The Economist: Pilot Pay Rising
Guest
Posts: n/a
At the end of the day, it's all down to supply and demand. Big boom in industry in general over the last fews, more people fly, airlines expand, there's a shortage of experienced pilots, salaries rise. Just beware that the opposite also occurs - those of us who started in the early 90's I'm sure haven't forgotten. And the current slowdown in the U.S coupled with increasing payroll & fuel costs in the airlines ought to be sending warnings signals to someone.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Welsh Viking,
You say that is your first post, lets hope its also your last. What a nauseating load of old bull......................
In this world you make your own luck, let the engineers, ops staff etc sort out their own deals whilst we get on and earn a decent living.
Sapco2,
Spot on old chap!
You say that is your first post, lets hope its also your last. What a nauseating load of old bull......................
In this world you make your own luck, let the engineers, ops staff etc sort out their own deals whilst we get on and earn a decent living.
Sapco2,
Spot on old chap!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Welsh Viking,
Interesting statement, <Flying is my chosen career path. Though not because of the money!!!!!!>
So how do you intend to pay for your mortgage, loss of licence insurance, etc, etc, etc?
I'm sure that the reason most of us started down this path was because we felt we would enjoy the career, but that shouldn't alter the fact that we expect a good reward for the responsibilities we accept. I expect Doctors, Lawyers etc also pursued their careers in the belief that they would enjoy their toils; however they also expect good rewards.
The best of luck to other groups of airline staff with their pay demands. What they do is their business and I won't offer comment on their worth. They will get what they negotiate.
Regards
Exeng
Interesting statement, <Flying is my chosen career path. Though not because of the money!!!!!!>
So how do you intend to pay for your mortgage, loss of licence insurance, etc, etc, etc?
I'm sure that the reason most of us started down this path was because we felt we would enjoy the career, but that shouldn't alter the fact that we expect a good reward for the responsibilities we accept. I expect Doctors, Lawyers etc also pursued their careers in the belief that they would enjoy their toils; however they also expect good rewards.
The best of luck to other groups of airline staff with their pay demands. What they do is their business and I won't offer comment on their worth. They will get what they negotiate.
Regards
Exeng
Guest
Posts: n/a
The Guvnor :
"Not very fair for the employer who paid two or three times the amount you have getting to where you are, is it?"
I spent £40,000 and lost 2 years salary getting my Licence matey. I reckon that is about £120,000 expenditure to get where I am today. Ask around - that is fairly standard unless you get a rare sponsorship deal.
The company paid £15,000 for my 737 rating.
ARE YOU ONLY TEMPORARILY VISITING THIS PLANET OR WHAT ??????
HOW DOES £15,000 EVER BECOME TWO TO THREE TIMES MORE THAN £120,000 ?
We don't all move off to other companies using our employers as meal tickets - Indeed we are prevented from doing so as we are bonded for 2 - 3 years. During which time the company recoups the cost of the training by off-setting it against the salary we are paid. Come off it - you know that as well as I do !!!!
Also there is NO extra cost involved to the employer whilst you 'unfreeze' your ATPL. That part of your posting is complete BS. It's just work experience that's all.
As to the figures I posted. They were intended to demonstrate the relative worth of pilots compared to other professionals of equal standing. In my experience I see friends working in advertising / marketing earning massively more than myself for doing a job that anyone with half a brain could do.
We have to work unsociable hours at the week-ends endless changes etc.
Are we worth a salary of twice the national average ? Yes of course we are.
And if £25k is the national average then there are a lot of pilots who have suffered a long time and are still earning below national average wage then.
Without being big headed : I am a university graduate with a first class degree. I am a member of MENSA and I have eventually obtained my goal of becomming a professional pilot. I am a highly qualified intelligent professional.
I know that I could do most peoples jobs at "airline HQ" tommorrow, with my hands tied behind my back blindfolded (as indeed I suspect some of them probably do, judging by the cock ups that are made on a day to day basis)
The question is... how many of them could do my job tommorrow ? (or ever ?) Not many (or any ?)
No disrespect to anyone (oooops too late I hear you all cry !) I am sorry but that is a FACT.
I agree that once you have made it you will probably be on quite a good wage, however my point is that there is an enormous pay-back period for the MAJORITY of people who enter this profession by funding themselves. Ten years to get financially 'solvent' again and at the end of it you can only then start to reap the benefit of your investment in yourself.
What we don't need whilst all of us are struggling to pay off our debts is people telling us that we earn too much money and that we should be grateful for a job.
We are all grateful for our jobs but it is a two way thing - The companies we work for NEED us as much as we need them. A fact that we are never reminded of.
The airlines like to tell us that they are doing us a massive favour by employing us. Wrong. Without us you go broke.
