerated comments, reminds one of the opener from the late, lamented Pan Am a few decades ago. Pilots were ticked at having their cars vandalized at the JFK car park, so demanded the company buy each captain a car for his commute.
"Pan Am Pilots Demand Company Cars!" was the headline in the tabloids.
I hope the American pilots have better luck than the Pan Am folks!
The old saw, "What's a pilot worth? --Whatever he can negotiate!" seems less and less of a joke,nowadays.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is what you negotiate, not what you deserve.
Regarding company cars...I heard that BA pilots get picked up in a limo from home. Does anyone know if this is true?
AND GUYS, don't let THEM use the 90 bucks/bl oil price stop you...the oil companies don't cut prices.
Regarding company cars...I heard that BA pilots get picked up in a limo from home. Does anyone know if this is true?
AND GUYS, don't let THEM use the 90 bucks/bl oil price stop you...the oil companies don't cut prices.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding company cars...I heard that BA pilots get picked up in a limo from home. Does anyone know if this is true?
No? What a shame...
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AA pilots deserve a significant raise after that 23.5% cut in 03. The big bonuses in stock to the executives have shown they can afford to compensate them for their sacrifices. Arpey needs to fix this before he forces them to shut the place down to get their fair share. Management gave the employees a big slap in the face with the bonuses and they must do something before angry employees retaliate, with every right to.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,518
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see it as a fundamental lack of good leadership. I can't say to my employees, "You do the work and I take all the profit." It's neither ethical nor moral. I'm pretty sure the executives saw it coming though. You can't be increasing your own wages and cutting everyone else's and expect folks to sit back and say "ok, fine with me." If that's the way management sees it, they can go and fly all 700+ planes themselves (after getting the appropriate ratings and certificates of course).
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ft, Lauderdale,FL
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most of you guys are missing the point.
Pilots in the U.S have hit rock bottom. Since 911 our inflation adjusted wages and work rules are about what they were in the 1980's.
Trust me. We will get our money. You never get what you deserve, you get what you can negotiate! We WILL shut this baby down and we WILL get our raise! It is a mathematical certainty. Just wait and see what 10,000 pissed of pilots can accomplish on the picket line.
It's not a matter of IF but When...This is war!
Pilots in the U.S have hit rock bottom. Since 911 our inflation adjusted wages and work rules are about what they were in the 1980's.
Trust me. We will get our money. You never get what you deserve, you get what you can negotiate! We WILL shut this baby down and we WILL get our raise! It is a mathematical certainty. Just wait and see what 10,000 pissed of pilots can accomplish on the picket line.
It's not a matter of IF but When...This is war!