Pilots protest over 'noxious' air
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Hard evidence?
I think we should look for some hard evidence in this case if the air was contaminated did the crew suffer any effects of this and has the aircraft had any tech log entrys for low engine or air cycle unit low oil or leaks?
I have no doublt that some of these people are genuine in the in thinking that they have sufferd from air contamination but at the moment we are a little short on hard evidence that the aircraft was the sorce on the health problems.
If the CAA is investigating the inccident then I have no doubt they would have taken a look the tech log and talked to the crew.
They will also investigate other sorces of this health problem such as something that a pax might have taken onto the aircraft, cargo (if any) or another sorce like food contamination.
The thing that I am always amazed by is that someone always accuses a company of putting profit before safety (the Ann Robinson syndrome!) when the fact of the matter is that this aircraft has flown for years with no problems. Yes the aircraft may have developed a problem when in flight but this is hardly a company policy of profit before safety and it is very hard to predict mechanical breakdown.
In short if it an't broke how can they fix it?
I have no doublt that some of these people are genuine in the in thinking that they have sufferd from air contamination but at the moment we are a little short on hard evidence that the aircraft was the sorce on the health problems.
If the CAA is investigating the inccident then I have no doubt they would have taken a look the tech log and talked to the crew.
They will also investigate other sorces of this health problem such as something that a pax might have taken onto the aircraft, cargo (if any) or another sorce like food contamination.
The thing that I am always amazed by is that someone always accuses a company of putting profit before safety (the Ann Robinson syndrome!) when the fact of the matter is that this aircraft has flown for years with no problems. Yes the aircraft may have developed a problem when in flight but this is hardly a company policy of profit before safety and it is very hard to predict mechanical breakdown.
In short if it an't broke how can they fix it?
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sammie71 are you Samantha Sabatino?
Just curious, as...
If so, you'll already know a fair bit about what you refer to as you were a passenger on the flight.
There's the article in The Sun too, as well as the contribution to the discussion thread in the Daily Telegraph
Plus your written evidence contribution to the House of Lords Select Committee on Science & Technology : Air Travel & Health
Just curious, as...
If so, you'll already know a fair bit about what you refer to as you were a passenger on the flight.
There's the article in The Sun too, as well as the contribution to the discussion thread in the Daily Telegraph
Plus your written evidence contribution to the House of Lords Select Committee on Science & Technology : Air Travel & Health
I guess cruiseships when they have Norwalk virus outbreak onboard have similar symptoms. Always possible that if there isn't a specific technical issue that this is a possibility from being in a confined environment be that train, plane, ship, office or hospital.....
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Evidence or no Evidence
"I think we should look for some hard evidence in this case..." A&C
This is a tricky one. The vested interests always say "there's no evidence..etc" and it is difficult to prove, esp if you rely on hard controlled trial scientific standards.
The same was true for BSE & the "no evidence" get out was used to great effect by the government.
There is a huge amount of anecdotal and other evidence around and several hundred aircrew (cabin & FD) have no doubt they've been affected. As a result, the Aerotoxic Assn (there's loads more info on their website) has been formed to address the issue. This is a big problem, with some types being constant offenders & a/c age seemingly an influence.
Proving it isn't so easy, especially when those responsible for oil emissions into cabin air, are staring huge issues in the face if they do so.
As a retired pilot I'm now only exposed when I fly as a passenger but I know one or two ordinary members of the public who've experienced the classic symptoms after flying but they had no idea what they were linked to. My guess is that there's thousands out there who simply don't realise what they've ingested.
This is a tricky one. The vested interests always say "there's no evidence..etc" and it is difficult to prove, esp if you rely on hard controlled trial scientific standards.
The same was true for BSE & the "no evidence" get out was used to great effect by the government.
There is a huge amount of anecdotal and other evidence around and several hundred aircrew (cabin & FD) have no doubt they've been affected. As a result, the Aerotoxic Assn (there's loads more info on their website) has been formed to address the issue. This is a big problem, with some types being constant offenders & a/c age seemingly an influence.
Proving it isn't so easy, especially when those responsible for oil emissions into cabin air, are staring huge issues in the face if they do so.
As a retired pilot I'm now only exposed when I fly as a passenger but I know one or two ordinary members of the public who've experienced the classic symptoms after flying but they had no idea what they were linked to. My guess is that there's thousands out there who simply don't realise what they've ingested.
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Smell
N1 Vibes point is spot on. Also it is important to realise that not everyone is affected by breathing this contaminated air.
It is pretty clear now that some are very susceptible others not. So caution is required when listening to those who say "I flew this type for X number of years without problem" they were probably saved by their genes.
Also none of this is necessary. There's a French company making oil without OPs/TCPs, it's used by the UK military among others.......funny old thing that.
It is pretty clear now that some are very susceptible others not. So caution is required when listening to those who say "I flew this type for X number of years without problem" they were probably saved by their genes.
Also none of this is necessary. There's a French company making oil without OPs/TCPs, it's used by the UK military among others.......funny old thing that.
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sammie71 - with so many sick (40?) I expected to find a website set up by those effected but I was unable to. Is there one?
If the flight was into Orlando would there be an NTSB investigation? Couldn't see one in the database..
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp
If the flight was into Orlando would there be an NTSB investigation? Couldn't see one in the database..
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp
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BBC have just announced that next weeks Panorama documentary (Monday 21st) will be on the subject of fumes. The home page is here but no details yet.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/default.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/default.stm
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Website
Cwatters: "I expected to find a website set up by those effected but I was unable to. Is there one?"
Try www.aerotoxic.org should give you a start.
Try www.aerotoxic.org should give you a start.