Ex-military pilots and sponsorship pilots are the luck ones - and I take my hat off to them. They are in a very miniscule minority though.
This is 2001. Not 1971. Times have changed. Wake up to the fact.
Pay peanuts and you get monkeys.
"Not very fair for the employer who paid two or three times the amount you have getting to where you are, is it?"
I spent £40,000 and lost 2 years salary getting my Licence matey. I reckon that is about £120,000 expenditure to get where I am today. Ask around - that is fairly standard unless you get a rare sponsorship deal.
The company paid £15,000 for my 737 rating.
ARE YOU ONLY TEMPORARILY VISITING THIS PLANET OR WHAT ??????
HOW DOES £15,000 EVER BECOME TWO TO THREE TIMES MORE THAN £120,000 ?
We don't all move off to other companies using our employers as meal tickets - Indeed we are prevented from doing so as we are bonded for 2 - 3 years. During which time the company recoups the cost of the training by off-setting it against the salary we are paid. Come off it - you know that as well as I do !!!!
Also there is NO extra cost involved to the employer whilst you 'unfreeze' your ATPL. That part of your posting is complete BS. It's just work experience that's all.
As to the figures I posted. They were intended to demonstrate the relative worth of pilots compared to other professionals of equal standing. In my experience I see friends working in advertising / marketing earning massively more than myself for doing a job that anyone with half a brain could do.
We have to work unsociable hours at the week-ends endless changes etc.
Are we worth a salary of twice the national average ? Yes of course we are.
And if £25k is the national average then there are a lot of pilots who have suffered a long time and are still earning below national average wage then.
Without being big headed : I am a university graduate with a first class degree. I am a member of MENSA and I have eventually obtained my goal of becomming a professional pilot. I am a highly qualified intelligent professional.
I know that I could do most peoples jobs at "airline HQ" tommorrow, with my hands tied behind my back blindfolded (as indeed I suspect some of them probably do, judging by the cock ups that are made on a day to day basis)
The question is... how many of them could do my job tommorrow ? (or ever ?) Not many (or any ?)
No disrespect to anyone (oooops too late I hear you all cry !) I am sorry but that is a FACT.
I agree that once you have made it you will probably be on quite a good wage, however my point is that there is an enormous pay-back period for the MAJORITY of people who enter this profession by funding themselves. Ten years to get financially 'solvent' again and at the end of it you can only then start to reap the benefit of your investment in yourself.
What we don't need whilst all of us are struggling to pay off our debts is people telling us that we earn too much money and that we should be grateful for a job.
We are all grateful for our jobs but it is a two way thing - The companies we work for NEED us as much as we need them. A fact that we are never reminded of.
The airlines like to tell us that they are doing us a massive favour by employing us. Wrong. Without us you go broke.
Ex-military pilots and sponsorship pilots are the luck ones - and I take my hat off to them. They are in a very miniscule minority though.
This is 2001. Not 1971. Times have changed. Wake up to the fact.
Pay peanuts and you get monkeys.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Invalid Delete,
Best not to take the Guv's comments too seriously, he regularly whines on with his needle stuck in the same weird groove whenever topics such as these crop up. 'Temporarily visiting the planet' is a fair description.
Regards
Exeng
Best not to take the Guv's comments too seriously, he regularly whines on with his needle stuck in the same weird groove whenever topics such as these crop up. 'Temporarily visiting the planet' is a fair description.
Regards
Exeng
Guest
Posts: n/a
Invalid Delete, I couldn't agree more with your posting. I've always said that any responsible pilot could hold down a management position but the reverse is certainly not true. In fact isn't it true that almost all the professions are getting an extremely raw deal at the moment whilst directors happily milk the profits, enjoying enhanced pension entitlements and other emoluments?
[This message has been edited by sapco2 (edited 15 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by sapco2 (edited 15 May 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Welsh Viking,
100 hours you quote is FLYING HOURS. Time spent *at work* is generally in the region of 40-50 hours a week. Take into account unsociable hours, roster disruption lack of lifestyle planning etc and *when & if* you become a pilot you'll see what we mean.
Guvnor,
My mates I graduated uni with are all building construction professionals. After having the state pay for their degree and after 5 years in industry they are all earning in excess of £45k, one was offered a job at over £60k.
These are just ordinary Quantity Surveyors in London, in a couple of years they'll be earning £50k, £60k or £70k for doing a not too difficult job. Pay in certain professions is racing ahead, why should we be left behind?
They make money for their employers and I make money for my employers. Worst they can find themselves in is down at the dole office. Bit different for the rest of us!
Having said that my sister has 7 years experience as a teacher and earns a whopping £21k.......but that's up to her!
As for pilots costing the company money, well the cadets my company take on represent less than 10% of the recruited workforce. That leaves 90% who are either ex mil, self sponsored or have payed their bonds off from other companies. The cadets are on a reduced salary for 5 years paying back their training costs. Hardly costing the company much is it?
[This message has been edited by Scottie (edited 15 May 2001).]
100 hours you quote is FLYING HOURS. Time spent *at work* is generally in the region of 40-50 hours a week. Take into account unsociable hours, roster disruption lack of lifestyle planning etc and *when & if* you become a pilot you'll see what we mean.
Guvnor,
My mates I graduated uni with are all building construction professionals. After having the state pay for their degree and after 5 years in industry they are all earning in excess of £45k, one was offered a job at over £60k.
These are just ordinary Quantity Surveyors in London, in a couple of years they'll be earning £50k, £60k or £70k for doing a not too difficult job. Pay in certain professions is racing ahead, why should we be left behind?
They make money for their employers and I make money for my employers. Worst they can find themselves in is down at the dole office. Bit different for the rest of us!
Having said that my sister has 7 years experience as a teacher and earns a whopping £21k.......but that's up to her!
As for pilots costing the company money, well the cadets my company take on represent less than 10% of the recruited workforce. That leaves 90% who are either ex mil, self sponsored or have payed their bonds off from other companies. The cadets are on a reduced salary for 5 years paying back their training costs. Hardly costing the company much is it?
[This message has been edited by Scottie (edited 15 May 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
The cost of living in the UK has spiralled IMHO due to high taxes. My in flight allowances pay for my journey to/from work. I am a FO with a charter company on 75/76 and my basic is par for the course. On paper, it looks ok, (£36), and above the average UK income. My mortgage is £120k, not unusual, I have an average car, and a small motorbike which I use for "running around" because it's cheaper than using the car. I do all my own house repairs, my furniture is all at least ten years old and if I have friends round for dinner I have to borrow stuff from neighbours or it would mean sitting on the floor. I have 0 kids, and 1 girlfriend. Each month I nearly reach my £2k overdraft limit.
To live without any extravagance, requires more money than is coming in. I'm bonded for £18k over 3 years, and I like my job. It cost me about £15k all-in to gain my frozen ATPL which I was lucky enough to finance from my military gratuity.
I'm not moaning, but I do need more dosh. I have worked hard to get this job, and I work hard doing it. If I lived in Spain, I could live very well on my salary. Here in UK, it goes nowhere. I don't expect to earn £50k as a FO. I reckon £42k as a basic would pay my bills and leave enough for a round of golf (which I can't afford at the moment).
That would mean a 16% minimum increase. I don't think that's unreasonable.
Our pay is in need of a review. It would be interesting to ask the SLF how much they think we should be paid. Even more so if they'd just got home safely after an EFATO!
To live without any extravagance, requires more money than is coming in. I'm bonded for £18k over 3 years, and I like my job. It cost me about £15k all-in to gain my frozen ATPL which I was lucky enough to finance from my military gratuity.
I'm not moaning, but I do need more dosh. I have worked hard to get this job, and I work hard doing it. If I lived in Spain, I could live very well on my salary. Here in UK, it goes nowhere. I don't expect to earn £50k as a FO. I reckon £42k as a basic would pay my bills and leave enough for a round of golf (which I can't afford at the moment).
That would mean a 16% minimum increase. I don't think that's unreasonable.
Our pay is in need of a review. It would be interesting to ask the SLF how much they think we should be paid. Even more so if they'd just got home safely after an EFATO!
Guest
Posts: n/a
I totally agree with Invalid Delete and similar postings. I retired as a 767 Captain 3 years ago to run my own business and it was the best thing I ever did. The pay and conditions for most jobs in the 757/767 contract field AEI, Transavia, and various assorted banrupt charter companies were, upon relection, a joke... £3,000 a month including allowance. The market place will eventually change the pay and conditions of pilots. While there are still some self-improvers looking for jobs, the supply of new pilots is grinding to a halt. Who has got £75,000 for an approved course? My only regret is that I did not start my business 10 years ago. If you want to fly , buy yourself a light aircraft. The profession is not worth the effort, expensive or the lousy conditions. See www.lartington.com
Guest
Posts: n/a
RVR 800---
Just look at the 56% that the Comair pilots turned down, now thats STUPID. And these guys actually thought that they would be integrated INTO the Delta seniority list. They must have been smokin' dope, the strong stuff from south of the border.
Just look at the 56% that the Comair pilots turned down, now thats STUPID. And these guys actually thought that they would be integrated INTO the Delta seniority list. They must have been smokin' dope, the strong stuff from south of the border.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ok,well let's get things into perspective, you are at home, you have a new baby, another two young kids, the outside temperature is minus 5C and your heating didn't come on this morning. Do you think that your heating engineer is suddenly worth loads of money? That's the equivalent of an EFATO. The fact is that everybody want's to be a pilot in spite of the facts which have been spelt out in graphic detail about the costs of becoming a pilot and the sad fact that most pilots live beyond their means. The reality is that so many people want to be a pilot that the salary scales are depressed in consequence. Can I suggest that 50% of you seek alternative careers in order that the remaining 50% have a better chance of negotiating better salaries? Somehow I feel that it would be easier to convince my cat to become a vegan?