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Try www.aerotoxic.org should give you a start.
http://www.welcomeaboardtoxicairlines.com/
Click to buy will show the reviews of this 93minute film.
I saw the film and afterwards met the author and others who appeared in the film.
The subject is certainly more than a little worrying.
Further showings of the film.
Monday 21 April 2008 - 7pm
Cameo Picturehouse - Edinburgh
Cameo Picturehouse - Edinburgh
BOX OFFICE: 38 Home Street, Edinburgh, EH3 9LZ
Tel: 0131 228 2800
Friday 25th April 2008 - 7:30pm
Fenny Compton Village Hall - Warwickshire
FREE ENTRY
Cameo Picturehouse - Edinburgh
Cameo Picturehouse - Edinburgh
BOX OFFICE: 38 Home Street, Edinburgh, EH3 9LZ
Tel: 0131 228 2800
Friday 25th April 2008 - 7:30pm
Fenny Compton Village Hall - Warwickshire
FREE ENTRY
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where there is smoke there is usually fire!
I have read numerous posts and threads that span back years on contaminated air issues.
What I can not understand is if fellow pilots, crews and engineer's have been made very sick through contaminated air, and they have been brave enough to speak out in hope of a full independant investigation and change.
Why do you all shout them down? being that we are in that same metal tube. Surely we should all welcome a safe working enviroment? And know for sure the facts.
And that this should be our right? and that we should really push for change in the fear of '' what if ''
what if im next?
What I can not understand is if fellow pilots, crews and engineer's have been made very sick through contaminated air, and they have been brave enough to speak out in hope of a full independant investigation and change.
Why do you all shout them down? being that we are in that same metal tube. Surely we should all welcome a safe working enviroment? And know for sure the facts.
And that this should be our right? and that we should really push for change in the fear of '' what if ''
what if im next?
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panorama something in the air?
BBC PANORAMA PROGRAMME TONIGHT BBC1 8.30.
HEARS FROM
PILOTS/CREWS
PASSENGER'S
AND MUCH MORE!!!
you all work in the industry do something about it!!!!!
HEARS FROM
PILOTS/CREWS
PASSENGER'S
AND MUCH MORE!!!
you all work in the industry do something about it!!!!!
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Lets see how Panorama go ahead and cock this one up, I have very little faith in them!
Perhaps I will be proven wrong, but somehow I doubt it.
Ant
Perhaps I will be proven wrong, but somehow I doubt it.
Ant
I'll go a little further and say that either blame George Bush, the Iraq War, or climate change will take the blame somewhere along the line because they seem to be the cause of everything other ill in the world accordingly to the mainstream media.
I'll give it a chance though...
I can't believe this nonsense. Pilot just quoted as "we can't remember if we have clearance to land, so we throw our hands up in the air, check the runway is clear and land anyway" What utter tosh, even as a low hours PPL if i couldn't remember, i'd ask ATC. Can't believe that chap was ever a professional pilot.
Last edited by MarcJF; 21st Apr 2008 at 19:58. Reason: Typo
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Balpa Loss of Licence Insurance and OP poisioning
I would suggest that all current pilots who have loss of licence insurance also make contact with Balpa Financial Services and ask them what the position would be if they were to loose their medical through confirmed Organic Phosphate Poisoning.
The current situation, as has been demonstrated these last 18 months, is that the insurers will not make the full payment when the medical is pulled, they will make the monthly payment and they justify this by saying they are not sure of the long term medical effects of the problem. Even when the individuals concerned have written medical reports, from specialists, stating that the symptoms are unlikely to improve. On this medical evidence their medicals were pulled by the CAA.
I am aware of several pilots who are currently in this position, lost their livelihoods and have not been paid out in the manner one would expect for a long term loss of licence. Balpa’s response is similar to what one would expect. Rug, sweep problem gone.
The individuals concerned are having fights with the insurers to get what, in my view, is rightfully theirs with very little (could even say no) support from Balpa. Mind you the insurance is through a Balpa subsidiary!
Its scandalous. I make no wonder pilots keep flying with symptoms of OP poisioning.
You have been warned…
The current situation, as has been demonstrated these last 18 months, is that the insurers will not make the full payment when the medical is pulled, they will make the monthly payment and they justify this by saying they are not sure of the long term medical effects of the problem. Even when the individuals concerned have written medical reports, from specialists, stating that the symptoms are unlikely to improve. On this medical evidence their medicals were pulled by the CAA.
I am aware of several pilots who are currently in this position, lost their livelihoods and have not been paid out in the manner one would expect for a long term loss of licence. Balpa’s response is similar to what one would expect. Rug, sweep problem gone.
The individuals concerned are having fights with the insurers to get what, in my view, is rightfully theirs with very little (could even say no) support from Balpa. Mind you the insurance is through a Balpa subsidiary!
Its scandalous. I make no wonder pilots keep flying with symptoms of OP poisioning.
You have been warned…
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A few thoughts about the program: If in doubt ask! (Or had they forgotten that as well.): That nice lady does not want answers, she wants money:What was that 747? did it realy have all four donks on two pylons? or have I got too many 757 hours? Finally. Julian, good to see you looking so well these days. Though you don't look like you can still get into the same pair of trousers you could twenty years ago any more! Cabin air is fattening! 
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That 747 with the strange engines resides at Dunsfold. It can often be seen in the background during tapings of the TV show Top Gear. I believe it was a manipulated conconction that was created for the film Casino Royale. It was unfortunate that a serious issue was presented with this sort of back drop. I kept wondering why Panorama chose to present a programme with a fictious stage managed prop in the background. It didn't really send the right message ?