In the real world, salaries are linked to supply and demand. That's why baggage handlers and loo cleaners earn so much!
No street cred in strutting around proclaiming "I clean loos" is there?
In the real world, salaries are linked to supply and demand. That's why baggage handlers and loo cleaners earn so much!
No street cred in strutting around proclaiming "I clean loos" is there?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Gov, if management want their pilots doing 100 hours p.m., then THEY (the "managers") will see that they (the pilots) are scheduled that way. I'm happy to fly the hours I'm rostered for, and upon which the "managers" budget the operation of the business.
The remuneration I receive is "healthy", however, in return I lose out on time at home with my family. The average non-flying airline employee (including mechanics), is able to spend EVERY night at home, and is guaranteed week-ends and public holidays "off" - pilots are not afforded those luxuries, nor are we paid overtime for working outside the 9 to 5, 5-days a week work patterns.
The topic of pilots' salaries is an eternal source of incredible envy....nay - JEALOUSY ...by those OUTSIDE the profession, to whom I say, "Sure, you can be a pilot too - and if it is as easy as we are all told it is, AND the financial rewards are far in excess of what we deserve, JOIN us. You'd be a FOOL if you don't...wouldn't you??"
[This message has been edited by Kaptin M (edited 15 May 2001).]
The remuneration I receive is "healthy", however, in return I lose out on time at home with my family. The average non-flying airline employee (including mechanics), is able to spend EVERY night at home, and is guaranteed week-ends and public holidays "off" - pilots are not afforded those luxuries, nor are we paid overtime for working outside the 9 to 5, 5-days a week work patterns.
The topic of pilots' salaries is an eternal source of incredible envy....nay - JEALOUSY ...by those OUTSIDE the profession, to whom I say, "Sure, you can be a pilot too - and if it is as easy as we are all told it is, AND the financial rewards are far in excess of what we deserve, JOIN us. You'd be a FOOL if you don't...wouldn't you??"
[This message has been edited by Kaptin M (edited 15 May 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Im in the mood to play devils advocate here so please bear with me.
The fact that our training costs so much is not necessarily a reason to demand a high salary but some form of tax relief on the training. The fact that we work antisocial ours in not unique to our profession. The fact that we have a responsibility to the travelling public is not exclusive to pilots. Train, tube & bus drivers do a similar job, albeit without the training. But hey look there are people flying in our airspace with non European licences getting similar salaries. I don't know how much it costs to train a train driver but the recent accident spate prooves its a hazardoud profession also.
We as pilots is our own worst enemies. Unless we are able to forge a european pilots council, whereby all 757 drivers are paid the same, all 767 drivers are paid the same etc etc etc, and companies are allowed to then offer their own benfit package there will always be someone who will do your job for less. I have seen pilots who are desoarate for their first job, join midland and start whingeing like F*** within 3 months of being there, suddenly forgetting their time in the q waiting for that first opportunity.
i believe that pilots deserve a reasonable standatd of living. I believe that pilots should be paid a salary significantly above average and there should be annual increments to account for experience. But should a 757/767 pilot at BA be paid anymore than a n RJ pilot based in Birmingham for example. Market forces will determin the answer to that and eventually the equation comes down to what is the lowest level of experienece we are prepared to fill that vacancy with and what pathetic figure can we get away with paying him/her?
Its a toughie which is why you have to find a job u r happy with and accept the renumeration.
------------------
Big Johnson Casinos "Liquor up front Poker in the rear"
The fact that our training costs so much is not necessarily a reason to demand a high salary but some form of tax relief on the training. The fact that we work antisocial ours in not unique to our profession. The fact that we have a responsibility to the travelling public is not exclusive to pilots. Train, tube & bus drivers do a similar job, albeit without the training. But hey look there are people flying in our airspace with non European licences getting similar salaries. I don't know how much it costs to train a train driver but the recent accident spate prooves its a hazardoud profession also.
We as pilots is our own worst enemies. Unless we are able to forge a european pilots council, whereby all 757 drivers are paid the same, all 767 drivers are paid the same etc etc etc, and companies are allowed to then offer their own benfit package there will always be someone who will do your job for less. I have seen pilots who are desoarate for their first job, join midland and start whingeing like F*** within 3 months of being there, suddenly forgetting their time in the q waiting for that first opportunity.
i believe that pilots deserve a reasonable standatd of living. I believe that pilots should be paid a salary significantly above average and there should be annual increments to account for experience. But should a 757/767 pilot at BA be paid anymore than a n RJ pilot based in Birmingham for example. Market forces will determin the answer to that and eventually the equation comes down to what is the lowest level of experienece we are prepared to fill that vacancy with and what pathetic figure can we get away with paying him/her?
Its a toughie which is why you have to find a job u r happy with and accept the renumeration.
------------------
Big Johnson Casinos "Liquor up front Poker in the rear"
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just got a letter from BALPA this morning in response to my email regarding impending pay negotiations at BA. Said letter thanks me for my comments and promises that all evidence is being collated to form the basis of our claim for a reasonable pay deal.
I don't want a reasonable pay deal... We're talking about a grade A, class one, first rate, top notch, premier, pay deal.
If our union is suggesting we start asking only for something reasonable then we will simply end up with another pathetic sub-inflationary nudge towards what we deserve.
So, if you have not already done so.... please add your support and urge those at New Road, Harlington, to get their rear ends into gear and start representing us properly. I certainly don't pay them an obscene amount of money every month to take the side of our management!!!!
Yours contemplating giving myself a 1% payrise if nothing impressive happens....
Fat Tony
I don't want a reasonable pay deal... We're talking about a grade A, class one, first rate, top notch, premier, pay deal.
If our union is suggesting we start asking only for something reasonable then we will simply end up with another pathetic sub-inflationary nudge towards what we deserve.
So, if you have not already done so.... please add your support and urge those at New Road, Harlington, to get their rear ends into gear and start representing us properly. I certainly don't pay them an obscene amount of money every month to take the side of our management!!!!
Yours contemplating giving myself a 1% payrise if nothing impressive happens....
Fat Tony
Guest
Posts: n/a
Before we go any further stop comparing our jobs with anyone elses whether it be train drivers, lorry drivers, doctors, cabin crew, engineers, ops people or whoever. Our jobs are unique and and we are just about one of the most highly regulated groups of wrokers in any industry.
We will only get what we can negotiate for ourselves and if you let the comparison to other workers from within or outside our profession/industry then you might as well compare chalk with cheese. You have to look at where the company gets its income from. What percentage is from ticket sales, how much from sales of other products etc. It all has to be taken into account.
It is no use looking only at ticket sales for example. If the company makes a lot of revenue from on-board sales of drinks or duty free goods or whatever then they can only be making that revenue as long as their a/c are flying. Once you have isolated the total amounts of revenue that company is generating do you then look at the cost of the pilots salaries and benefits. You will probably be suprised to see how small the percentage is.
There was an article in the ‘Independant’ today about how Ryanair believe that they can eventually offer flights for free as the amount of revenue they can generate from on-board sales of ‘extras’ can more than offset the loss of revenue from a seat-only sale. There was also a connected item that tried to show what percentage of the ticket price covered different costs. I don’t remember all the details but the comparison was for a £120 ticket to Rome (it didn’t specify from where, for who or what type of ticket) and a total of just over 6% was for flight deck salaries.
I am sure that someone can come up with figures for various airlines but if we are to assume that 6% of a fare goes to cover crew costs then some one negotiating for a 30% rise in pay to bring their salary back to a level it would have been, had the companies had the integrity to give back what they had taken when times were hard, then the increases in costs still wouldn’t amount much and they would recover any extra expense from the passengers anyway.
Just like the oil companies when it comes to rises in the price of oil. Oil price goes up and the price at the pump goes up immediately. Price of oil goes down, price at the pump stays high for much longer. Times were tough during the last recession and there was a surplus of pilots and terms and conditions were generally eroded. During the last few ‘good’ years though the companies have been too greedy to give back what they took from us so now that we are an increasingly rare commodity we have to make sure that they realise that the ‘going rate’ is about to increase dramatically.
Ignore comments from the likes of the Guvnor. He hasn’t even managed to get his airline off the ground and was educated by the Lorenzo school of economics but tries to fool us with his pseudo-socialist ideals. He selectively chooses to ignore the fact that it is poor management that brings companies down.
If you are a pilot for an airline have a look at how many people your company employs overall per aircraft operated. Look at how many of those are ‘managers’. Start to compare ratios and overall performance of the company. My experience is that as a company grows so does the amount of ‘extra baggage’ that poor management require to justify their existence. They are only interested in their bonuses which are dependent on what they can save from spending out of their budgets but they surround themselves poor quality personnel so that they can claim for a larger budget in the first place and then pay less for the poor quality and so generate a bigger bonus.
For example, an expanding UK airline now has so many office personnel to keep the airline running that the poor quality of management have started to grow their little empires, yet the quality of service provided is continually going down. We have all seen the threads on how much fuel to carry and this airline used to be one of those that produced league tables to try and get the amount of extra fuel carried down to miniscule levels. The practice was eventually stopped when someone pointed out that it would be far more realistic to keep a record of how much fuel was actually ‘burned’ and then they could see who was more efficient a pilot. At the end of the day though they were talking about roughly a tonne of fuel per flight and the cost of carrying that extra fuel would have amounted to less that £100 per flight (very much less usually).
Now this UK airline has all these extra office staff and they don’t keep league tables (officially) any more but with all these new managers to help make the company even more efficient there are still situations where a flight is only half sold but at the remote destination a full load of catering has been ordered and loaded and carried all the way back. Never mind the waste of the food but the extra catering is at least twice the weight of an extra tonne of fuel. Multiply that by all the flights and you can see where the real costs and waste lie. Not with the pilots doing their jobs efficiently and safely and being so heavily regulated but demanding a respectable rate of pay for their professionalism but with the pathetic, piss poor management that are too far up their own backsides looking after their bonuses to even realise that they are costing the company much more than paying the going rate for the flight deck, which would also keep them happy enough not to want to even apply to work for a different airline.
So don’t compare pilots to anyone else. Yes it takes more than pilots to run an airline and many of the workers will be jealous of our ‘glamorous’ jobs but don’t let poor managers like the Guvnor use them as counter arguments. If their jobs are as highly skilled as ours then let them negotiate the going rate for themselves. We have to look after our own interests and if someone like the Guvnor, who claims to know about our industry, tries to fog the issue with bovine excrement propaganda like the ‘100 hours a month’ argument it is not even worth replying to him.
I am rostered to fly 73 hours this month but a poor manager like the Guvnor doesn’t even realise that that involves 165 hours of ‘DUTY TIME’ and that doesn’t include the extra 2 hours per duty that I give to the company for free because there is no way in real life that a 1 hour report before ETD would even cover the time it takes to do all the other work and preparation before or after a flight. In April there are 31 days whch equates to 4.4 weeks (7 days). That means at least 8 weekend days which the vast majority of the ‘office’ staff get off. That leaves 31 - 8 = 23 work days for most managers. 165 duty hours / 23 days = 7.2 hours average per working day (not including the extra 2 hours on average I ‘donate’). 5 working days x 7.2 hours = 36 hours duty (WORK) per average managers/office workers 7 day week and that is just above the average for the UK. That is a reasonably normal month. A busy summer month and those numbers increase dramatically. Add to that the irregular days and hours we work unlike the managers and office workers who know they have weekends off and work regularly 9 to 5, the fatigue that those irregualar hours cause plus the amount of regulation we are subject to such a medicals and sim assessments and you can begin to see where poor managers like the Guvnor mislead the people and try to make out that we are overpaid primadonnas.
Negotiate for what we are worth. We are a valuable commodity which is becoming a dwindling resource. Do not for one minute believe that our salaries have such a large impact on the company bottom line as the poor managers would like you to beieve. We are professionals who have trained and are continually training and are responsible for operating major assets of the airline. The time has come for us to stop wimping out over pay and conditions. We are worth more than the pathetic propaganda that has been fed to us over the years by conniving beancounters who are on to a golden handshake whether they are successful or not. Stand firm.
We will only get what we can negotiate for ourselves and if you let the comparison to other workers from within or outside our profession/industry then you might as well compare chalk with cheese. You have to look at where the company gets its income from. What percentage is from ticket sales, how much from sales of other products etc. It all has to be taken into account.
It is no use looking only at ticket sales for example. If the company makes a lot of revenue from on-board sales of drinks or duty free goods or whatever then they can only be making that revenue as long as their a/c are flying. Once you have isolated the total amounts of revenue that company is generating do you then look at the cost of the pilots salaries and benefits. You will probably be suprised to see how small the percentage is.
There was an article in the ‘Independant’ today about how Ryanair believe that they can eventually offer flights for free as the amount of revenue they can generate from on-board sales of ‘extras’ can more than offset the loss of revenue from a seat-only sale. There was also a connected item that tried to show what percentage of the ticket price covered different costs. I don’t remember all the details but the comparison was for a £120 ticket to Rome (it didn’t specify from where, for who or what type of ticket) and a total of just over 6% was for flight deck salaries.
I am sure that someone can come up with figures for various airlines but if we are to assume that 6% of a fare goes to cover crew costs then some one negotiating for a 30% rise in pay to bring their salary back to a level it would have been, had the companies had the integrity to give back what they had taken when times were hard, then the increases in costs still wouldn’t amount much and they would recover any extra expense from the passengers anyway.
Just like the oil companies when it comes to rises in the price of oil. Oil price goes up and the price at the pump goes up immediately. Price of oil goes down, price at the pump stays high for much longer. Times were tough during the last recession and there was a surplus of pilots and terms and conditions were generally eroded. During the last few ‘good’ years though the companies have been too greedy to give back what they took from us so now that we are an increasingly rare commodity we have to make sure that they realise that the ‘going rate’ is about to increase dramatically.
Ignore comments from the likes of the Guvnor. He hasn’t even managed to get his airline off the ground and was educated by the Lorenzo school of economics but tries to fool us with his pseudo-socialist ideals. He selectively chooses to ignore the fact that it is poor management that brings companies down.
If you are a pilot for an airline have a look at how many people your company employs overall per aircraft operated. Look at how many of those are ‘managers’. Start to compare ratios and overall performance of the company. My experience is that as a company grows so does the amount of ‘extra baggage’ that poor management require to justify their existence. They are only interested in their bonuses which are dependent on what they can save from spending out of their budgets but they surround themselves poor quality personnel so that they can claim for a larger budget in the first place and then pay less for the poor quality and so generate a bigger bonus.
For example, an expanding UK airline now has so many office personnel to keep the airline running that the poor quality of management have started to grow their little empires, yet the quality of service provided is continually going down. We have all seen the threads on how much fuel to carry and this airline used to be one of those that produced league tables to try and get the amount of extra fuel carried down to miniscule levels. The practice was eventually stopped when someone pointed out that it would be far more realistic to keep a record of how much fuel was actually ‘burned’ and then they could see who was more efficient a pilot. At the end of the day though they were talking about roughly a tonne of fuel per flight and the cost of carrying that extra fuel would have amounted to less that £100 per flight (very much less usually).
Now this UK airline has all these extra office staff and they don’t keep league tables (officially) any more but with all these new managers to help make the company even more efficient there are still situations where a flight is only half sold but at the remote destination a full load of catering has been ordered and loaded and carried all the way back. Never mind the waste of the food but the extra catering is at least twice the weight of an extra tonne of fuel. Multiply that by all the flights and you can see where the real costs and waste lie. Not with the pilots doing their jobs efficiently and safely and being so heavily regulated but demanding a respectable rate of pay for their professionalism but with the pathetic, piss poor management that are too far up their own backsides looking after their bonuses to even realise that they are costing the company much more than paying the going rate for the flight deck, which would also keep them happy enough not to want to even apply to work for a different airline.
So don’t compare pilots to anyone else. Yes it takes more than pilots to run an airline and many of the workers will be jealous of our ‘glamorous’ jobs but don’t let poor managers like the Guvnor use them as counter arguments. If their jobs are as highly skilled as ours then let them negotiate the going rate for themselves. We have to look after our own interests and if someone like the Guvnor, who claims to know about our industry, tries to fog the issue with bovine excrement propaganda like the ‘100 hours a month’ argument it is not even worth replying to him.
I am rostered to fly 73 hours this month but a poor manager like the Guvnor doesn’t even realise that that involves 165 hours of ‘DUTY TIME’ and that doesn’t include the extra 2 hours per duty that I give to the company for free because there is no way in real life that a 1 hour report before ETD would even cover the time it takes to do all the other work and preparation before or after a flight. In April there are 31 days whch equates to 4.4 weeks (7 days). That means at least 8 weekend days which the vast majority of the ‘office’ staff get off. That leaves 31 - 8 = 23 work days for most managers. 165 duty hours / 23 days = 7.2 hours average per working day (not including the extra 2 hours on average I ‘donate’). 5 working days x 7.2 hours = 36 hours duty (WORK) per average managers/office workers 7 day week and that is just above the average for the UK. That is a reasonably normal month. A busy summer month and those numbers increase dramatically. Add to that the irregular days and hours we work unlike the managers and office workers who know they have weekends off and work regularly 9 to 5, the fatigue that those irregualar hours cause plus the amount of regulation we are subject to such a medicals and sim assessments and you can begin to see where poor managers like the Guvnor mislead the people and try to make out that we are overpaid primadonnas.
Negotiate for what we are worth. We are a valuable commodity which is becoming a dwindling resource. Do not for one minute believe that our salaries have such a large impact on the company bottom line as the poor managers would like you to beieve. We are professionals who have trained and are continually training and are responsible for operating major assets of the airline. The time has come for us to stop wimping out over pay and conditions. We are worth more than the pathetic propaganda that has been fed to us over the years by conniving beancounters who are on to a golden handshake whether they are successful or not. Stand firm.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Before we go any further, it might be usefull to point out that the Economist article was full of (deliberate?) distortions and inaccuracies. "..bracing for a summer of discontent...with AA..." - WHAT A LOAD OF BALONEY. Our openers don't start till then, and you can be sure the company's going to drag things out. Can't strike till released by the mediator, and that's a ways down the road, if it gets that far.
And as usual, no mention of paycuts and freezes over the past 2 decades, index-linked.
Pilot shortage? Not really - at least, not at the companies mentioned in the article.
And then there's the Welsh Viqueen: oh dear.
More inaccuracies. 50 hrs a month... Believes all that he reads in the press, that boy. "... friends with better qualifications than pilots..." - hmmm. We have several pilots with medical degrees, dental degrees, at least 2 Shuttle pilots, shall I go on? Not a promising start to your chosen career path, I'm afraid, laddie.
BUT: I do agree that it is plain silly to negotiate beyond the company's means. Reason has to take hold here, and that's the whole idea of pattern bargaining. ( Calm down, Guv, I still don't agree with you ). The fact is, Comair CAN afford to pay more, and it's workers know it. I strongly suspect the other majors are providing moral support to DL - they dread the discontent spreading to the other commuters.
And as usual, no mention of paycuts and freezes over the past 2 decades, index-linked.
Pilot shortage? Not really - at least, not at the companies mentioned in the article.
And then there's the Welsh Viqueen: oh dear.
More inaccuracies. 50 hrs a month... Believes all that he reads in the press, that boy. "... friends with better qualifications than pilots..." - hmmm. We have several pilots with medical degrees, dental degrees, at least 2 Shuttle pilots, shall I go on? Not a promising start to your chosen career path, I'm afraid, laddie.
BUT: I do agree that it is plain silly to negotiate beyond the company's means. Reason has to take hold here, and that's the whole idea of pattern bargaining. ( Calm down, Guv, I still don't agree with you ). The fact is, Comair CAN afford to pay more, and it's workers know it. I strongly suspect the other majors are providing moral support to DL - they dread the discontent spreading to the other commuters.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Not sure about one flight, but I earned mine in the Sim last night!
I agree about BALPA needing a reminder about whom they represent and why! From where I'm sitting they appear to have become a management stooge. You might have a hotel room with a trouser press thanks to BALPA (who actually uses those things?), but don't expect them to rattle the cage over salaries.
Answer to problem. Resign from BALPA, form your own company union if your size is sufficient (say over 500 pilots), affiliate with other companies if you're a small company, appoint paid, full time representatives, tell them what you want and let them lose on the unexpecting management. Be firm, realistic, and above all united.
I would be happier parting with 1% of my salary if I KNEW I was being represented properly.
I agree about BALPA needing a reminder about whom they represent and why! From where I'm sitting they appear to have become a management stooge. You might have a hotel room with a trouser press thanks to BALPA (who actually uses those things?), but don't expect them to rattle the cage over salaries.
Answer to problem. Resign from BALPA, form your own company union if your size is sufficient (say over 500 pilots), affiliate with other companies if you're a small company, appoint paid, full time representatives, tell them what you want and let them lose on the unexpecting management. Be firm, realistic, and above all united.
I would be happier parting with 1% of my salary if I KNEW I was being represented properly.
Guest
Posts: n/a
To all those of you who have no idea as to what pilots are worth !
Pilot salaries are and always will be controlled by supply and demand.
Its a bit like having your house valued, thats great ! but its only worth what somebody feels comfortable paying !
Our job demands the highest of skills, not just in being able to fly an aeroplane but in managing the whole day out, on the move in four dimensions, with other crew and dammit yes, passengers.
Every visitor i have had to the flight deck has always been amazed at how may buttons and switches and lights there are and, " do we know what they all do " To damn right we do !. we are the only profession i know of that has our skills tested twice a year in the simulator and once a year in the air! do we see surgeons or the like so assessed ? i think not ( and they dont have to spend £50,000 of their own money just to be able to apply for a job !)
So the next time i hear anybody whinging about over paid pilots, i will remind them we dont have the AA or the RAC up there, if god forbid something goes wrong with the machine, it is us, the flightdeck and cabin crew who will bring you back safely, in fact most of the time you ( the passenger) will never have known anything has happened, thats our job!!
Pilot salaries are and always will be controlled by supply and demand.
Its a bit like having your house valued, thats great ! but its only worth what somebody feels comfortable paying !
Our job demands the highest of skills, not just in being able to fly an aeroplane but in managing the whole day out, on the move in four dimensions, with other crew and dammit yes, passengers.
Every visitor i have had to the flight deck has always been amazed at how may buttons and switches and lights there are and, " do we know what they all do " To damn right we do !. we are the only profession i know of that has our skills tested twice a year in the simulator and once a year in the air! do we see surgeons or the like so assessed ? i think not ( and they dont have to spend £50,000 of their own money just to be able to apply for a job !)
So the next time i hear anybody whinging about over paid pilots, i will remind them we dont have the AA or the RAC up there, if god forbid something goes wrong with the machine, it is us, the flightdeck and cabin crew who will bring you back safely, in fact most of the time you ( the passenger) will never have known anything has happened, thats our job!!